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Guest Jon Palmer

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Unless Jagr pays the Flyers to play I would add him to that c'ya list. Not that I do not respect his greatness, I just think he is too old to be absorbing top line minutes.

I would look to move Danny B down the depth chart. It is time to let Sean Courturier shine in the prime time.

Getting a top flight right winger to play with Giroux would be great.

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Unless Jagr pays the Flyers to play I would add him to that c'ya list.

Jagr for 2 million maybe, not 3.3 though, he'd need to take a pay cut. i think he's been a great influence on these young guys, i think he's been a big reason for Jakub Voracek's emergence... the opportunity to play with his idol has brought out the best in him.... so it might be worth 3rd line minutes and 1.5 to 2 to keep him in the fold, more time with Voras, more time to make an impact on Schenn, Couturier, and the rest of the pups.

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@mojo1917

I guess that could work if he took a pay cut, but right now the priority should be a #1 defenseman and a high octane sniper. Then whatever is leftover should go to the other pieces.

i would like to agree with this but have reached my quota :D

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Hey Guys, Jagr is the reason Giroux&Hartnell had great seasons,Jagr's the HOFamer. I have serious doubts about Giroux or Hartnell making the Hall. The whole team is down,not one player. The young guys really added something thats been missing here a long time. I hope Homer continues to "Build through the Draft"! No matter how the playoffs turn out,this was a great season.

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Hey Guys, Jagr is the reason Giroux&Hartnell had great seasons,Jagr's the HOFamer. I have serious doubts about Giroux or Hartnell making the Hall. The whole team is down,not one player. The young guys really added something thats been missing here a long time. I hope Homer continues to "Build through the Draft"! No matter how the playoffs turn out,this was a great season.

Hartnell is not a HOF player nor has he ever shown a glimpse of being.

Giroux on the other hand does have the ability to do it. Will he? Who knows.

However, Giroux makes the players around him better. Giroux needs someone on his wing besides Hartnell that can actually make him better.

The kid has a wicked shot and needs someone (Nash?) to set him up more.

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do you really see any similarities between the two players' games, though? i know they both get that "power forward" label, but....i don't see them playing any where near the same style.

i still don't think JVR has a good head for the game. i think he still has a specific plan when he receives the puck, and tries to execute that plan regardless of how the coverage in front of him develops. the number of passing chances he's ignored and the number of drive-to-the-net plays he has forced in spite of prohibitive backchecking....i don't think he has the ability to adjust as the play unfolds. he is obviously doing the thing he decided to do with no concept of taking advantage of an evolving on-ice situation. watch him tonight, you'll know what he's gonna try to do the second he crosses the blueline, and he'll keep trying to do that even if the play obviously isn't there. this is as opposed to hartnell, who i don't think has a plan, ever, but just works with whatever is in front of him. to a fault, sometimes, but still.

anyway, i don't think there is any basis for a real comparison between the two, outside of the broad power forward designation. two completely different approaches to the game.

I've made the points before:

1) top ten draft pick

2) similar ages at comparable points

3) similar salary and length of contract

4) "power forward" label

I've made the concession that Hartnell brings more "agitator" while JVR clearly has more skating and stickhandling "talent".

I think the comparison is valid in terms of the development of a "power forward" and also the decisions teams made - Nashville going with a string of one-year deals as an RFA, including a tender; Flyers locking up the RFA long-term at what, comparably for actual dollars and cap percentage, is less than Hartnell..

JVR needs to continue to develop, but a player like Hartnell gives us every hope that JVR can be the 25-30 goal scorer on a consistent basis, with a higher "up side", that the Flyers saw when they decided to sign him to the deal.

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I think the comparison is valid in terms of the development of a "power forward"

i guess i think that is an empty and meaningless label, and thus is a poor basis for drawing a comparison. the two players don't do any of the same stuff, the games they play are entirely different. it's like putting a lotus elise and a camaro next to each other and judging them by the same stick because they are both "sports cars".

hartnell plays a bang-bodies/crash-the-net game, where JVR plays a power-posession game a la rick nash. hartnell developed as he gained confidence and learned where the lines were that he shouldn't cross and how to push that envelope. JVR will develop as he learns how to use his size to hold the puck and how to fit that ability into an otherwise traditional offensive game. in other words, how to find passing lanes, how to get open, how to support a puck carrier, etc. the two use completely different skill sets, the only commonality being they are both bigger than average.

my worry about JVR is i don't see him thinking out there, i see him executing. i see him with a plan before he gets the puck, and then putting that plan into action at all costs. joni pitkanen was the same way, he didn't look for opportunities that presented themselves, he did the thing he had previously decided to do. if it was carry the puck deep and circle around the net, he was going to carry the puck deep and circle around the net. there could be 3 forwards in wide open passing lanes just waiting for a pass as joni dove deep, but he had a plan and was going to keep on it. tons of skill, zero awareness.

i guess that kind of thing can be learned, maybe...but i would tihnk there'd have to be at least a kernal of it there to start off with, and i don't see it. in any case, JVR faces a whole different set of challenges than hartnell did, and his developement is going to hing on a seperate set of does-he-get-it. they may take the same amoutn of time or whatever, but they'll be a coincidence.

this maybe sounds more arguementative than i intended it to be. if so, sorry 'bout that. i just think JVR has a real problem to overcome, and it's one that you don't generally see from a kid with his pedigree. i don't know if i can think of a real model for the kind of learning he has to do. nash knew how to continually re-evaluate his surroundings out of the gate. hartnell's game isn't particularly concerned with his surroundings, given that carrying the puck isn't his primary role. tocchet played the same game as hartnell. neely was similar to nash and JVR, but he also knew how to think the game from the get go.

the one guy that keeps coming to mind missing the same peice as JVR is pitkanen. offensively, anyway. joni's problems were even more...problematic...defensively, but there it is. i don't know if you can teach that kind of dog this kind of new trick.

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I agree with @flyercanuck on this. JVR is going to be a good player. He's not going to be great I don't think but a top 50? 40? player during his peak years.

However, IMHO this team is set to peak in the next 1-2 years when the average age is about 27, Bryz is 32-33, Timo's last year, the kids get experience.....

So, if a combination of JVR, Hartnell, Carle, Bob and a decent prospect/pick(s) can land a solid winger for Giroux (Ryan, Nash, Iginla) and a #1/2 dman, I would expect Homer to make the trade.

Carle - $3.44

JVR - $4.25

Pronger - $4.92

Bob - $1.75

Total - $14.36

The lines would look something like this:

???? - Giroux - Jagr (Ryan, Nash, Iginla or similar replaces Hartnell. Jagr resigns at $1.5 million and Voracek fills in for Jagr when he gets tired)

Schenn - Briere - Voracek

Read - Talbot - Simmonds

Wellwood - Couturier - Harry Z

???? - Mez (The best #1 dman they can find that is 25/26/27 years old signed for 5-6 years)

Timo - Coburn

Gus - Grossman

MAB

Bryz / ???? ($1 million backup)

So on 3 positions you can spend $14 million.

For those Hartnell lovers, there is no doubt that Hartnell raised his game this year BUT remember that he is playing with two HOF players on his line. IHowever, Giroux needs someone on his line that can CREATE offense, not just benefit from Giroux's creativity.

actually since you are not including Hartnell you have over 18 million to play with.

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i guess i think that is an empty and meaningless label, and thus is a poor basis for drawing a comparison. the two players don't do any of the same stuff, the games they play are entirely different. it's like putting a lotus elise and a camaro next to each other and judging them by the same stick because they are both "sports cars".

hartnell plays a bang-bodies/crash-the-net game, where JVR plays a power-posession game a la rick nash. hartnell developed as he gained confidence and learned where the lines were that he shouldn't cross and how to push that envelope. JVR will develop as he learns how to use his size to hold the puck and how to fit that ability into an otherwise traditional offensive game. in other words, how to find passing lanes, how to get open, how to support a puck carrier, etc. the two use completely different skill sets, the only commonality being they are both bigger than average.

my worry about JVR is i don't see him thinking out there, i see him executing. i see him with a plan before he gets the puck, and then putting that plan into action at all costs. joni pitkanen was the same way, he didn't look for opportunities that presented themselves, he did the thing he had previously decided to do. if it was carry the puck deep and circle around the net, he was going to carry the puck deep and circle around the net. there could be 3 forwards in wide open passing lanes just waiting for a pass as joni dove deep, but he had a plan and was going to keep on it. tons of skill, zero awareness.

i guess that kind of thing can be learned, maybe...but i would tihnk there'd have to be at least a kernal of it there to start off with, and i don't see it. in any case, JVR faces a whole different set of challenges than hartnell did, and his developement is going to hing on a seperate set of does-he-get-it. they may take the same amoutn of time or whatever, but they'll be a coincidence.

this maybe sounds more arguementative than i intended it to be. if so, sorry 'bout that. i just think JVR has a real problem to overcome, and it's one that you don't generally see from a kid with his pedigree. i don't know if i can think of a real model for the kind of learning he has to do. nash knew how to continually re-evaluate his surroundings out of the gate. hartnell's game isn't particularly concerned with his surroundings, given that carrying the puck isn't his primary role. tocchet played the same game as hartnell. neely was similar to nash and JVR, but he also knew how to think the game from the get go.

the one guy that keeps coming to mind missing the same peice as JVR is pitkanen. offensively, anyway. joni's problems were even more...problematic...defensively, but there it is. i don't know if you can teach that kind of dog this kind of new trick.

You, of course, just dismissed the other obvious points of similarity I actually listed, but I digest...

The Flyers picked a bad year to have their worst season in the history of the franchise, and then lost the lottery to boot. I'll grant you that.

But when you look at that draft, the next player in the top ten I'd like to have on my roster, I do have on my roster (Voracek). I don't think Gagner would have the same stats outside of Edmonton. But he wouldn't be my next choice, and was a C which was a stocked position.

Three would be Couture. Would you trade JVR straight up for Logan Couture? Couture has two more years at $2.875M. Then he's in his last year as an RFA.

What's it going to take to re-sign him if he continues to develop as he has?

The Flyers have JVR at $3.125M (actual value) over those same two years and then have four more on the books. What would it have taken to re-sign him if he continues to develop?

Good call? Bad call? We'll obviously see. But from where I sit, I think we've got a 25-30 goal scorer with a higher upside.

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You, of course, just dismissed the other obvious points of similarity I actually listed, but I digest...

well, the other similarities you mentioned were draft position, point production and contract. those don't have anything to do with the players developing similarly. i didn't mean to dimiss anything, but i didn't see those points as really bearing on whether scott hartnell's increasing effectiveness was a model JVR will follow.

as for the draft pick itself, i agree. the flyers picked exactly the worst year to have their personal worst year. there was a real #1 pick in that class, and then a bunch of 10-20 picks. they took the best of that bunch, but...you really get the feeling that had he been a year older or a year younger JVR wouldn't have broken the top 10. but there it is. the flyers did the best they could, but i continue to be not real hopefull about it panning out like a #2 pick should. if i saw even a tiny little spark of creativity, then it'd be different...but i keep seeing him decide to execute attack plan alpha-4 and try to skate through coverages regardless of what other options present themselves.

he'll probably end up being a fine 2nd line winger, and alpha-4 will work some of the time. he's got the skills to pull off some impressive stuff. his lack of vision will put a ceiling on it, though. if the flyers decide defensive help is a priority this summer, there are still some people out there who disagree with me, soo...maybe holmgren can leverage that.

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well, the other similarities you mentioned were draft position, point production and contract. those don't have anything to do with the players developing similarly. i didn't mean to dimiss anything, but i didn't see those points as really bearing on whether scott hartnell's increasing effectiveness was a model JVR will follow.

Haven't you brought up JVR's production vis a vis other 2nd overall picks on occasion?

I could be conflating you with other posters here, but I've seen the comparison between JVR as a 2 and other 2s frequently used to demean JVR (Ryan, Malkin, Staal, Spezza) and comparisons to other players in the same draft class (Gagner, Couture, Voracek) in the same way.

Regardless of whether he does this here or is the bait for a young defenseman, draft position, point production and contract are three very valid means of comparing development of players *at the same age* which is what I'm doing with Hartnell. And Couture, who's in the same draft class and will be making in real dollars all of $250K less than JVR over the next two seasons and will be up for re-signing as a 30 goal scorer who I expect will demand more than the $4.25M the Flyers will have committed to JVR.

The question is does JVR become a consistent 30 goal scorer. You bring up some very valid points about JVR's development and there are lingering questions about his commitment and grit, etc..

For me, even with the questions and concerns, JVR at $4.25M is a good investment for a team whether it be the Flyers or a team willing to give up a young defenseman for him.

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