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Matt Carle deserves his own off season thread


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i don't think they can. there is no "retirement" in the middle of a valid SPC. the contract stays active until it expires. the player can refuse to report to whatever assignment the team gives him, at which point he is suspended and his cap hit removed, but he still has a contract. the transfer agreement between the NHL and KHL says each league will honor the contracts of the other. the "radulov rule". kovalchuk and bryzgalov can leave with years remaining on their deals, but they will have to stop playing professional hockey for any serious league at that point.

Radulov has been playing in the KHL and his contract has not been on the Preds' cap. His RIGHTS were kept by the Preds because he was a RFA.

Andreychuk did exactly what I am talking about, and when he reitred after refusing assignment his number came off the Bolts' cap (he then left the Bolts for a year and signed as staff with them). Kasparaitis was assigned to the AHL and then "loaned" to the KHL - his contract was off the Rags' cap. The Mogilny Rule was implemented to get his $3.5M contract off the Devils' cap - despite being 35+ (and might be a means of addressing Pronger).

Lastly, whether or not they go play in the KHL, Kovalchuk at 39 has five more years at $2M apiece - after getting $90M over the first 9 years of the deal. (We also have no idea what the transfer agreement will be in 6-10 years)

Regardless, with no NMC, if the Devils don't feel that he's worth keeping at $6.66M then they can easily Mogilny him to the River Rats and then he can refuse to report.

Bryz's contract isn't as silly as Kovalchuk's, but he's $7M a year for six years and then $3M a year for the last three. For guys in their late 30s, it just doesn't pass the "smell test" for me.

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@radoran

radulov refused to report to the preds and signed a contract with the KHL. the preds suspended him, and retained his rights because he still had a theoretically binding contract with them. he returned to the preds this season to complete that contract. the NHL and KHL negotiated a new transfer agreement in 2008, literally days after (or before, depending on who you talk to) radulov signed in russia, in which they agreed to not allow new contracts with players already under contract in the other league. starting in the summer radulov went to russia, it can't happen anymore.

andreychuk was waived and assigned to the AHL but was not required to report. i can't find any cap info for the bolts in 06-07, but i presume they carried his cap hit as a 35+ contract.

kasparaitis's move to the KHL was in 2007, a year before the 2008 transfer agreement with the KHL.

mogilny was placed on LTIR for the last years of his contract. the "mogilny rule" is the 35+ clause requiring that contracts with older players count against the cap no matter what, LTIR being the one exception. ironically, mogilny and the debbies found a way to sidestep the mogilny rule. he wasn't really hurt, and so it was initially thought they would have to carry his cap hit for the remainder of the contract, thus the nickname for the rule as the first player to be effected by the 35+ clause under the new CBA. the NHL then controversially allowed him to be placed on the LTIR and the devils were off the hook. cap-wise, anyway.

my only point is that kovalchuk surrendered any swansong in the KHL by signing an NHL contract that will tie him up until he's 42. i guess he could give it a go at that point, though. i agree, there is no intention for these guys to play out the last year's of their contracts. they'll either be bought out at the end, or will simply refuse to report, at which point their cap hit goes away. just saying they won't do that until they are really done with hockey.

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@radoran

radulov refused to report to the preds and signed a contract with the KHL. the preds suspended him, and retained his rights because he still had a theoretically binding contract with them. he returned to the preds this season to complete that contract. the NHL and KHL negotiated a new transfer agreement in 2008, literally days after (or before, depending on who you talk to) radulov signed in russia, in which they agreed to not allow new contracts with players already under contract in the other league. starting in the summer radulov went to russia, it can't happen anymore.

andreychuk was waived and assigned to the AHL but was not required to report. i can't find any cap info for the bolts in 06-07, but i presume they carried his cap hit as a 35+ contract.

kasparaitis's move to the KHL was in 2007, a year before the 2008 transfer agreement with the KHL.

mogilny was placed on LTIR for the last years of his contract. the "mogilny rule" is the 35+ clause requiring that contracts with older players count against the cap no matter what, LTIR being the one exception. ironically, mogilny and the debbies found a way to sidestep the mogilny rule. he wasn't really hurt, and so it was initially thought they would have to carry his cap hit for the remainder of the contract, thus the nickname for the rule as the first player to be effected by the 35+ clause under the new CBA. the NHL then controversially allowed him to be placed on the LTIR and the devils were off the hook. cap-wise, anyway.

my only point is that kovalchuk surrendered any swansong in the KHL by signing an NHL contract that will tie him up until he's 42. i guess he could give it a go at that point, though. i agree, there is no intention for these guys to play out the last year's of their contracts. they'll either be bought out at the end, or will simply refuse to report, at which point their cap hit goes away. just saying they won't do that until they are really done with hockey.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2006/01/11/andreychuk060111.html

A veteran of 22-plus NHL seasons, Andreychuk will have his $800,000 US contract honoured by Tampa Bay this year. He also is due $525,000 US in 2006-07.

Should Andreychuk choose to retire, Tampa Bay won't be on the hook for the balance of his salary.

Can't find "cap hit" effect from the $525K either. But, this is somewhat of apples and oranges as Andreychuk was over-35 and Kovalchuk is not. The point that the Devils can void the contract if he "retires" remains and that since it is under 35 the cap hit isn't there, either.. Bryz can "agree" to be waived and then refuse to report and - voila.

And, again, we have no idea what the transfer agreement will look like 6-9 years from now. Why shouldn't players who would be required to play in the minor leagues be able to move to another "major" league? I'll bet there are... well, at least two NHL Gms who would be in favor. And from two rather influential teams, too... :-)

Or what the new CBA will bring, for that matter. It may change how these long term contracts are calculated which makes all of this moot.

I just don't believe Kovalchuk and Bryzgalov will be playing the full terms of their contracts. And I don't believe they ever intended to, either.

Never have. Never will - until they actually do.

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I just don't believe Kovalchuk and Bryzgalov will be playing the full terms of their contracts. And I don't believe they ever intended to, either.

agree there, completely. same with pronger, which made his 35+ status at the time of signing, particularly hard to swallow.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Should we make anything of the fact that Matt Carle isn't signed yet?

Carle's agent and/or Carle believe they can get more money on the open market than the Flyers are currently offering - if, indeed, an offer has even been made?

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Carle's agent and/or Carle believe they can get more money on the open market than the Flyers are currently offering - if, indeed, an offer has even been made?

I feel very sure an offer has been made. Carle indicated his preference is to stay. Homer seemed to indicate that they were close however I thought he was foolish to say he thought he could keep Carle "below market". Might be that Carle's agent is using time as leverage.

Could be that they aren't as close as Homer suggested. I've seen no scuttlebutt, no speculation even.

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I feel very sure an offer has been made. Carle indicated his preference is to stay. Homer seemed to indicate that they were close however I thought he was foolish to say he thought he could keep Carle "below market". Might be that Carle's agent is using time as leverage.

Could be that they aren't as close as Homer suggested. I've seen no scuttlebutt, no speculation even.

The problem is the cap and not knowing where it will go and also having all bonuses currently counting against it.

Capgeek shows the Flyers with about $3M in cap space, and $3.5M in potential bonuses - at the current cap level. If the cap goes to $69M, add about another $5M.

If they RFA tag Harry Z and Voracek, they use up $3.125M in space right there (Z is $900k).

Leaving them with $5M (plus Pronger's LTIR, which as I read it doesn't go into effect until after preseason??) - pending resolution of the bonus issue.

Can they fit Suter and Carle in under $5M? Can they fit both even under $10M (assuming Pronger's LTIR is immediate)?

I don't see it.

I think it is much more likely that Weber goes for a 1-year deal and the Flyers use Timonen's money to go after him next year.

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The problem is the cap and not knowing where it will go and also having all bonuses currently counting against it.

I don't see uncertainty about the cap figuring into this because all teams are operating under an assumption that the cap rises. That might need to be addressed by an across the board roll back or not, as the case may be, but all teams have a baseline figure to work from during the summer. I'm not sure about bonus because I just don't know how the numbers work for the Flyers.

If they indeed have $3MM, I believe they also have 10% above the new cap figure of $69MM for the duration of the off season. This gives them about $10MM. If this is correct, it is difficult to imagine that cap space would prevent them from giving Matt Carle a $2MM raise. However, I believe the "off season" begins on July 1. Perhaps this is also the day they announce Carle's resigning.

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I don't see uncertainty about the cap figuring into this because all teams are operating under an assumption that the cap rises. That might need to be addressed by an across the board roll back or not, as the case may be, but all teams have a baseline figure to work from during the summer. I'm not sure about bonus because I just don't know how the numbers work for the Flyers.

If they indeed have $3MM, I believe they also have 10% above the new cap figure of $69MM for the duration of the off season. This gives them about $10MM. If this is correct, it is difficult to imagine that cap space would prevent them from giving Matt Carle a $2MM raise. However, I believe the "off season" begins on July 1. Perhaps this is also the day they announce Carle's resigning.

Here's why teams can exceed the cap (in most cases): http://www.capgeek.c...-season-cap.php

Teams can exceed the salary cap's upper limit by 10 percent during the off-season. The following count toward the team's cap payroll:

  • All players on one-way contracts, regardless of where (or if) they were playing the previous year.
  • All players on two-way contracts, in proportion to the number of days spent on an NHL roster the previous season.
  • All restricted free agents who have been extended a qualifying offer (while the offer is valid), with one-way qualifying offers counting in full and two-way qualifying offers counting as described in No. 2.
  • All restricted free agents signed to an offer sheet (such players count against the team extending the offer sheet while it is still valid).
  • All buyouts.

Here's the Flyers (not the "official" off-season numbers) http://www.capgeek.c...rts.php?Team=24

It's the question of the unfinished CBA. Potential bonuses, which eat up $3.5M in cap space (Bob's cap hit is nearly double for example), are all applied to this year's cap instead to to next year's cap (as earned) - pending the new CBA agreement.

And re-signing RFA's like Voracek ($2.25M tender), Bourdon ($875K tender) and Z ($900K tender - assuming they want Z).

If they have $8M in cap space ($3M as noted plus $5M in new cap room) pending the bonus issue and consider Pronger's money as available, they would have $13-5M (or so) to get Carle and sign the RFAs (assuming they spend over the cap and then send a handful of contracts (Wellwood, Rinaldo, etc.) to the AHL. They may have another $3.5M if the bonus issue is resolved.

And sign another defenseman (although... Walker AND Bartulis are still under contract...)

They can announce a deal with Carle at any time - it is one of the few benefits that teams have that they can negotiate with their own players in the last year of their contracts. The deal would not apply on the cap until it takes effect July 1.

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@radoran

If I take the current cap figure, add Pronger back in, (and, using your figures) Bourdon, Voracek, Z and $3.5MM in bonus money, the Flyers are close to $74MM (out of a $75MM off season limit). So perhaps they can't sign Carle right now.

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