Blog - Internet Flyers need a better backup for Bryzgalov

[aziz]

@radoran

lol, yup

[canoli]

yeah, and the back n forth is what these forums are all about. Rad, you make good points using the facts (the numbers, generally) to support them.

But at some point you have to apply "the smell test" don't you? Meaning - forget the numbers and just watch the guy play. Bryzgalov fails the "watch him play" test in a big way. He's embarrassingly slow, perpetually confused about where to outlet the puck - on the rare occasions when he manages to control it, nonchalant about covering loose pucks at his feet, he practically never actually catches the puck he swats it away like it's a bee about to sting him...

...ah never mind...you've heard it all this sh-it before.

But I'm amazed by you. I don't see how on Earth you can be even a little optimistic about the Flyers until Bryzgalov is gone for good.

[doom88]

@canoli the power of spite is strong in @radoran haha. The Flyers will overcome!

[doom88]

Too bad the NHL doesn't track goalie giveaways. That would turn the smell test into an actual metric.

[radoran]

But I'm amazed by you. I don't see how on Earth you can be even a little optimistic about the Flyers until Bryzgalov is gone for good.

They got to the Finals with Bob/Boush/Leighton.

I like Bryz over that three-headed monster :-)

(I might have handled Bob differently, but for some reason Comcast-Spectacor doesn't listen to me).

[sarsippius]

@Green Man

Funny thing is....this place is philly.com, just with a much better format and an actual moderator who kills trolls. As long as people come in here and blind hate on my beloved Flyers players, including our goalie, I'm going to push back. It's called standing up to the loudmouths in the room and supporting the players on your team. I know, it's a foreign concept to many Philly fans, you know, the whole idea of getting behind and supporting a slumping player or having the patience beyond the level of a 3 year old child.

I want to like Bryz but he makes it hard. It's not blind hate. It's an assessment based on watching him play for an entire season. He's very slow going post to to post, looks thoroughly confused when the puckhandler is behind the net and does not cover up low in those sitations, and has displayed horrible puck handling skills (I mean christ he scored on himself in the Devils series). Furthermore his positioning at times was terrible, leading to many soft goals in critical situations. I mean really, how many beer league goals did he give up this year? Conversely, I would call your cheerleading blind enthusiasm, and if that's your thing I don't have a problem with. But realize that you can be a fan and support the team and the players, while at the same time making an objective critique of their performance. And my biggest problem is that you feel the need to denigrate other posters for doing exactly that.

Weird you can't understand the Ryan Howard analogy either, but part of me thinks you just want to bust my balls for standing up to the bryz haters. Here's the cliff notes, much of the Philly fanbase jumped on Howard last season after he got a huge contract and was not Babe Ruth (ignoring the Babe Ruth numbers he's had the previous 5 years). Now this year with Howard being out hurt, the middle of the Phillies lineup is one of the worst in baseball in terms of production. My point is that if you take the Bryz away from this team you would have a similar situation. I think the dopes calling Howard overpaid and overrated all last season look pretty stupid right now, just as many of the Bryz haters would look pretty stupid should the Flyers get stuck with Bob or some no-name in net next year.

See that's the thing about analogies. The two things you're comparing have to be ANALAGOUS. You're comparing a fact (Howard is out and the Phils are in last place) and a hypothetical based on your opinion (without Bryz the Flyers would be sitting in last place). This is not logic, this is an emotional argument based on your anger at those who dare speak their opinion on the goaltender. Play a year without Bryz and then you have something to compare, if not it's Chewbacca lived on Endor, hence the defendant is innocent.

You can think of all these other goalies you'd rather have? Really? Let me guess where most of them are right now. Oh yea.....sitting home watching just as Bryz is.

Well that's a silly statement to make during the Final, don't you think? By definition there are only two teams and two starting goalies left at this point in the calendar. So yes, there are goalies who are much better technically than Bryz, and did not make the final. By the way tune in tonight, and you'll see two of the goalies that ANYONE would rather have. Watch Quick, and tell me seriously that you think Bryz showed as much game this season.

Not trying to single you out either, I'm sure you are a die hard. Just so many people want to scapegoat the goalie when the team was never good enough to win the cup even if he stood on his head and they still come in here everyday and complain about him as if it was all his fault. Can't we just enjoy the game/sport without all the vile anger towards OUR players?

I don't think people complain that it's Bryz's fault they didn't win the Cup, we complain that he flat out stunk for most of the year. There are those that disagree with that, but funny they state their opinion instead of chiding and insulting the opposing viewpoint. Did you think he was good overall this year? Do you think he has the potential to be better next year? If so, then tell me why and try to back it up (ala Radoran) without telling people what lousy fan they are.

[Vanflyer]

Jesus this will be a long off season if people can't stop complaining about Bryz every ****** day in here.

Well there is no Richards or Carter to complain about (and both of them are well poised to raise the cup), so what else do you expect people to do??

He is the pre-emminent whipping boy. If he was not signed for 9 years AND to a 51m contract AND with a NMC AND was not so much a locker room lightning rod, then people would not complain as much. All he really has to do is show up next year, put up 2.45 gaa / 9.10 sv pctga and have a couple of hot streaks and steal maybe 2-4 games and people will be quiet.

[canoli]

All he really has to do is show up next year, put up 2.45 gaa / 9.10 sv pctga and have a couple of hot streaks and steal maybe 2-4 games and people will be quie

No. At least (speaking for myself) that wouldn't shut me up about him. Come on man that's Marty Biron numbers. Hell it's basically what he gave us this year isn't it? Jose Theodore can do that for us for $4 mil less per season.

If we'd only given The Bob a year of support (as in, "steady workload"). Whatever kind of year he would've had this past season he'd be even better now. As it is he's trade bait (or not) but pretty much useless as a backup. Boy did we fk ourselves with this Bryzgalov clown. We really did.

Seriously Van, don't you think for $51 million and a $5.67 mil cap hit we should be getting above average goaltending? [edit: remember? it was supposed to be the other way around]

We sure as hell shouldn't be racking our brains thinking, "Who can we bring in on D to minimize our Big FA Goalie's weaknesses..."

Also (sorry, I'm nailing every point you made - lol!) But... steal "2-4 games"? You mean per month or week or what? For the money and his b.s. about "I wanna be the highest-paid goalie in the NHL" he should be stealing games every week or at least be one of the obvious 3 stars.

Edited June 3, 2012 by canoli

[aziz]

@canoli

well said. how weird is it that the guy's supporters have gotten to the point of arguing that bryzgalov can be a run of the mill goaltender, we just have to give him a chance? "he is fully capable of hitting that top-20 in the league level, he just needs to get used to the eastern conf, the flyers have to get the right defense in front of him, laviolette needs to revamp his coverage, and the press/fans need to get off bryzgalov's back. then he won't be completely terrible, i promise."

then again, van is right, i'd probably cool down a little if we didn't the see ultra-soft goal 2 out of every 3 games like he has given up for years. it's one thing to think the guy is a waste of cap space and an impediment to developing world class goaltending in-house, it's something else entirely to believe he is an active roadblock to any real team success. if he can get me into the former catagory, that would be a step. it's sad that that's that best we can really hope for, but there it is.

[radoran]

Guy's signed for eight more years and for all intents and purposes isn't going anywhere for at least the next two seasons.

So I'm going to look for positives in my team's #1 goaltender.

I'm a Bryzgalov "supporter" because I am a Flyers fan and he is the goaltender and there is absolutely, positively nothing I can do about it.

I support the goaltender because I support the team.

Be angry about the length of term. Be angry about the cap hit. Be angry about the sub-par play for the majority of the season. Be angry about the stifling of developing talent.

But of all those things, only one of them is entirely Bryzgalov's fault and the other three are primarily management and ownership decisions. I'm working up a screed on management and will post it when fully realized.

The "disaster" of a season we just experienced included a second-round exit from the playoffs after replacing the a huge part of the core of the team (Pronger/Richards/Crater). Yes, the goalie who couldn't stop a determined 3-on-2 from a mite squad had his team in the second round of the playoffs. Where 3/4 of the teams in the league - including at least one or two with goalies who could stop a determined 3-on-2 from a mite squad - were not.

True story.

I was quite disappointed in Bryzgalov's play through most of the season. I've documented his streaky nonsense in W/L and noted that the inconsistency is worse in SV%/GAA.

Still, Bryzgalov is Not. Going. Anywhere.

I believe this team can - and will - do better next season. I believe Bryzgalov can - and will - do better next season.

Go Flyers.

[aziz]

Yes, the goalie who couldn't stop a determined 3-on-2 from a mite squad had his team in the second round of the playoffs.

this is where numbers without context can be misleading. the flyers ran into the only other goalie to play worse than bryzgalov in the first round. in order to advance, they had to matchup against a guy who posted a .834 sv%, because lord knows bryzgalov wasn't going win against anyone else with his .887.

had the penguins in general -and fluery in specific- not played the worst hockey any of us have seen in a long long time, bryzgalov wouldn't have "had" the flyers anywhere.

so, no extra credit for the second round appearance. he made it there almost by default.

[canoli]

The Pens self-destructed in ways nobody thought was possible. Goaltending was their biggest liability, Fleury was the worst player on the ice. This was unthinkable before the POs started. In any other year Bryzgalov earns "worst player on the ice" after that abysmal performance. In this case Fleury was so bad that by comparison (and only by comparison) Bryzgalov was better. But please let's not pretend our goalie was the reason we moved onto R2.

[edit: or just read what aziz said. I replied before reading his post. Well the point is worth making twice...lol]

Edited June 3, 2012 by canoli

[radoran]

The Pens self-destructed in ways nobody thought was possible. Goaltending was their biggest liability, Fleury was the worst player on the ice. This was unthinkable before the POs started. In any other year Bryzgalov earns "worst player on the ice" after that abysmal performance. In this case Fleury was so bad that by comparison (and only by comparison) Bryzgalov was better. But please let's not pretend our goalie was the reason we moved onto R2.

[edit: or just read what aziz said. I replied before reading his post. Well the point is worth making twice...lol]

No one is "pretending" the goalie was "the reason" they went into round two.

However Bryzgalov was IN round two, where about 3/4 of the other goalies were not.

You asked how I could possibly have any faith in the Flyers' success with Bryzgalov.

I give you: even with a goalie who, in your opinion, couldn't stop a determined 3-on-2 from a mite team, the Flyers were in the second round of the playoffs.

You have asserted unequivocally that the Flyers are incapable of any success with Bryzgalov.

And then have to spend your time explaining why the (limited) success the Flyers did have wasn't really success or that it was in spite of the goalie.

It was a specific answer to your specific question. If you didn't like the answer, ask better questions :-)

[doom88]

Pitt didn't have the D depth to handle Philly's O. Fleury was a victim in my opinion. Pitt tried to rely on diving and it didn't work as well as usual. Fleury has always been a hot/cold goalie, but his entire D and PK was horrible.

[aziz]

You have asserted unequivocally that the Flyers are incapable of any success with Bryzgalov.

And then have to spend your time explaining why the (limited) success the Flyers did have wasn't really success or that it was in spite of the goalie.

i suppose defining success is probably in order. is getting killed in the 2nd round success? because, sure, we've seen that the flyers are capable of that with bryzgalov in net. if their offense can bludgeon their way to a 3.12 goals-for average in the regular season, then sure, they will be able to overcome the 2.5-ish gaa and make the playoffs. if they can then romp over their opponents with a 4.97 goals-for average in the first round, then absolutely, they'll overcome the 4.30gaa and advance. is that "success"? dancing in the streets and such?

obviously, that kind of goaltending isn't going to go much further than that, so i hope you are satisfied with that kind of result. 3.46gaa/.887sv% in 2012. 4.36gaa/.879sv% in 2011. 3.44gaa/.906sv% in 2010 (broke .900 - w00t!). that this how bryzgalov handles the playoffs. that is the pattern. that is not getting you past the second round. that shouldn't get you past the first round, but maybe we can run into complete trainwrecks like this spring's penguins again once in a while. we certainly aren't going to run into 4 of them in 1 year, so expectations have to be limited. thus, i suppose, the defining a second round ouster as success.

[Vanflyer]

@canoli

I was a bit tongue in cheek on my 2.45 / 2.48, .910 sv pctg. Up through January he was at 2.75 / .870 sv pctg. Without his "player of the month" March, he would have remained there (which would have put him 31st in the league).

You are absolutely right, we should expect more for that money. But the reality is it is not going to happen. You are not going to get much better than what he is. Which is a 2.45 / .910 goaltender. What I want, knowing what he is, is some semblance of consistency. I don't want this "hot" guy in October / early November, cold December / January, mediocre February / hot March. I want a guy that when the team takes the ice every night, the skaters are not having the shakes wondering what kind of goalie is going to be in net that night.

Mind you, there will be clunkers, but I want them to offset the the steals. So, if he steals 4, then he can clunk 4. In between all that, I want consistency.

Your points are all valid and I actually am thinking the same way. Yet, its not going to happen and he is such a flake between the ears, that any muster of some semblance of support (should he be able to play to his career average), will go much further than a continual barrage of this guy sucks (which he does) banter.

Truthfully, I would have rather had Vokoun here and let Bobs screw the pooch than to have this albatross. Bobs is 23 and has a tremendous work ethic and while he has deficiencies, the team embraces him. That goes a long way. I know it speaks to the "boucher" / "nitty" type goaltender scheme of years gone by, but its also 7 years and 4m dollars less until you find "the one".

Effing senile Snider!

[radoran]

i suppose defining success is probably in order. is getting killed in the 2nd round success? because, sure, we've seen that the flyers are capable of that with bryzgalov in net. if their offense can bludgeon their way to a 3.12 goals-for average in the regular season, then sure, they will be able to overcome the 2.5-ish gaa and make the playoffs. if they can then romp over their opponents with a 4.97 goals-for average in the first round, then absolutely, they'll overcome the 4.30gaa and advance. is that "success"? dancing in the streets and such?

obviously, that kind of goaltending isn't going to go much further than that, so i hope you are satisfied with that kind of result. 3.46gaa/.887sv% in 2012. 4.36gaa/.879sv% in 2011. 3.44gaa/.906sv% in 2010 (broke .900 - w00t!). that this how bryzgalov handles the playoffs. that is the pattern. that is not getting you past the second round. that shouldn't get you past the first round, but maybe we can run into complete trainwrecks like this spring's penguins again once in a while. we certainly aren't going to run into 4 of them in 1 year, so expectations have to be limited. thus, i suppose, the defining a second round ouster as success.

Again, I was responding to a query asking how I could possibly have any hope for the Flyers with Bryzgalov in net.

And, yes, if you had put "second round exit to Stanley Cup Finalist" on the list of possible outcomes before preseason started, after the Flyers lost whatever % of their goal scoring and how ever could they possibly score goals? People would have voted and said it was not a bad outcome.

And, quite frankly, it wasn't.

The Flyers exceeded expectations this season. Fact.

The Flyers are positioned well to build upon their achievements this season. Fact.

You can focus on how the goalie who was playing in the second round of the playoffs can't stop a determined 3-on-2 from a mite team if you'd like.

I'll add ice to the glass half full. It's hockey.

[aziz]

And, yes, if you had put "second round exit to Stanley Cup Finalist" on the list of possible outcomes before preseason started, after the Flyers lost whatever % of their goal scoring and how ever could they possibly score goals? People would have voted and said it was not a bad outcome.

And, quite frankly, it wasn't.

The Flyers exceeded expectations this season. Fact.

true, from the perspective that there were a lot of questionmarks up and down the roster entering the season. in the abstract, fans couldn't really have expected much more than a 2nd round exit, given how little we knew of the shape of the team in october. so, point made.

The Flyers are positioned well to build upon their achievements this season. Fact.

this is not, in fact, a fact. this is subjective speculation. the flyers' skaters are positioned to get stronger over the next several seasons, yes, but the flyers as a whole...remains to be seen. and something that remains to be seen is not, by definition, a fact. a goaltender who cumbles under pressure, and then crumbles further under the scrutiny from the initial crumbling under pressure -and who carries a deeply flawed skillset in anycase- represents a hard cap on what the team can accomplish. the only "fact" we have is that bryzgalov has proven himself 3 times incapable of maintaining even a par level of starting goaltending in april, and has only been the starter in may when his april opposition suffers an epic meltdown. this being the "fact", the flyers as whole will be unable to build upon anything beyond a certain low level. "low level" being relative to what we, as flyers fans, expect to at least be possible.

I'll add ice to the glass half full. It's hockey.

i'd love to go there with you. i would. hacket/biron/leighton/boucher/bob were all problems, and way less than i would have liked the flyers to have in net. i've always wanted the flyers to have top notch goaltending, and they never seem to be able to find it...but you can win with average, so long as it is consistent and provides a steady baseline performance. so, i was unhappy back in the day, but i could get over it, the team would just have to step up beyond the less-than-stellar goaltending. i could go with glass is half full. now, not the case. i do not believe bryzgalov is capable of providing even that steady baseline average. perversely, he gets worse the more the team needs its goaltending to be a part of its success. it might be possible to win with average, but it is not possible to win with bad, which is what bryzgalov delivers in critical situations again and again, year after year. thus, it is not possible for the flyers to go beyond a certain point. thus, the glass is most assuredly half emtpy. 3/4 empty, really.

i can hope snider gets out from under the contract over the summer. i can hope a backup is brought in and is allowed to win the starting job. that's really all the hope i have, though. if bryzgalov is starting come next april, the flyers will be eliminated the first time they face a team that isn't selfdestructing. nothing i have seen out of this guy over the last 4 years says there is any basis for thinking otherwise.

thus:

btw, i do, in fact, admire your upbeatness about all of this. i really don't mean to step all over that. if you think things can work out, then good on you, go with that. the game is a lot more fun to watch if you think the sky is conceivably the limit. i'm trying to explain how the math on this thing is working in my head, but i don't mean to be campaigning for the point of view or anything.

[Podein25]

i do, in fact, admire your upbeatness about all of this.

No you don't. It's not a fact.

You're just trying to be nice, which is admirable. Or not.

[aziz]

@Podein25

not true. rad is not some homer who can't develop his own opinion. he is fully capable, and has managed to find a way to see a bright side to this. that is a good thing. I really do wish I could do the same in this situation. unfortunately, I can't, and he is going to be able to enjoy the season way more than me because of it. my point is not to destroy that, only to explain why my point of view is what it is.

[Podein25]

@

I'm just busting your chops buddy. I understand.

[aziz]

ha, well, it appears I'm a bit sensitive about my insincerity.

[Green Man]

@Green Man

I want to like Bryz but he makes it hard. It's not blind hate. It's an assessment based on watching him play for an entire season. He's very slow going post to to post, looks thoroughly confused when the puckhandler is behind the net and does not cover up low in those sitations, and has displayed horrible puck handling skills (I mean christ he scored on himself in the Devils series). Furthermore his positioning at times was terrible, leading to many soft goals in critical situations. I mean really, how many beer league goals did he give up this year? Conversely, I would call your cheerleading blind enthusiasm, and if that's your thing I don't have a problem with. But realize that you can be a fan and support the team and the players, while at the same time making an objective critique of their performance. And my biggest problem is that you feel the need to denigrate other posters for doing exactly that.

See that's the thing about analogies. The two things you're comparing have to be ANALAGOUS. You're comparing a fact (Howard is out and the Phils are in last place) and a hypothetical based on your opinion (without Bryz the Flyers would be sitting in last place). This is not logic, this is an emotional argument based on your anger at those who dare speak their opinion on the goaltender. Play a year without Bryz and then you have something to compare, if not it's Chewbacca lived on Endor, hence the defendant is innocent.

Well that's a silly statement to make during the Final, don't you think? By definition there are only two teams and two starting goalies left at this point in the calendar. So yes, there are goalies who are much better technically than Bryz, and did not make the final. By the way tune in tonight, and you'll see two of the goalies that ANYONE would rather have. Watch Quick, and tell me seriously that you think Bryz showed as much game this season.

I don't think people complain that it's Bryz's fault they didn't win the Cup, we complain that he flat out stunk for most of the year. There are those that disagree with that, but funny they state their opinion instead of chiding and insulting the opposing viewpoint. Did you think he was good overall this year? Do you think he has the potential to be better next year? If so, then tell me why and try to back it up (ala Radoran) without telling people what lousy fan they are.

Fair enough Sarsi, my thin skin in dealing with player criticism is showing it's ugly head. I agree that he played below the level of his contract, but his play in March proved to me it was not a mistake bringing him in....and that he is a good enough & component to build around for a cup run in 2013. I also agree with your assessment on his lateral movement, it makes me cringe at times too.

Overall I vented at you on one of my biggest pet pieves as a Philly fan that goes beyond just Bryz: the over the top abuse and criticism many of our star players endure. From Schmidt, to Lindros to Rolen to McNabb, to Bryz, it seems if a player is not a sterotypical man-card macho player, or even a little on the sensitive side, the fanbase tends to come down too hard on our guys. The booing of Lindros the first time he returned as a Ranger and every time he touched the puck........it still disgusts me a decade later. So I tend to jump the gun over the "he sucks" crap you hear all too often with our star players, including Bryz who I think is great/funny guy and a darn good goalie.

Sorry to jump on you with the rant, nothing personal obviously. I'm going to keep it quiet for a while on the Bryz cheerleading, I think I've made my point well enough in various threads.

[sarsippius]

@Green Man

It's all good.

I remember sitting in the seats during the 70s hearing Schmitty getting boo'd. I can remember my dad saying "the only time he hits a home run is when there's nobody on base and/or the Phils are winning/losing by 8 runs". And there was a bit of truth to that early in his career. It wasn't until that MVP/World Championship season in 1980 that people started realizing what they had in Schmidt. Lindros though.....there was a reason people resented him after the trade, that's a story for another thread.....

[doom88]

The Lindros thing transcended normal by leaps and bounds. That said, he was celebrated at the Winter Classic as he should.