Flyers Goaltending: An Assessment

[radoran]

37 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Absolutely. If they can get something better, I'm 100% for it

 

I'm 1000% for it.

 

Do you think it is going to happen?

 

I mean, I hope so...

 

But then there's all "the reasons" they "need" to keep whoever and whatever on this middling bubble playoff team and it's freaking MADDENING.

 

[OccamsRazor]

On 12/28/2024 at 2:25 PM, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

I can't blame the Flyers for selecting Patrick, Rubtsov and Frost. They were picked where they were expected to be chosen.

 

 

you could always be more like Howie Roseman and trade those picks for better assets then you don't have to use them.

 

think about trading back then.

 

the thing they lack is creativity with their movements

 

i think to safe if you will and well it shows with lack of any true firepower.

 

the biggest issue with their needs teams just don't move #1C or #1D unless crazy overpayment.

[OccamsRazor]

On 12/28/2024 at 2:25 PM, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

He's a right handed Devon Toews. I don't give a **** what anyone says, Devon Toews is a fine defenseman. 

 

This would be a good bench mark.

[OccamsRazor]

22 hours ago, radoran said:

Point being, they need to deal from strength on the right side AND draft C/LW.

 

yes even Lycksell and Gendron down on the farm

[RonJeremy]

On 12/28/2024 at 9:01 PM, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Absolutely. If they can get something better, I'm 100% for it. Let someone else be enticed by the skill set Tippett has while trying to figure out the lack of toolbox and what to do about that. They can have Laughton's toolbox but no tools skill set as well. It's time to move on. I'm done with it. Let someone else be enamored by what they bring. I want real talent with real IQ. 

Laughtons tool box has a paint covered rusty screwdriver and a few loose washers.

[RonJeremy]

On 12/28/2024 at 2:44 PM, flyercanuck said:

 

If it's a centre or a defenceman and the winger is rated a hair better, sure I'll take the more important position. This is more of a "we need a player at this poisition so we're taking the "6" instead of the "8 or 9"  cause we have that.

My philosophy as well.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

On 12/30/2024 at 9:34 AM, RonJeremy said:

Laughtons tool box has a paint covered rusty screwdriver and a few loose washers.

Meh, there's a bit more there than that. As much as we rag on him, he's scoring at a .55 PPG place. That works out to 45 points on the season. There's still value in that, especially for a third/fourth liner. 

[flyer4ever]

On 12/28/2024 at 1:03 PM, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

all i am going to say is this must be Danny's masterstroke brush on this rebuild he can not afford to botch this or it will be his death knell

 

for no reason of pointing blame WHY at anyone just the fact that it did

 

Patrick

O'Brien 

Rubstov

Frost it's looking 

 

has really set this club back and i have seen many claim that Bonk is already a miss not getting into that here 

 

they can't afford anymore Laberges either if they can't hit on theses 2nds then hell they might as well as start using them for assets in trades then

 

just DON'T give them away like Holmgren did

 

for clubs that can draft they can turn them into assets so they have value

 

6 picks i would love to see them use them all if they could

 

if they do they MUST hit on at least 4 or they are fuct

All of these picks currently will be bottom of the lineup guys. More Frosts, Farabees, Laughtons, Yorks, etc etc. Why is it so hard for everyone to see this? 

[flyerdog]

A lot of it depends on their scouting, and while no one has a crystal ball, let's hope that under Danny, there is a new paradigm in place that will be more effective in vetting potential picks, since past methods have been less than successful. 

 

So far things are not too bad: Mitchkov and Forrester. 

 

Also I think we have to see that not EVERY team will have a franchise type player...I mean how many Crosby, Ovenchkins, McDavids, Matthews are there in the league?  just like not every team can have a QB named Tom Brady or Patrick Mahommes..even though every team hopes to find them..for each of those guys, there are countless Zach Wilsons, Justin Fields, Carson Wentz, Baker Mayfields etc...

This is where the vetting process comes in...look to the teams that typically do REALLY well in drafting and learn their secrets and copy, if you can...

 

and since we are not in a position to draft top 5, those mid/late rounders and second rounds HAVE to become critical pieces that we can rely on, too many throw away 2nd and 3rd rounders...

 

 

Edited January 2 by flyerdog

[radoran]

On 1/2/2025 at 11:16 AM, flyerdog said:

just like not every team can have a QB named Tom Brady or Patrick Mahommes..even though every team hopes to find them..for each of those guys, there are countless Zach Wilsons, Justin Fields, Carson Wentz, Baker Mayfields etc...

 

The obvious difference being that the first two guys have multiple championships while the second group... doesn't. Also, too, that the NHL isn't the NFL and one position doesn't have such an outsize influence on the outcome of the 17 games plus playoffs the teams play.

 

That said, in any sport, you can put together a good group of good players who play hard, play well, play the right way, and lose to a good group of better players.

 

Happens all the time.

 

The facts are that every team that has won the Cup over more than the past 10 years has had at least two top five picks on the roster. Whether theirs or someone else's, doesn't matter. (STL's cup winning goal? 4th overall Alex Pietrangelo).

 

Ultimately talent wins over grit and determination, especially in a seven game series. Not to mention four of them.

 

"We play 'em ten times, we might lose nine, but not tonight" is a great line to win one game.

 

Championships in the NHL require 16 wins. Winning one in nine gets you bounced in the first round.

 

Again.

 

It is, of course, possible for a team to lose to a less talented opponent. The Columbus Blue Jackets famously swept the President's Trophy winning Tampa Bay Lightning in 2019. A major win for the franchise that their fans still remember as a tremendous achievement.

 

Since then, the Blue Jackets have won three playoff games and missed the playoffs the past four going on five seasons.

 

The Lightning went on to three consecutive Finals appearances, winning two Cups.

 

Their fans don't think about 2019 at all.

 

Edited January 4 by radoran

[Samifan]

Since Ersson seems to be re-aggravating the same injury this season, I think the Flyers should just shut him down for the year. 
 

Give Kolosov and Fedotov equal starts the second half of the season to see if either are capable of being a dependable NHL Backup or 1B. 

[RonJeremy]

15 minutes ago, Samifan said:

Since Ersson seems to be re-aggravating the same injury this season, I think the Flyers should just shut him down for the year. 
 

Give Kolosov and Fedotov equal starts the second half of the season to see if either are capable of being a dependable NHL Backup or 1B. 

I agree and it will help us drop in the standings for a better pick.

[flyerdog]

On 1/2/2025 at 11:36 AM, radoran said:

 

The obvious difference being that the first two guys have multiple championships while the second group... doesn't. Also, too, that the NHL isn't the NFL and one position doesn't have such an outsize influence on the outcome of the 17 games plus playoffs the teams play.

 

That said, in any sport, you can put together a good group of good players who play hard, play well, play the right way, and lose to a good group of better players.

 

Happens all the time.

 

The facts are that every team that has won the Cup over more than the past 10 years has had at least two top five picks on the roster. Whether theirs or someone else's, doesn't matter. (STL's cup winning goal? 4th overall Alex Pietrangelo).

 

Ultimately talent wins over grit and determination, especially in a seven game series. Not to mention four of them.

 

 

for sure it helps to have franchise players and more than one, I would never dispute that
i guess my point was also that Brady was a 6th rounder, Mahommes was called a bust by every pundit and people laughed at Andy Reid when he drafted him in the first....who is laughing now? 

 

for far too long our drafts have missed on 2nd and 3rd round talent, we now have OUR franchise player..and some very good supports around him: Tyson, TK, even Tippett when he plays to his potential.  And if we can add another franchise type forward, hell yeah! 

but we have done pretty well drafting outside the top 5, and better than we have in the top five (Nolan Patrick, JVR come to mind...) guys like Giroux, Carter, Richards, Sanheim, Provorov even, 

 

and we've had our misses: Patrick, Morin, Rubstov...

but I think we would all agree, we need to do better outside of the first round...and we can't afford to draft Kevin Marshall, when PK Subban is still on the board, as an example....those types of misses are nearly as damaging as not having a top 5 pick, imo. 

 

[radoran]

11 minutes ago, flyerdog said:

we can't afford to draft Kevin Marshall, when PK Subban is still on the board, as an example....those types of misses are nearly as damaging as not having a top 5 pick, imo. 

 

Sure Subban was on the board, but so were Colby Cohen, Theo Ruth, and Will Weber - all defencemen taken after Marshall in the same round of the same draft. If you're making the picks 17 years after the draft happened, it's easy to take the better players.

 

Thirty teams "missed" on Subban. And Subban (checks notes) didn't actually help anyone actually win anything.

 

A team that did win something took Kane #1 in that draft after taking Toews #3 in the year before. The Hawks got Kane and Toews, the Flyers got Giroux and JVR in the same drafts.

 

The rest is history.

 

And that's the real "problem" - creating a situation where every pick has to work out and every pick needs to exceed reasonable expectations in order for "the plan" to work.

 

Other teams just start by building around better players. It's worked for them for going on 20 years.

[flyerdog]

yeah I realize hindsight is always 20/20. and looking back at that year's draft, Kane was really the only franchise type player, other (big) names were Lars Ellers, Jakob V,  and Shattenkirk...those that jump out anyway...

 

but If I recall, Subban was one of those "I can't believe no one has drafted him" types at the time...he didn't win a cup but he was certainly better than Kevin Marshall  and had a reasonable career.
 

 

to be fair, i believe Danny B did break the mold by drafting Matvei..when just about EVERYONE was saying Ryan Leonard was the guy and he "fit" the Flyers...kudos to Danny for that...

 

Let's be honest though, the more and more comments I hear from Mgt and the HC, it sounds to me like they are waiting to clear the dead money they have, and then might make a splash in FA, either at 'C' or 'D'

 

meanwhile we'll have to hope that these mid first rounders turn into gold like they did with Giroux and Sanheim, and TK...

 

and HOPE that we get lucky (because yeah there IS a lot of luck involved after the first round), we seem to be ok with Andrae on that front. He is not a franchise D man, but he should be a productive reliable player if he develops more...and if that's what we get more consistently, we'll be ok. 

 

But the FA mentality has to change as well...don't just sign a big name guy and put him on an island, that gets you nothing. 

[radoran]

17 minutes ago, flyerdog said:

but If I recall, Subban was one of those "I can't believe no one has drafted him" types at the time

 

IIRC, there were rumblings about his "attitude" and "commitment" to "playing the right way" if you were perhaps seeking insight into why the Senior Hockey Advisors might not have been 100% behind the pick.

To your point, that's one way you wind up with 10 games of Kevin Marshall instead of 13 seasons of PK Subban.

 

I'm not so sure that influence isn't still around.

 

 

22 minutes ago, flyerdog said:

to be fair, i believe Danny B did break the mold by drafting Matvei..when just about EVERYONE was saying Ryan Leonard was the guy and he "fit" the Flyers...kudos to Danny for that...

 

The entire hockey world believed that Michkov should have gone Top 3 if not Top 2 in that draft. Taking him at 7 wasn't a difficult choice at all.

 

23 minutes ago, flyerdog said:

mid first rounders turn into gold like they did with Giroux and Sanheim, and TK...

 

"gold" might be a tad strong here. Sanheim is serviceable, but not a superstar or even a star for that matter.

 

Konecny is a solid player in the vein of a Kyle Connor.

 

Giroux was tremendously overvalued from the moment he played The Shift. That said, I would have liked to see him making plays on Crater's wing for a good five years rather than shipping a couple Cups to Los Angeles

 

But, to your overall point, the Flyers have "hit" on late round picks. Giroux and Konecny are two examples of 20+ pick players. Scott Laughton was a 20 pick. That's three "good players" they got picking in the 20s in under ten years.

 

These are good players. They also made it out of the first round once and haven't been to the playoffs in four years.

 

Demonstrating that successful teams add these types of good players to their better players but they start with "better players." They don't build around their surprises.

 

26 minutes ago, flyerdog said:

But the FA mentality has to change as well...don't just sign a big name guy and put him on an island, that gets you nothing. 

 

The Flyers are very good at deciding that their window is open and they need to "go for it."

 

They've not been very good at perceiving when that is actually happening. To be fair, it hasn't happened much in the past 20 years.

 

An honest, legit question is whether the Flyers will have more success with their prized Russian winger than the Caps or the Wild have with theirs'.

 

Ovechkin has been past the second round once. Kaprizov hasn't made it past the first yet.

 

[flyerdog]

Well then we are just going to have to copy the Red Wings

 

those teams of the later 90s and early 2000s had very few top five picks, and many mid/late rounders..like Federov, Kozlov, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, Franzen,Datsyuk

 

scary how good THAT team was at finding talent

[ruxpin]

28 minutes ago, flyerdog said:

scary how good THAT team was at finding talent

 

Whereas the Flyers scouts couldn't find a dime bag in Valeri Nichushkin's hotel room.

 

 

(Actually, I think our scouts are probably fine but get overruled by the Sleestak Skulls).

[FD19372]

1 hour ago, flyerdog said:

Well then we are just going to have to copy the Red Wings

That Red Wing organization had open-minded objectivity. They wanted to have the best team possible, not the best team possible within their prejudicial parameters and conditions. The Flyers own worst enemy, continues to be the Flyers.

[radoran]

1 hour ago, flyerdog said:

Well then we are just going to have to copy the Red Wings

 

those teams of the later 90s and early 2000s had very few top five picks, and many mid/late rounders..like Federov, Kozlov, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, Franzen,Datsyuk

 

scary how good THAT team was at finding talent

 

If you try to build a team the way they did in the late 90s and early 2000s, congratulations, you're the current Flyers.

 

The KHL didn't exist. European Scouting wasn't prioritized. There wasn't an entire national program (or several) of talent trapped behind an Iron Curtain waiting to be poached.

 

In related news, other teams have made the playoffs in the past five four years...

[flyerdog]

1 hour ago, FD19372 said:

That Red Wing organization had open-minded objectivity. They wanted to have the best team possible, not the best team possible within their prejudicial parameters and conditions. The Flyers own worst enemy, continues to be the Flyers.

why I believe that if Clarke was still GM he would have drafted Ryan Leonard instead of Matvei, for the reasons you just listed.

And yeah this shows why those Red Wings teams did so well, they went outside the box of the traditional Canadian/American/Nordic talent pools and realized there were some damn good, under the radar, players. 

 

Besides even if we were in a position to get the #1 pick, we would lose it to an original six team...i know, i know..and I'm NOT a conspiracy theorist, 

 

but isn't it funny how CHI always seems to land the top pick during the lottery?   (Hyperbole of course).

[GratefulFlyers]

On 1/6/2025 at 12:08 PM, radoran said:

A team that did win something took Kane #1 in that draft after taking Toews #3 in the year before. The Hawks got Kane and Toews, the Flyers got Giroux and JVR in the same drafts.

 

The rest is history.

 

But the funny thing is the main reason Philly lost that series was goaltending, namely Michael Leighton. He had an incredible ECF series against the Habs but his 15mins were up before the Final started.

 

I'm not disputing Kane or Towes' value obviously the 'Hawks don't win the Cup w/out them. But the Flyers didn't get even average goaltending in the Final.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

30 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

But the funny thing is the main reason Philly lost that series was goaltending, namely Michael Leighton. He had an incredible ECF series against the Habs but his 15mins were up before the Final started.

 

I'm not disputing Kane or Towes' value obviously the 'Hawks don't win the Cup w/out them. But the Flyers didn't get even average goaltending in the Final.

 

It was Leighton's back that went on him. He didn't tell anyone he had hurt his back and that when he signed the deal after the playoff run, it was only then that the Flyers medical staff discovered the problem with his back, but it was too late to get out of the deal. Typical Flyers.....

[radoran]

3 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

I'm not disputing Kane or Towes' value obviously the 'Hawks don't win the Cup w/out them. But the Flyers didn't get even average goaltending in the Final.

 

If the Blackhawks got "average goaltending" it wouldn't have gone six games.

[SCFlyguy]

8 hours ago, radoran said:

 

If the Blackhawks got "average goaltending" it wouldn't have gone six games.

Truth.

 

The idea that CHI barely beat a superior Flyers team solely because of goaltending is another folk tale Flyers fans tell their kids.

 

One organization went on to win two more Cups after that while the other organization went to its bedroom for the next 15 years to masturbate while watching videos of the Bullies.