Torres gets 25 games

[JackStraw]

Shanny got this one right. I do have a hard time understanding how this hit deserves 25, while Neal's hit on Couturier gets 1. I can see giving Neal less, but 24 games less? For almost the same hit?

[sarsippius]

Wow Jack, what you said.....

[sarsippius]

As far as Neal vs Torres, one is a star and one is a 4th liner. And the ridiculous standard of how badly the player was injured seems to be the controlling factor. Which is just absurd.

[JackStraw]

Here's the link:

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=393821

@sarsippius - the things you mention really are the only difference, and it's ludicrous imo.

[hf101]

@JackStraw

Actually Neal got 0 games for his hit on Couturier, the one game suspension was for the hit on Giroux.

[JackStraw]

@JackStraw

Actually Neal got 0 games for his hit on Couturier, the one game suspension was for the hit on Giroux.

Right. Forgot about that. Does that make it even worse? I think so.

[B21]

Shanny got this one right. I do have a hard time understanding how this hit deserves 25, while Neal's hit on Couturier gets 1. I can see giving Neal less, but 24 games less? For almost the same hit?

That's a pretty big almost. It was a bad hit. Left his feet. Courturier was not near the puck. But he didn't target or make contact with Courturier's head. Arms were in. That's the only difference but it's a big difference. Torres clearly targeted Hossa's head with his elbow up. Right or not, Hossa going off on a stretcher probably played a big role, too. It should have been a penalty...charging (or interference) but every time a guy goes down due to a charge doesn't mean a suspension is in order especially when the head is not involved.

I thought Neal should get 2 for the Giroux hit. Not a charge or interference...but went up high. He got 1 instead...for which there was precedent (wrongly) set previously in this post-season. The logo on the jersey had nothing to do with it when you look at the rest of the post-season discipline handed down.

Maybe Torres was the straw the finally broke Shanny's back. Maybe they decided to make an example out of a 3rd/4th liner. Who knows. But his hit on Hossa was a lot worse than Neal's on Coutirier. Not 25 to 1 worse but still worse.

[JackStraw]

That's a pretty big almost. It was a bad hit. Left his feet. Courturier was not near the puck. But he didn't target or make contact with Courturier's head. Arms were in. That's the only difference but it's a big difference. Torres clearly targeted Hossa's head with his elbow up. Right or not, Hossa going off on a stretcher probably played a big role, too. It should have been a penalty...charging (or interference) but every time a guy goes down due to a charge doesn't mean a suspension is in order especially when the head is not involved.

I thought Neal should get 2 for the Giroux hit. Not a charge or interference...but went up high. He got 1 instead...for which there was precedent (wrongly) set previously in this post-season. The logo on the jersey had nothing to do with it when you look at the rest of the post-season discipline handed down.

Maybe Torres was the straw the finally broke Shanny's back. Maybe they decided to make an example out of a 3rd/4th liner. Who knows. But his hit on Hossa was a lot worse than Neal's on Coutirier. Not 25 to 1 worse but still worse.

If you don't think Neal made contact with Couturier's head, watch this and tell me if you still think that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8tdGZAsNTro#t=63s

As for what he was targeting, I'm sure neither Neal nor Torres will say, "yeah, I was going for the guy's head". Torres said that he was just trying to "finish his check" (the NHL player's "Get out of Jail Free" card). Neal actually said that he wasn't even trying to hit Couturier (he also said that he didn't know where the puck was, so wtf was he trying to do anyway?). It shouldn't matter what the player says, only what the player does. Neal's hit on Couturier was in some ways worse than Torres. He came from farther away, he left his feet sooner, and the puck was farther away from Couturier.

Like I said, Torres deserves a longer suspension, he has a longer rap sheet. But not 25 times longer.

[Vanflyer]

"Shanny got this one right. I do have a hard time understanding how this hit deserves 25, while Neal's hit on Couturier gets 1. I can see giving Neal less, but 24 games less? For almost the same hit?"

Effing unbelievable. I agree with the Torres suspension but everything you said about neal is spot on- not to mention the fact that head hunted not one, but two players on the same shift. I a going to call this selective inconsistency!

[Vanflyer]

@JackStraw

"Shanny got this one right. I do have a hard time understanding how this hit deserves 25, while Neal's hit on Couturier gets 1. I can see giving Neal less, but 24 games less? For almost the same hit?"

Effing unbelievable. I agree with the Torres suspension but everything you said about neal is spot on- not to mention the fact that head hunted not one, but two players on the same shift. I a going to call this selective inconsistency!

[OzFlyer]

I do have a hard time understanding how this hit deserves 25, while Neal's hit on Couturier gets 0

I fixed it for you. Neal got one for his hit on G the same shift.

[Vanflyer]

@OzFlyer

Thanks. I am just totally perplexed. I loved shanny as a player. Hard nosed, skilled and played on the edge. To we him vacilate in this fashion leaves me utterly dumbfounded.

The only thing I can think of is reading about lindros being the NHL Ombudsmen and resigning 15 months later because the NHL had an prescribed agenda that did not align to the role and purpose of the Ombudsmen (basically they told Lindros what to say and do in regards to the NHLPA).

[OzFlyer]

@Vanflyer It's like he is trying to fix all his other blunders (starting with Weber) with the stroke of a pen.

[xganarchy]

I cannot BELIEVE Shanahan can give Torres 25 games and Neal ONE! The Neal hit on Couturier was deserving of 3 by itself. Couturier didn't have the puck, Neal left his skates, and got his head. But Neal says "Oops, I didn't see him!" and all is forgiven? Total b.s. Rinaldo gets thrown out of multiple games in this playoff series alone for pushing a guy to the ice & other small infractions, but Neal stays in and tries taking out Giroux as well. The Flyers can't get ahead even when they play by the book and ignore the circus act the Pens tried. Dress Shelley, plaster Crosby to the boards (even if he doesn't have the puck, since that apparently doesn't matter) and see what happens.

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

Not defending Torres with this. He deserves every minute of the 25 game suspension.

Neal knew exactly what he was doing. He tucked his arms in, and jumped from 3 feet away...3 FEET!!! There was no attempt to avoid the collision. Shanahan is an idiot for beliving that Neal was jumping to avoid the collision. This hit was, by far, the wost hit I saw this season if you look at intent to injure. Nothing else comes close, not even the Torres hit.

[B21]

@JackStraw

<< If you don't think Neal made contact with Couturier's head, watch this and tell me if you still think that: >>

http://www.youtube.c...dGZAsNTro#t=63s

Exact same angle in my video which I watched over and over. If there is any contact with the head it's totally incidental. Neal gets him right across the breastbone. Definitely not "targeting" the head like Torres.

<< As for what he was targeting, I'm sure neither Neal nor Torres will say, "yeah, I was going for the guy's head". Torres said that he was just trying to "finish his check" (the NHL player's "Get out of Jail Free" card). Neal actually said that he wasn't even trying to hit Couturier (he also said that he didn't know where the puck was, so wtf was he trying to do anyway?). It shouldn't matter what the player says, only what the player does. >>

This was talked about in another thread. My response...what is Neal supposed to say? I agree it should not matter what the players says...though that does defeat the purpose of these hearings. Maybe those are a formality. But that falls to Shannahan for buying Neal's argument. Not Neal for making it. Reasonable to assume that Neal wanted to make a big hit that would rattle Courturier but if he was head hunting, why were the elbows in and arms down (unlike Torres)?

<< Neal's hit on Couturier was in some ways worse than Torres. He came from farther away, he left his feet sooner, and the puck was farther away from Couturier. >>

All true but all pale in comparison to the fact that Torres clearly targets the head with his elbow up and Neal did not.

<< Like I said, Torres deserves a longer suspension, he has a longer rap sheet. But not 25 times longer. >>

Agree...but that argument is Torres' suspension being way too long...not Neal's being way to short.

[JackStraw]

@B21 - you may be missing the whole point of my post. I understand what Shanahan said about Neal's hit on Couturier. Head contact looks clear to me, you say it's incidental. My point is, it shouldn't matter. The league's policy is totally screwed up. Neal is just one example, there are lots of others. The league should have a policy that says, "you leave your feet and make contact with another players head, that's a 5 game suspension." No hearing, no plea bargain. No Shanny TV. Doesn't matter if you were aiming for the head or not. Doesn't matter if you "launched" yourself, or if you jumped because you thought you saw part of Jimmy Hoffa hanging from the rafters.

And that's for first offenders. Do it again, 10 games. Third time, 15, and so on. And it doesn't matter if the guy you hit is carted off on a stretcher or pops up and scores a goal on you.

I understand how things are done now. You don't need give me excuses for Neal, Shanahan has already done that. Under the current system, he gets off with a slap on the wrist. As do many, many others. That's a screwed up system and if the league actually cares about the safety of their players, and if they don't want to get hit with a lawsuit like the one the NFL currently faces, they need to change it.

[JackStraw]

Thanks. I am just totally perplexed. I loved shanny as a player. Hard nosed, skilled and played on the edge. To we him vacilate in this fashion leaves me utterly dumbfounded

I seriously doubt that Shanny is the one really calling the shots here. The league most likely gave him the guidelines, then sends him out to face the public because everyone likes him. So he can take the heat. Like I just said to B21, if the league was really serious there would be none of this garbage. There would be clear penalties for actions, not inconsistent judgements based on outcomes and Shanny is willing to believe from the offending player.

[B21]

@B21 - you may be missing the whole point of my post. I understand what Shanahan said about Neal's hit on Couturier. Head contact looks clear to me, you say it's incidental. My point is, it shouldn't matter. The league's policy is totally screwed up. Neal is just one example, there are lots of others. The league should have a policy that says, "you leave your feet and make contact with another players head, that's a 5 game suspension." No hearing, no plea bargain. No Shanny TV. Doesn't matter if you were aiming for the head or not. Doesn't matter if you "launched" yourself, or if you jumped because you thought you saw part of Jimmy Hoffa hanging from the rafters.

And that's for first offenders. Do it again, 10 games. Third time, 15, and so on. And it doesn't matter if the guy you hit is carted off on a stretcher or pops up and scores a goal on you.

I understand how things are done now. You don't need give me excuses for Neal, Shanahan has already done that. Under the current system, he gets off with a slap on the wrist. As do many, many others. That's a screwed up system and if the league actually cares about the safety of their players, and if they don't want to get hit with a lawsuit like the one the NFL currently faces, they need to change it.

Fair enough. As long as their is some other infraction (in this case, the leaving of the feet) then I don't have a problem with a suspension when the head contact is incidental. Unfortunately, that's not how they do it now.

It also means that as far as contact to the head goes, Neal v. Torres is not comparable i/m/h/o.

[JackStraw]

We can agree to disagree on Neal v Torres. In any case, very memorable series we just saw with our two teams. Not sure how far the Flyers can go but I'm sure the rivalry is nowhere near finished.

[Vanflyer]

@AlaskaFlyerFan

I could not agree more. And while most will think us as homers, when you look at the hits AND intent, it is appalling that neal got one WHILE torres got 25. To be truthful, I think the 25 gaes for Torres hit is excessive. In my mind, torres gets 10 and Neal gets 15 (extra five because he head hunted TWO players on a single shift).

[Vanflyer]

@B21

Everything Jack said and more. I am sorry , but You can not deny that neal saw an opportunity and went for it. The "accidental" stuff is bs. He LAUNCHED himself into Cooter including ! You are a cool guy and a good poster, but please stop with the apologies on this play. When you watch the replay it is clear. Add in the flying elbow to Giroux on the same shift and there is no other conclusion than that he was trying to injure not one but two of the flyers top players.

The puck is 10 feet from Couturier. I will tell you what, Neal will get his lunch next year. Mark my words. Malkin is next. I actually don't want the Flyers to go after crosby, despite his whiny stuff. At least he is not as dirty as Neal and Malkin.

The pisser is that Neal is a really good hockey player. Malkin as well. Why they want to play that way is beyond me. They don't need to. The Avery / Carcillo / Lemieux types always have had to and always will.

We have a guy that is 6'5 255 in our system that just LOVES to do the stuff that Neal and Malkin do. The numbers of the bus have been noted and the markers have been placed. In the interim, happy champagne for Neal and Malkin. Their comeupptance is coming next fall.

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

@AlaskaFlyerFan

I could not agree more. And while most will think us as homers, when you look at the hits AND intent, it is appalling that neal got one WHILE torres got 25. To be truthful, I think the 25 gaes for Torres hit is excessive. In my mind, torres gets 10 and Neal gets 15 (extra five because he head hunted TWO players on a single shift).

I think its another clear example of punishing the result of the play and not the act itself.