The Jordan Staal issue...

[Polaris922]

What do people really think of Jordan Staal? There's a lot of hype about this guy. People rave about his defensive play and scoring ability. He gets a lot of attention, with recent rumors of Edmonton trading the number one pick for him...

I think he's the most overrated player to wear a Penguins uniform since perhaps Peter Nedved. He had a great playoff series against the Flyers goal scoring wise, but factor in the five goals scored primarily because of his blown assignments in the first three games and he doesn't look so spectacular anymore. Or maybe his poking the puck to Talbot for a goal rings a bell?

I don't think Staal is all that. He was plus 11 for the season which puts him one higher than Engelland and Kennedy, but not anywhere near Selke levels. 25 goals in 62 games is good though, but Dupuis is paid much less and managed to outplay Staal in every aspect of the game.

I think the Pens hype him up too much based on a great rookie season and if the Oilers are crazy enough to make that trade is take it in a heartbeat.

[sarsippius]

Interesting. I was talking to a Pens fan at the last regular season Flyers-Pens game this year, and he was similarly not impressed with Staal, said he'd be happy to trade him for value.

I realize this post is completely devoid of any real substance, I'm just bored

[Polaris922]

I realize this post is completely devoid of any real substance, I'm just bored

I don't think it's devoid... Tells me I'm not the only one seeing it this way. Lol

[Vanflyer]

@Polaris922

I think you are selling Jordan Staal way short. For starters, he has been hampered by injuries the past couple of years. I like Staal and think he is good value at 4M. He has played third fiddle on the Pens because Crosby and Malkin. Third fiddle only in the sense that he gets third line line mates, yet he still plays 20 minutes a night and has for several years. He plays in all game situations and is a centerman.

Staal would be a #2 center on any other team than Pittsburgh. He is a .8 ppg player and extremely defensively responsible. Not selke level as you said, but certainly one of the top two-way centermen in the league.

I thought he was the best pittsburgh player the last 3 games in the playoffs against the Flyers. I would absolutely love him in O&B, yet we are pretty stocked at Center for the next several years.

The biggest thing is that Pittsburgh needs to figure out what they are going to do with their center situation. You have Crosby and Staal signed for only one more season and Malkin for two. Truthfully, if I am king of the world in Pittsburgh, I keep Staal and Malkin and move Crosby. I say that because I think that is the best value option. I think you can re-sign Staal for near about what he is making now (4M) and the return you would get for Crosby would be significant.

Yet, Crosby has a NMC, so that might be difficult.

On the Edmonton rumor, that is just insane. For starters, Edmonton is pretty stacked at Center with Horcoff, Nugent-Hopkins, Belanger and Gagne. Secondly and more importantly, Staal for the #1 pick (Yakupov) is not equitable in any fashion. Yakupov makes Hemsky expendable.

[flyercanuck]

@Polaris922

Tough situation to be in. Rumors are swirling Staal isn't happy being a 3rd liner anymore. The guy is usually excellent defensively, and can bring the offence as he showed in the Philly series. It'd be a tough call which center to trade out of Pittsburgh. Crosby would be a no-brainer to keep if it wasn't for the concussion issues. Malkin can be an MVP type player, or a no show. He does both quite well. I'd hate to have to make that decision, but it's better than having the Leafs centers.

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922

...,certainly one of the top two-way centermen in the league.

Thanks for replying. I hear this a lot from people I just don't see what that comment is based on. It's been a debate topic here. I watch every game of the season and I can't begin to count the number of goals scored against Staal's lines because of his lack of effort. He CAN be great defensively, but at other times he's a lot like Malkin in that he gets lazy defensively.

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922

Tough situation to be in. Rumors are swirling Staal isn't happy being a 3rd liner anymore. The guy is usually excellent defensively, and can bring the offence as he showed in the Philly series. It'd be a tough call which center to trade out of Pittsburgh. Crosby would be a no-brainer to keep if it wasn't for the concussion issues. Malkin can be an MVP type player, or a no show. He does both quite well. I'd hate to have to make that decision, but it's better than having the Leafs centers.

I doubt they'll move Crosby at this point because of the impact on the franchise here. I understand the concussion issue and what if the next hit retires him, but I think the public relations of it almost requires they hold on to him. And though I totally agree with your opinion of Malkin, you don't let a repeat scoring champion walk either. Bye bye Staal if a trigger has to be pulled. He can be unhappy at third line, but with Bylsma the third line plays almost as much as the first.

[Vanflyer]

@Polaris922

I am basing it on the limited games I get to see of him. You would know much better than I. Is he lazy of hampered? I ask because watching the other two Staal brothers, lazy does not seem to be an adjetive to describe either one of them.

On the rumor mill, it is said that if he is traded, he would really like to go to Carolina to play with his brother. Any assets there that are worth while coming back to the Penguins from your point of view?

[flyercanuck]

I doubt they'll move Crosby at this point because of the impact on the franchise here. I understand the concussion issue and what if the next hit retires him, but I think the public relations of it almost requires they hold on to him. And though I totally agree with your opinion of Malkin, you don't let a repeat scoring champion walk either. Bye bye Staal if a trigger has to be pulled. He can be unhappy at third line, but with Bylsma the third line plays almost as much as the first.

Sure, but your linemates aren't anywhere near James neal calibre.

[Polaris922]

Sure, but your linemates aren't anywhere near James neal calibre.

Neither are Crosby's though... Great centers make better wingers. I understand you only play so many years though and have to fulfill your dreams while you can.

[flyerrod]

He can be unhappy at third line, but with Bylsma the third line plays almost as much as the first.

Yeah but look at who he gets stuck playing with.....

[Polaris922]

Yeah but look at who he gets stuck playing with.....

Right but again, short of Neal they're all in that boat. Crosby gets Kunitz and Dupuis, and their numbers climb. If Staal is such a hockey talent, it shouldn't matter who he plays with. I don't consider Hartnell a hockey talent by any means, but Giroux sure made him better this year. I would like to see them trade away Staal for a legitimate scoring winger to play beside Crosby. Then bring in a good defensive center to shut down opposing number one's.

[Polaris922]

Any assets there that are worth while coming back to the Penguins from your point of view?

Jeff Skinner... but realistically speaking.. maybe LaRose and a pick or two along with him. They really don't have much on their roster worth going after.

[hf101]

@Polaris922, @Vanflyer

As Van said...."lazy or hampered" I think Staal is more hampered than lazy in the roles Staal has been given. I thought Staal really rose to the role two seasons ago when both Crosby and Malkin were out. He kept that team in running for a playoff spot. He led the Pens this season with 9 points in the playoffs, he was also a +2. Both Malkin and Crosby were a +/- minus. On the other hand when Staal was out of the lineup with an injury, the team struggled for wins.

I can't blame him really with being bored as the third line center. He is capable of much more. If the Pens don't trade him he probably will be a highly sought after FA after next season.

[mojo1917]

@Polaris922

i think you ditch Staal at your team's peril.

look at the record with him in the line up vs without.

he gives the line up flexibility , wins face offs, his line is often sent out after a goal to either seize back the momentum or deliver a dagger to the heart. he kills penalties...and has great hockey I Q

I have thought for a while that he is the key to pens success.

your team wins when malkin or crosby is unable to play; but when 11 isn't able to dress the results are worse what does that tell you ?

you and I have talked talent before, is tyler kennedy a 3rd line player without staal ? who is staal's other winger ? i don't even know, so maybe get some talent around him and you'll like his production more.

i think of your big 3, 87 should be the odd man out because of his health issues, most likely it will be staal; but i don't think the pens replace him easily and win as much with him on another team.

[Polaris922]

i don't think the pens replace him easily and win as much with him on another team

I watch time after time as his defensive mistakes lead to opponents' goals. I watch his lazy backchecking to the point of frustration. I watch him miss open net after open net. He is usually lined up with Cooke and Kennedy. Those three had great chemistry together for a couple of years, but this year were mostly split up. His play frustrates me even more than Malkin's can and much more often. I'm not unrealistic either, I know he's not a 40 goal scorer. The stats this past season are pretty clear though... I can only find stats for a partial season regarding this topic.. so I'm going with what I can find.

Crosby: The team had a .625 winning percentage in Sid’s eight contests and earned points in 75 percent of the games he played, improvements on the team's .604 winning and 63.5% earned points in the 52 games without him.

Malkin: See how useless stats are? The Penguins were 4-2-1 in the seven games Malkin missed last season, giving them better win and points percentages than in the 53 games he’s been in the lineup.

Would those numbers hold up over the course of a season? I don't think so.

Letang: The Penguins have a .688 winning percentage with Letang in the lineup (23-14-3), a number which dropped much, much lower (11-7-2, .611 win percentage) in the 23 games he missed. Letang was out for each match in the six-game losing streak suffered in late December and early January.

Fleury: Fleury was 42-17-4 in his 64 games of record as a starter, a .656 winning percentage and .719 points percentage. Pretty damn good. (full season)

Staal: Through 60 games Staal missed 20 games last season. In those 20 games, the Penguins have a .650 points percentage. In the 40 games he’s played, the Penguins have a .650 points percentage.

Most of these stats come from an article towards the end of the season by James Conley. Simply put, Staal IS the most expendable of them. If you take away the freak stats or Malkin's that is, and I don't see anybody thinking Staal has a greater impact on the Pens final scores than Malkin overall.

Again in the series against your Flyers, Staal had a great games 4 and 5... and even 6. But in games 1-3 I can point out 5 goals against that were blown coverages or mistakes on his part. I just don't see what everyone thinks he does so great. If you watched his play throughout the year, I think you'd see what I'm talking about.

Thanks for your opinion though! If you know where to get more specific stats for the entire season please share it. I searched and searched and could only find partials.

[mojo1917]

well, you do watch your team more than i do, especially this year. i was remembering a couple of years ago when staal had his knee injury and the pens had a pretty bad slide, however i think that was also coupled with the beginning of crosby's concussion trouble i may be remembering incorrectly, and staal's play may have dropped off to where he is expendable, i've always thought he was a good player who played his role exceptionally well he's a guy that i always coveted from your roster., perhaps i'll have to reconsider.

[hf101]

@Polaris922

Apparently Buffalo is interested in trading for Jordan Staal.

The Sabres have exactly what Ray Shero and the Penguins are looking for in a trade partner: 2 first rounders and 2 second rounders in the NHL draft. Regier also has assets in Derek Roy, who is a 70 point centre. He can also sweeten a deal with prospects like Luke Adam and Mark Pysyk. I'd even include Jhonas Enroth in a package for Staal. The Pens desperately need a back up to Marc Andre Fleury. The Sabres can find a veteran backup via trade or free agency while their young behemoth backstops, Lieuwen and Knapp, learn the pro game in Rochester.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/GARTH/Staal-In/6/44713

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922

Apparently Buffalo is interested in trading for Jordan Staal

Now THAT looks a lot more promising than Carolina. I'd like them to go after Stafford or Vanek than Roy though. We could really use a winger more than center. Thanks for the update!

[hf101]

@Polaris922

Of course Toronto also has interest. Luke Schenn is one possibility and Nazem Kadr is another. I highly doubt Pittsburgh would take an even up trade. Toronto is going to need to at least give up a high draft pick as well.

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922

Of course Toronto also has interest. Luke Schenn is one possibility and Nazem Kadr is another. I highly doubt Pittsburgh would take an even up trade. Toronto is going to need to at least give up a high draft pick as well.

Yeah Schenn gets high marks, and I've read a lot about Kadr but not really sure what to make of that yet. Clubs are showing interest but Shero has only said he's still hoping to keep Staal alongside Crosby and Malkin.