Add Tortorella to the list that rips Pens, Malkin & Crosby

[TedZep]

tomorrow, get a notepad out for the game. each time a flyers

No offense, but who was talking to you? B21 made a wild assertion and I simply asked him to back it up. "The Flyers do it too," well fine, then tell what and when was all I asked. I notice you provided nothing but a general "Hartnell probably, and Girioux maybe and Jagr... " If you want to refute me do your own legwork. You get the notepad and then tell us all the horrible things the Flyers did and got away with. You know, like Orpik getting a penalty for getting punched in the face, ala Rinaldo. Or Staal getting jumped and highsticked and being the only one in the scrum to go sit ala Talbit. Give me examples not generalities was all I asked. We have very specific grievances, most of which were echoed by the announcing crew. I'm not saying the Flyers are saints, but c'mon, all eyes are on the faceoff and Crosby slashes Giroux not once but twice and no call... you haven't seen the Flyers get away with anything remotely like that.

So if you want to play Mr. Helper give me a list showing Flyers getting away anything similar to the

♫ Four two-handers, three punches to the face, two rabbit punches and a dangerous hit to a Penguins knee. ♫

[B21]

@TedZep

<< I hate when people use the expression "white flag" but you just raised one. I asked YOU, not that apologist, to come up with a similar list of offenses since "everyone does it." But you chose not to, because you can't. It wasn't just me looking for such things, the announcing crew pointed out just about every single thing I mentioned. I didn't notice that Crosby had slashed Schenn prior to the crosscheck, but they were looking for it because of all the other ones Crosby got away with. As he admitted. Why can't you? These are facts, verifiable incidences, of the Pens being dirty, getting away with it and then whining because other teams are calling them on their shenanigans. >>

Well Ted - would you like if I copied and pasted everything aziz said in response to your argument? Because mine would be about the same. Funny I haven't seen you respond to him. I wonder why. Can't wait to read it though...or are you waiving a white flag?

As for the Schenn hit, you mean the hit a split second before Schenn gets rid of the puck? Is that what you are complaining about? Yeah...that doesn't happen 50 times a game...and never get called.

<< Give a time signature where a Flyer punched a Pen in that game and got away with it. Give me some tiny shred of anything to back up your wild and unfounded assertions. That's all we ask: back up what you claim. Back it up. >>

Sure I can. If I felt the need to go watch every game again with the same narrow-mindedness you do.

Anyway, here is your boy Hartnell in action. Not the Pens but he certainly gets away with a lot. Or do your glasses not pick that up?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrV3WnJPGNk

By the way...I see you on a "Crosby admitted..." kick here and silly.com still. Admitted....you mean these comments?

Crosby took particular offense at the suggestion that he whines or complains to the officials to the extreme. That's a charge -- along with being a diver -- that has been levied against him by the Flyers and Philadelphia fans for years, but most recently it came from Tortorella.

"I don't know what he's talking about," Crosby said. "I mean, if you want you can put a camera on us all game, put a camera on [Rangers captain Ryan] Callahan all game, and you'll see who's over there [complaining to officials] more. He should worry about his own players."

That said, Crosby admitted that as a teenager early in his career he spoke up too much to officials.

"I'll be the first one to admit my first couple of years I was pretty hard on the refs," he said. "I've come a long way since then, but I'm nowhere near where I was then, and to get those kinds of remarks every day is uncalled for and not warranted.

"I don't need to sit here and defend myself for something that's not going on, but, if they want to try that garbage, try it. Go ahead."

Maturity, Crosby said, taught him to cool it with officials.

"I think after a while you learn it's a waste of your own energy. It doesn't help anything. They're not going to change their mind after penalties. Yelling isn't really going to help. I think it's just something with time you learn.

"It's experience, and I'm a pretty competitive guy, but you've got to learn to kind of control that sometimes and put your energy toward things that matter -- and that's playing hockey," he said.

"I think it's been a gradual thing. There's no doubt I'm emotional. There are times when I'm going to get fired up, but not enough to warrant all that. It's nonsense. You can put a camera on me all game if you want. It's not even close. It's not even close."

Sounds like he is owning up to his early years.

[B21]

@TedZep

Hey - I see you respond to aziz. Kudos. To bad it's OMR's old "If it's not you YouTube it didn't happen argument".

[aziz]

I'm not saying the Flyers are saints, but c'mon, all eyes are on the faceoff and Crosby slashes Giroux not once but twice and no call... you haven't seen the Flyers get away with anything remotely like that.

i've watched giroux get away with exactly that many times.

I notice you provided nothing but a general "Hartnell probably, and Girioux maybe and Jagr... "

because it is a general, commonplace, everyday. allthefukingtime thing. new flash, mr sensitive: hockey is a rough game, and lot of what happens isn't on the complete up-and-up. you look at crosby playing the game like 200 other players play the game, and getting treated like 200 other players do, and declare him unique. it'd be like screaming that kobi bryant doesn't get called for traveling. well, nofcukingshit, no one does. no, i can't rattle off any particular examples, because it isn't a particular oversight on the part of the officials. every guy that dunks, walks. you want to make note of every time a specific guy does it, fine, but you are completely full of sh|t insisting he's the only one. and if you refuse to see everyone else doing it, well, there's your bias for you.

i mean, are you seriously telling me you have never noticed hartnell doing stuff that absolutely could have been called roughing, or crosschecking, or slashing, or just a general unsportsmanlike conduct....but wasn't? seriously?

ok, here, i'll spoon feed you. sestito ends horton's season with a high, late hit from the blindside, and horton ends up with the penalty. then, count the crosschecks, highsticks, gloved punches by flyers in the scrum that follows. all *could* be called, but none are. because this is fukcing commonplace.

welcome to the game of hockey, mr zep.

Edited April 7, 2012 by aziz

[Lindbergh31]

@Lindbergh31

<< Fair point, but Shero doesn't need to get on his soap box everytime someone brings up Crosby concussions history, Milbury's comments were an ill attempt of humour in trying to bring the fact of if Crosby is going to keep playing with edge he could end up with another concussion and he'll have nobody to blame but himself. >>

But Shero does not get up on his soap box everytime Crosby's concussion history comes up. He was po'd THIS time and rightfully so. Milbury's comments were way more than just an bad attempt at humor. It's one thing to call out a guy for mixing it up after saying he wouldn't after a concussion. It's another to make a pretty off color remark about it.

<< You'll have to ask Colin Campbell why Downie didn't get suspended since he was a repeat offender like Matt Cooke so he should have. Most Flyers fans never claimed Downie was an angel, just the same that Pens fans should not claim that Crosby is an angel either. >>

Why can't you just admit that the league does not protect Crosby any more or less than any other player and a repeat offender like Downie not getting a suspension for an obvious cheap shot on the alledged golden boy is proof of that. Not that Cooke has anything to do with Downie...but Cooke got his. The league more than made up for not suspending him long enough (or at all) for prior incidents. Also, I don't think Pens fans claim Crosby is an angel...but he's not even close to a Cooke or Downie.

<< Fair if other players who made the same type of hit got the same treatment, I forget the player who got suspended 4 games for the knee on knee hit similar to Orpik, so explain why Orpik wouldn't get the same punishment? >>

For the same reason Downie wasn't? For the same reason OV wasn't suspended until his 4th or 5t slew foot? For the same reason Rupp wasn't for the knee on Staal? For the same reason PK Subban has not been suspended for God knows how many slew foots? Maybe the Orpik hit was not a blatant attempt to injure? Certainly arguable...he lunged forward to make a hit and missed. Stepan deeks hard left and their knees collide. Orpik was in a wide stance to make the hit. Same argument from Rangers fans why Rupp should not be suspended. See what I am getting at?

<< The reason why all you hear is how Malkin didn't get an instigator is the fact it was a rule in place that was cut and dry and Campbell overturned it without real explanation as to why he did. As for the covering the puck in the crease, ask the refs as to why they didn't call that. Heck, if you're going to go that route, explain why the refs made the phantom hooking call on Staal by Jeff Carter when the Pens were down by one in the series against the Flyers. Refs in the NHL as everyone knows, half the time can't get the calls right and there is two of them on the ice. >>

Again...bad calls the cost both teams. That's the second time your reply to a call that didn't go the Pens way was "Ask Campbell..." or "Ask the refs...". So bad call goes agains my team...ask the refs. Bad call goes against your team...it's bias/favoritism/league protecting. Scott Walker did the same as Malkin...not suspended. Not like Malkin was the only one. It's also well known that a lot less gets called in the playoffs and a lot more has to be done to warrant a long suspension or any suspension for that matter. Downey and Kunitz each got 1 game in last year's playoffs for shots that are 2+ at least if they happen in the regular season. Kunitz threw a blatant elbow to Gagne's head. Downie left his feet to deliver a head shot on Lovejoy. That's a repeat offender getting 1 game for a head shot. You don't hear me whining about it do you?

What's Downie got to do with the Flyers, he doesn't play for them anymore, Kunitz didn't get suspended the year before when he elbowed Timonen in the head during the playoffs, did you convenently forget that. You're not going to convince Flyers fans that the league don't show favortiism to the Pens, so just leave it at that. As much as I have no problem saying that Crosby is a very good player, I'm not going to feel sorry for him if someone hits him knee on knee or he ends up with another concussion as a result of the way he plays. No Pens fans ever felt sorry for Lindros when he was with the Flyers when he got those concussions. Crosby plays with edge which most fans don't have a problem with, but he can't turn around and start whining and complaining if other players do the same thing to him as he does to them that's what Milbury was trying to point out. If Crosby got hit with a knee on knee like Orpik made or takes a shot to the head like Kunitz did to Timonen, Pens fans would be up in arms complaining, yet if other teams fans make comments about if Pens players doing samething then they're considered whiners and complainers according to Pens fans.He's got to stop trying to protray himself as the victim all the time, he's going to be hated by opposing teams fans just the same as Gretzky, Yzerman and other stars were. It's part of being a great player, except those players were more respected by opposing fans because they didn't whine and complain as much as he does. He's got to learn to shut up and just play hockey then maybe opposing teams fans wouldn't hate him so much.

[doom88]

I find it funny that a pens fan (B21)is on a Flyers board trying to prove his point among Flyers fans. Why even respond to the guy. He sees everything the way he chooses to see it, through pissbuburgh colored glasses. You're not going to convince him of anything why even respond to his drivel? How desperate of a person goes on a Flyers board to drum up support for his team which we all hate? Let him go to Lets Go Pens board where he has fellow Cindy and Malkin man crushes to talk to.

I hear what you're saying about @B21 but he is a good guy on the forum. Often times, he is an excellent poster, and stays away from the pettiness. Better than that Ref Wings guy who worships Kronwall especially.

[ruxpin]

?

man

he was crosschecked from behind by a guy he didn't even know was there on his way to the bench way after the whistle. like, 10 seconds after the whistle. if you are just skating down the ice and i come up from behind and jam you in the small of the back, you are gonna fall down, too.

and of course he had no problem hitting schenn. schenn had just cleared the puck, and crosby put his shoulder into him.

a half second late hit on schenn by crosby is the worst thing ever, and crosby falling down after a ninja crosscheck is the other worse thing ever.

people, this is embarrassing. the amount of baseless whining coming out of the flyers fan base about crosby makes all the crying to the refs he does look downright dignified. hate the guy. hate the team. but good lord, stop trying to justify it with this 6 yearold playground crap.

Hi aziz,

I haven't read the whole thread, but I at this point in the thread, I don't think I agree with your description of the Schenn/Crosby thing, although I can easily get behind your concluding paragraph.

I don't have any real problem with Crosby whining. He did it a lot the first couple of years of his career, but I haven't been bothered with it at all the last two-three years. I do think the organization, as an organization, whines more than the average bear. Especially their owner, who has apparently been neutered since his playing days. The stuff coming from other coaches is exactly as Crosby called it: gamesmanship. It's Lindy Ruff-esque, actually, and it's a little nauseating.

But just quickly on the Crosby/Schenn thing. Watching it happen live, and then watching the various replays (which typically only show the last moment before Schenn crosschecks him), I really had the impression that Crosby knew exactly who was behind him and was fully expecting to be hit. I don't think the flop was in proportion to the hit. It's quite clear--IMO--from his expression that he was interested in drawing a call. And hey, that's actually part of hockey too. It's a little embarrassing that it's as obvious as it was, but I have seen that from quite a few players, including Flyers (Briere, Recchi, Hartnell, just to name a few).

The recent knee/knee stuff bothers me more than the rest of it. We can claim Vitale's hit on Grossman was accidental. And from the replay I can buy that. But three in three games can be seen as a trend (or just as a coincidence). It just needs to stop.

[aziz]

But just quickly on the Crosby/Schenn thing. Watching it happen live, and then watching the various replays (which typically only show the last moment before Schenn crosschecks him), I really had the impression that Crosby knew exactly who was behind him and was fully expecting to be hit. I don't think the flop was in proportion to the hit.

maybe, i guess it's hard to really know. to me, he hadn't actually looked at schenn since he hit him in the corner, 70 feet and 10 seconds behind the spot the crosscheck happened. he probably knew schenn was back there, but there way he could have known when the hit was coming, or that one was coming at all. he wasn't looking. and on the slowmo, he started falling with the check...generally, if someone is playing it up, there's that split second between where they register the hit and where they thow themself forward. that wasn't there on that play; schenn shoves, crosby falls. finally, yes, the flop was bigger than the hit, if he saw schenn incoming and had time to brace it. try just shoving a guy not braced at the local rink, though. just one hand, shove him from the back. then be nice and help him back up.

he definitely and obviously looked straight at the ref, no doubt. maybe he strategically left himself open to a crosscheck, i guess.

[Phillygrump]

Crosby knew what he was doing and embellished the reaction to the crosscheck. He flopped.He's excellent at flopping. He practices a lot.

[ruxpin]

try just shoving a guy not braced at the local rink, though. just one hand, shove him from the back

This is already the reason I'm not allowed IN the local rink. You push one Amish guy on skates and suddenly you're a pariah.

[aziz]

bah, he flopped. the amish are excellent floppers.

Edited April 8, 2012 by aziz

[canoli]

maybe he strategically left himself open to a crosscheck, i guess.

took you a week and 807 posts but you finally nailed it.

[B21]

@Lindbergh31

Happy Easter.

<< What's Downie got to do with the Flyers, he doesn't play for them anymore, Kunitz didn't get suspended the year before when he elbowed Timonen in the head during the playoffs, did you convenently forget that. >>

You took issue with Malking not getting suspended in the post-season. The Downie and Kunitz hits and resulting 1-game suspensions are to point out how the league and officials tend to let a more go and are a lot more lenient in the playoffs. Those hits are 2+ in the regular season. I didn't forget the hit on Timmonen but is it relevant here?

<< You're not going to convince Flyers fans that the league don't show favortiism to the Pens, so just leave it at that. As much as I have no problem saying that Crosby is a very good player, I'm not going to feel sorry for him if someone hits him knee on knee or he ends up with another concussion as a result of the way he plays. No Pens fans ever felt sorry for Lindros when he was with the Flyers when he got those concussions. Crosby plays with edge which most fans don't have a problem with, but he can't turn around and start whining and complaining if other players do the same thing to him as he does to them that's what Milbury was trying to point out. >>

The funny thing is...in all the BS coming from Lavi and Berube and Milbury and Torts...none of it was the result of Crosby whining. Lavi took issue with the Briere hit. Milbury's v a g i n a itched because Bylsma didn't go 10 rounds with Lavi. Torts had a problem with the Orpik hit. Berube, unable to form a thought of his own, requotes Milbury. And what do they all do? Blame Crosby for incidents that did not involve him. I'll call that spineless. I'll call that....gutless (to use Milbury's term). All four of them. Maybe a little gamesmanship on the part of Lavi and Berube...but still spineless.

<< If Crosby got hit with a knee on knee like Orpik made or takes a shot to the head like Kunitz did to Timonen, Pens fans would be up in arms complaining, yet if other teams fans make comments about if Pens players doing samething then they're considered whiners and complainers according to Pens fans. >>

If it were illegal, sure. Heck, if it were borderline, too. Isn't that what most fans do? But here we have the Flyers fans (alot anyway) whining about a hit that is LEGAL without question. A hit they would LOVE if it was their guy on the giving end and not the receiving end. Heck, if ANYONE is playing the "victim" here it's your coach and Briere.

<< He's got to stop trying to protray himself as the victim all the time, he's going to be hated by opposing teams fans just the same as Gretzky, Yzerman and other stars were. It's part of being a great player, except those players were more respected by opposing fans because they didn't whine and complain as much as he does. He's got to learn to shut up and just play hockey then maybe opposing teams fans wouldn't hate him so much. >>

OK...so in all the hubub these last few weeks, where did Crosby portray himself as the victim? His only involvement in ANY of this was the cross check from Schenn! He only responded when asked by the media to react to the comments made by Lavi, Berube, Milbury and Torts. So again, you tell me where he acted like a victim.

Lavi, Torts, Berube and Milbury all COMPLAIN about nothing they have reason to COMPLAIN about and when Crosby gives his $.02 he is portraying himself as the victim? Comical.

[B21]

I hear what you're saying about @B21 but he is a good guy on the forum. Often times, he is an excellent poster, and stays away from the pettiness. Better than that Ref Wings guy who worships Kronwall especially.

I didn't fake my own death either.

[B21]

@TedZep

Teddy: As it turns out, I didn't have to waste time to find a few incidents to put your theories to bed. All was only able to catch the first 15:00 of the game. In that 15:00, watching with the same narrow mindedness you do, I found THREE incidents...

1) The Jody Shelly elbow to Engelland's head. It wasn't caught on camera (it was behind the play) but the announcers went on about it for a good 10-15 seconds before....the hooking call on Strait (he plays for the Pens. FYI). Unpunished elbow to the head. Hmmm...

2) The Kubina trip. You seel Kubine trip Asham right before Asham makes the pass to Dupuis that he one-timed past Bob. Clear trip. No arm up. If Dupuis was not such a sniper a blatant trip would have gone uncalled.

3) Rinaldo's blindside punch to the head of Kennedy. Video clip for this one...

At the 0:04 - 0:06 second mark you see the punch. And it is a punch as you clearly see the arm follow through and Kennedy's head snap back. No penalty. No fine. No suspension.

Now before you get your own panties in a bunch and start screaming about the misconduct on Rinaldo (also in the video) I have another clip for you...

That's Milan Lucic getting 5 and 10 for a VERY similar hit on....the irony kills me.....Rinaldo. I don't recall you having any issues with that misconduct call.

Carry on.

[B21]

Crosby knew what he was doing and embellished the reaction to the crosscheck. He flopped.He's excellent at flopping. He practices a lot.

Crosby killed JFK, too.

[doom88]

I didn't fake my own death either.

Hahaha yeah, I would expect nothing less from a guy using PK Subban as an avatar.

[sarsippius]

This thread needs to be nailed to a cross so true believers don't have to suffer anymore.

[peter puck]

B21 when your in a Pens forum and you come across a poster or posters fussing about the Pens not getting penalty calls do you post stats and vids to show them that hey we do just as much as the other teams? Maybe that doesnt happen over there( i admit that i dont go to any Pens forums) but If so could you post a link? I would really like to read some of their responses! P.S. i agree with Doom88 - excellents posts without the pettiness

[Lindbergh31]

Happy Easter,

Well it looks like Don Cherry is also getting on the act of telling Crosby to cut out the diving and whining. The facts are the rest of the league and fans see Crosby and the Pens as Bettman's pet project because he put in so much effort in keeping the team in Pittsburgh. Cherry basically said if Crosby wants to be the best player and he keeps playing the way he does then he can't expect a free pass from opposing players. Then he showed the Tortorella interview. But as for calling Torts spiceless because he brought in Crosby into the rant, I disagree due to the fact he was making a point that if it was Crosby who received the knee on knee from a Rangers player then that player would have gotten suspended.

Bring on the playoffs, we both know that if the Pens win then every Flyers fans will be hoping they don't win the cup. If the Flyers win then every Pens fans will be hoping the Flyers don't win the cup. What would Pens fans do if it goes to game 7 and into overtime and the winning goal is scored by Max Talbot or Jagr, how pissed would they be.

[BearOnIce]

Well it's good a lot coaches are calling the league to stop madness Sid/malkin thing and to do fare game.

F... commisioner is looked a joke now. I think we should tweet more about Pens and how the NHL is on thier side.

Something could happen in these playoffs to the health of said Crosby or Malkin. They both have bullseye's on their back. The Penguins organization needs to be humbled. The playoffs are a whole other level of intensity, and not a lot of room to protect prima-dona superstars.

[Mad Dog]

people, this is embarrassing. the amount of baseless whining coming out of the flyers fan base about crosby makes all the crying to the refs he does look downright dignified. hate the guy. hate the team. but good lord, stop trying to justify it with this 6 yearold playground crap.

Now…. let’s separate two issues here, Aziz. I was agreeing with you in a different thread that Lavy’s whining was baseless. I also agree that it’s not becoming to Flyers’ fans to constantly and unstoppably complain about referring.

But what I do believe is that this league cradles and favors the Pittsburgh franchise. I think there is enough evidence to support this claim, don’t you think? Detroit was robbed of the Cup in such an egregious, unceremonious, blatant, transparent manner that it almost leaves you speechless. And that’s just the thing: the league equally discriminates pretty much *all* the NHL teams when it comes to the Pittsburgh Penguins. If other coaches and color analysts notice that, don’t you think there may be some truth to the claim?

Edited April 8, 2012 by Mad Dog

[doom88]

I think @aziz point is, let's stop whining and continue winning. There's nothing we can do about the refguins anyway, so stick with mockery. Pens* must go down!

Let's Go Flyers!

[sarsippius]

@doom88

I also would have accepted "can we quit b*tching like ragging 15 year old girls", but you put it much more eloquently.

[aziz]

But what I do believe is that this league cradles and favors the Pittsburgh franchise. I think there is enough evidence to support this claim, don’t you think? Detroit was robbed of the Cup in such an egregious, unceremonious, blatant, transparent manner that it almost leaves you speechless. And that’s just the thing: the league equally discriminates pretty much *all* the NHL teams when it comes to the Pittsburgh Penguins. If other coaches and color analysts notice that, don’t you think there may be some truth to the claim?

no, i don't think there is evidence of that at all. i believe the lottery to draft crosby was suspicious, and i think malkin has escaped several suspensions that would have been dolled out to less high profile players. beyond that, i don't see a thing to back up the claim.

educate me, what is the drama of detroit being robbed of a cup? i'm not familiar with that one. i know calgary won a cup that was actually awarded to tampa, but don't know anything about something similar happening with detroit. fill me in.

and what other coaches and color analysts notice that the penguins receive preferential treatment from the league above all others? i've heard people say the pengiuns whine a lot, are classless, are arrogant, are hypocrites...but i haven't actually heard anyone straight up say the league clears them an easy path. i've heard people claim montreal gets advantageous treatment from french refs, the bruins got were treated with kid gloves while campbell was league VP, and detroit gets the same now that it's shannahan. i've heard people ***** that philly and pittsburgh get national TV coverage more than anyone else, and that the east has a schedule advantage due to less travel. but i've never heard anyone in any official capacity claim the peguins have rose petals thrown at their feet by the league.

so, quotes, please.