Anyone Miss JVR?

[Cheesesteak]

I don't miss JVR but I do miss our first line. Maybe an APB will help to find them?

It's looking like they are getting rested up and playing less ice time as they are getting contributions elsewhere. I think I read that the other day Rinaldo had more ice time than Giroux.

[Digityman]

Maybe this should be its own thread but what are the lines when he comes back? Who sits? Rinaldo? I would keep Wellwood.

[JackStraw]

I didn't realize that Voracek was in the same draft as JvR.

Now I REALLY think that JvR needs to pick it up.

I agree that I want to see more from JVR, but on the other hand he has only 4 fewer goals than Jake. In 31 fewer games. JV does have 15 more assists than JVR though.

[Spinorama]

I'm sure anyone of my posts regarding my opinions of him as quality trade bait back in January should be sufficient evidence of whether or not I miss him.

That said, hopefully when he comes back he comes back looking like that player right before the trade deadline (where I was convinced he conveniently stepped up his game) or even better looking like he did in last year's POs.

This team is in a nice position of having players who are hurt and are still doing well, theoretically they should only be that much better when the injured return... IF they don't screw up the chemistry (lookin at you Lindros)

[LegionOfDoom]

There's too much shortsightedness. Yes the offense on the team is makeing everybody look elsewhere, like the defense and team defense and bad breakout passing. JVR is hurt, he's not going to put a sour face and cry about it, he's not 100%

(Hip Impingement) Femoral acetabular impingement: The result of this deformity is increased friction

between the acetabular cup and femoral head which may result in pain and loss or reduction of hip function.

Clasically speaking in the medical community, in other words Da dude needs surgery if homie sapius wants a career in hockey.

Yes we question what linear potential is available with said specimen, yet the uncovered realities are still there.

That's the Long URL of it.

In short: Too early, too soon. End paragraph.

[Vanflyer]

@AndyS

"I didn't realize that Voracek was in the same draft as JvR."

And therein lies the whole problem with that draft class (or any top 10 draft class sans a crosby, malkin, stamkos type).

Prior to coming to Philly, Voracek was as much an enigma in Columbus as JVR is now to Philly. Change did him good and perhaps would for JVR as well. The biggest difference I see in JVR v. Voracek is their compete level. Even early in the year when everyone was poo pooing Voracek, he always competed. I think if we all saw the same from JVR, this would not even be a thread.

Remember how everyone was all over Schenn when he was injured and snickering at "the best player not playing in the NHL"? You don't see that stuff anymore. While his points are nothing to write home about, people see his compete level and that he is just starting to scratch the surface of the promise of the "best player not playing the NHL line".

Philly is a blue collar town. Work hard and leave it all out there, they will mostly love you (sans Briere). Look like you are loafing / or on cruise control sometimes, they will eat you alive.

[LegionOfDoom]

@Vanny

Absolutely right on the money. Though I too scratch my head at moments when it seems like JVR is a non factor in the game, but his off ice work ethic begs to differ. Doesn't anyone remember his summer stint, dedicating time to conditioning and a business like mentality to preparing through the summer, he wasn't loafing around chasing skirts or entering hoagy eating contests, he was with other NHL players bustin out his lunchpale and going to work, something not a lot of people care to do or get up and do. He put in his time during summer, and we were salavating at what this new season would bring with his development level.

Injuries happen and they're very frustrating, look at Schenn, he's been through so much crap in the injury department. AND I KNOW it must be frustrating as hell to see your peers busting out and having an All Star Rookies of the Year Team class and having to jump right in and not skip a beat and carry your "we're the best rookies on a team production/defensive responsibility wise" level and not look out of place. That's alot of pressure for a rookie to have, and he has been stepping up and getting better rhythm and POP.

JVR is dealing with physical issues... unfortunately alot of players work on explosive or strength movements type of workouts and don't focus equally if not more importantly on static stretching and palatis type of conditioning. That strengthens your foundational structure so that you can support Strenuous activity/exercise type of repetitive motions.

I understand how someone can get buthurt over our team, but we need to pull back and look at the whole picture.

[flyercanuck]

Hartnell had never scored more than 25 goals when he got his contract at almost the same price. He's hit 30 goals twice under that contract.

That said, I'd trade JVR - like any other player - for the right deal.

Hartnell does a heck of a lot more out there than score. I'd bet he's on almost every single players top 10 list of "players I HATE to play against", if not top 5. JVR wouldn't make the top 600. Hartnell has had his share of down games too, but most of that was attributed to his mental state during his divorce. His goal production this year is nothing but gravy.

[flyercanuck]

I'm not quite sure how you can reach this type of conclusion on van Riemsdyk. JVR had a pretty good season last year, his second as a full-time pro with the Flyers. He upped his goal total to 21 from 15, but perhaps more importantly he went from a -1 in 78 games in 09-10 to +15 in 75 games in 10-11, which shows he's adapting to playing NHL level defense.

Matt Read has three+ years of age on van Riemsdyk, and those three years are usually when a young player really develops (22-25).

When Gagne was 21-22, he two great seasons, going from 27 to 33 goals. Then he had a season marred by injury where he only played half the season and scored 9 goals.

I think the jury is still out on JVR, especially since the injuries have taken a toll on him this year. He's ahd a lower body injury, an upper body one, a concussion, and now the break.

I think the jury is still out, but there is a lot of potential here. besides, you wouldn't get much in a trade for him right now (which is one of the reasons why so many teams were interested in him).

While this is true when comparing Read to JVR, you also have to take into account JVR cost us the 2nd overall pick in the draft, Read came as an undrafted FA who has proven to be able to play in all situations AND actually score in the shootout.

[Vanflyer]

@flyercanuck

"Hartnell has had his share of down games too."

Small snickers and chuckles arise from the rafters. :-P

[flyercanuck]

I think the point here is that the Flyers - who will be paying JVR an "actual" salary of $2.5M next season and won't pay more than $4M until 14-15 - believe that they will be "overpaying" at the start of JVR's contract (cap-wise) so they will have a good value at the end, when he tops out at $5M per in the last two years of the deal.

Only time will tell if they are right, but that strategy does seem to have paid some dividends with Hartnell (who is only taking home $3.7M this season and will make $3.2M next).

The Flyers have had the luxury of depth to deal with injuries to their top forwards and JVR is part of that depth.

This is an excellent point rad. And I am in no way saying lets get rid of him. Depth on D is every bit as important, if not moreso. I'd only want to deal JVR if a quality defenceman was coming back our way.

[flyercanuck]

Here is the deal (in my view). The 2007 draft class was a crap shoot.

#1- Kane (RW)- Superstar early, mediocre now.

#2- JVR (LW)- Progressively better, but a bust this year due to injuries and still apathetic too often on the ice.

#3- Turris ©- Traded and still trying to find how to play in the NHL.

#4- Hickey (D)- Young and learning, but has not played in the NHL yet.

#5- Azner (D)- Depending on your team needs, might be the best pick of the top 10 aside from #1 (Kane)

#6- Gagner ©- Great over the red line, but a -40 thus far (but much improved this year).

#7- Voracek (RW)- Size and effort. Needs to work on his shooting.

#8- Hamill- © - Still trying to bust the Bruins lineup.

#9- Couture © - The sleeper of the top 10 and some think worth more than Kane (RW v. C)

#10- Ellerby (D)- Young kid still learning D. BIG. Has not yet solidified permanent NHL spot yet.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In that vain, JVR is fine. In the context to your post, I would trade JVR for a top 8 draft pick this year in a heart beat (there are currently 7 dmen in the top 10). My goal is defensemen. So in that vain, there are many more in the top 50. Perhaps the largest selection in the last 10 years.

Ya, it wasn't a bad pick by Holmgren, it was a lameass draft class. I would prefer a good young defenceman who's already shown he can play. But I'd definately take that top 8 pick and grab maybe Reinhart? Looks like half the first round will be Dmen this year.

[flyercanuck]

There's too much shortsightedness. Yes the offense on the team is makeing everybody look elsewhere, like the defense and team defense and bad breakout passing. JVR is hurt, he's not going to put a sour face and cry about it, he's not 100%

(Hip Impingement) Femoral acetabular impingement: The result of this deformity is increased friction

between the acetabular cup and femoral head which may result in pain and loss or reduction of hip function.

Clasically speaking in the medical community, in other words Da dude needs surgery if homie sapius wants a career in hockey.

Yes we question what linear potential is available with said specimen, yet the uncovered realities are still there.

That's the Long URL of it.

In short: Too early, too soon. End paragraph.

The thing with JVR is, it's NOT shortsightedness. He's played the same style of game since i first saw him play at UNH 4 or 5 years ago. ..other than that one playoff run. A soft, perimeter game that aggravates the hell out of me. You can see what the guy is capable of. He just rarely puts in a hard days work. Again, I'm not saying get rid of him. We all hoped we'd see him breakout this year, but it was basically more of the same. Which is far from useless, and far from what we saw in that playoff.

[flyercanuck]

@AndyS

"I didn't realize that Voracek was in the same draft as JvR."

And therein lies the whole problem with that draft class (or any top 10 draft class sans a crosby, malkin, stamkos type).

Prior to coming to Philly, Voracek was as much an enigma in Columbus as JVR is now to Philly. Change did him good and perhaps would for JVR as well. The biggest difference I see in JVR v. Voracek is their compete level. Even early in the year when everyone was poo pooing Voracek, he always competed. I think if we all saw the same from JVR, this would not even be a thread.

Remember how everyone was all over Schenn when he was injured and snickering at "the best player not playing in the NHL"? You don't see that stuff anymore. While his points are nothing to write home about, people see his compete level and that he is just starting to scratch the surface of the promise of the "best player not playing the NHL line".

Philly is a blue collar town. Work hard and leave it all out there, they will mostly love you (sans Briere). Look like you are loafing / or on cruise control sometimes, they will eat you alive.

Playing for a team like Columbus must be tough. I know they get paid well and they're professionals. But it must be frustrating going through your career playing competetive hockey then getting drafted by some crap franchise like that. Beats what we all do for a living though.

[Vanflyer]

@flyercanuck

John Carlson says hello, but that is a WHOLE other discussion (but he is in Hunters dog house for some reason- maybe we can trade some AHL scrubs for the guy I can't even remember his name and trade that forgotten name back to Washington for Carlson).

Never mind, this is a hijack thread post and I don't want to get into trouble with the post police. :-)

[davies]

Maybe this should be its own thread but what are the lines when he comes back? Who sits? Rinaldo? I would keep Wellwood.

i'd keep rinaldo

wellwood is going to get pushed around in the playoffs imo

[flyercanuck]

@Vanflyer

Eminger. @#$%!!!!!!!

[flyercanuck]

i'd keep rinaldo

wellwood is going to get pushed around in the playoffs imo

If they can catch him....Hi davies!

[radoran]

Hartnell does a heck of a lot more out there than score. I'd bet he's on almost every single players top 10 list of "players I HATE to play against", if not top 5. JVR wouldn't make the top 600. Hartnell has had his share of down games too, but most of that was attributed to his mental state during his divorce. His goal production this year is nothing but gravy.

He hit 30 goals in his second season here, then had 14 in 81 games and 24 in 82. That's not a "share of down games" that's two full seasons. For $4.2M - which was a benchmark set in the thread for what the team should be paying for a 20-goal scorer.

There were people calling for Hartnell's head and "Hartnell Down" wasn't the amusingly self-depricating quip we know today. It was a quasi-serious critique of whether or not he could skate. If he hadn't hit the 30-goal mark this season and had a nice renaissance on the ice - say was having another low-20s season - I doubt he'd be getting as much credit for his "intangibles" with a $4.2M cap hit.

The Flyers gave a comparable contract to a younger player that they project to fit that level of production. We can agree or disagree on that decision, but I do think that by the end of the JVR deal he will be viewed as a good value for the cap hit, even if he merely brings the same level of commitment that we've seen to this point. This, oddly enough, is almost exactly what I was saying about Scott Hartnell when people questioned that deal's amount and length.

Hartnell was a 6th overall pick joined the league at 18 and in his first three seasons he was 16-41-34 points. JVR came in at 20 and his first three years in the league: 35-40-24.

Hartnell at 20 - having played two years in the league and not at UNH - put up 34-33 (in 59)-48. Not far off what JVR has done production-wise.

I don't expect JVR to be the pest on the ice that Hartnell is. But I haven't seen Hartnell move with the puck the way JVR has - again, on occasion.

I don't see a reason to jettison the guy, nor do I think he's "missed" on this squad rightnow. But it would be great to get him back for the playoffs and 2-3 years from now, he's going to be a much bigger part of the team or he's going to be elsewhere.

[radoran]

"I didn't realize that Voracek was in the same draft as JvR."

And therein lies the whole problem with that draft class (or any top 10 draft class sans a crosby, malkin, stamkos type).

Prior to coming to Philly, Voracek was as much an enigma in Columbus as JVR is now to Philly. Change did him good and perhaps would for JVR as well. The biggest difference I see in JVR v. Voracek is their compete level. Even early in the year when everyone was poo pooing Voracek, he always competed. I think if we all saw the same from JVR, this would not even be a thread.

I don't think we can underestimate the effect that Jagr has had on Voracek. He's literally playing with his childhood idol.

Or, for that matter, just how moribund a franchise and organizational culture they have in Columbus.

[ruxpin]

JVR has been out for half the season. He has played a fairly vanilla game (aside from his performance last postseason and a handful of shifts in a handful of games) for the first 3 years of his career. He has shown us a taste of what he's capable of when he puts his mind to it, but for the most part, at least IMO, he leaves a lot to be desired. The guy has skill, speed and size. He just doesn't seem to have a hockey brain. What I mean is, he doesn't seem to go hard very often. Doesn't want to get dirty.

So over the last half of the season, have you missed JVR from the team? Giroux has stepped up big time. Voracek, Simmonds, Couturier, Read, Hartnell, Jagr, Talbot have all done all you could ask for and more. Schenn is a work in progress (and I know JVR is too) that seems to be coming around. And Schenn certainly doesn't lack in effort. Wellwood is really catching my eye as a guy I'd thought would take longer to be NHL ready, and Rinaldo has been neutered in a good way. Briere we all hope is going to break out in the playoffs, but his best days are likely behind him.

JVR spent the first half of the season as he's spent most of his career. For most of his shifts, you didn't even know he was on the ice. He's been hurt but honestly, I don't see much difference in his game when he's NOT playing. I know this guy has a huge upside.(he was on pace to increase his point total yet again) I know if we traded him, he may just reach it. But looking at the roster we have right now, with all those young guys, does this make JVR expendable before that 6 year contract kicks in? (of course this may not look good on Holmgren, but if it improves the team...) Or do you think it ends up being a worthwhile contract? He's still got a lot of value as a 2nd overall pick. Alone, or in a package he could bring in a valuable asset. Or is he worth more just to keep? Cause honestly, I'm not missing this guy one bit at this point, and I've never really wanted to trade him before. But with all the offence this team has, if we could package him with a Dman for a better one, I'm in.

Of course all this would change if healthy JVR is also angry JVR.

You've never liked JVR, @flyercanuck. Like I've always said, he's a great player who is only going to get better. We've been lucky to not miss him this year, but only because others have really stepped up. He'll be back next year and tear up the league. You wait and see.

(April fools!)

[doom88]

On second thought, watching Pit push the smaller Flyers around, I kind of miss JVRs big frame.

[flyercanuck]

You've never liked JVR, @flyercanuck. Like I've always said, he's a great player who is only going to get better. We've been lucky to not miss him this year, but only because others have really stepped up. He'll be back next year and tear up the league. You wait and see.

(April fools!)

I was literally laughing out loud before I even got near the "April Fools " part. Good one rux.

[flyercanuck]

On second thought, watching Pit push the smaller Flyers around, I kind of miss JVRs big frame.

Huh? For every Briere or Giroux (who doesn't play small) we have, we also have Hartnell, Simmonds, Jagr, Voracek(who's not only showing his skill, but his aggression) Grossmann, Coburn, Kubina, Couturier, Schenn. Talbot and Rinaldo don't exactly play small.

[doom88]

The Pens are bigger and push smaller guys around. It isn't about heart in this case, as the smaller Flyers do play their tails off. JVR is just plain bigger and harder to move.