Trade Talk How many times did we hear "we have arguably the best defense"

[RonJeremy]

Right now our defense is really up in the air, Pronger is done, Timmonen is coming off back surgery and has slowed down big time, Mez is coming off back surgery, who knows if their back injuries dont get worse over the season, back surgery is not a sure fire cure. Both could have lingering problems and be in and out of the lineup through the season. Bourdon missed two long stretches with concussions and Carle is an UFA. So right now the only sure things are Coburn and Grossman. Sure we have Gus, but is he ready for a full time spot and we have LILJA who is horrible. For the past 3 years all we heard is "we have arguably the best defense in hockey" yet every year our defense is decimated with injuries and in the middle of the pack in GAA. We need to concentrate on defense first ,as far as our offseason goes.To me ,we need to add two dmen to this team, one defensive, physical guy, and one guy with puck/PP skills, since Pronger, Timmo and Carle are all question marks, there goes our only dmen with any offensive skills.

From what I have read Suter and Garrison are the two best UFA dmen, Suter has 7 or 8 teams that will be offering big $$, so that will drive the price up, so who knows if the Flyers have any shot for him.Maybe we sign Garrison and then make a deal for another good youn dman, using JVR as the trade bait ,lets face it, go over the roster, JVR is the most logical choice to be moved. Maybe we package JVR and our first rounder for a high first rounder and a second rounder to draft a stud dman who can step right in, this draft is loaded with dmen, its just a matter of being in position to pick the right guy. If that is not possible, then we try and deal JVR for a good young dman. I dont see any other way to get the defense we need without sacrificing a guy like JVR. If we make these moves, instead of blowing it all on Suter then we may be able to go after Parise ,since we will have more cap $$

[doom88]

If and when they are healthy, I think it's as solid a group as any.

[RonJeremy]

Yes , problem is they are never healthy. We cant go into next season with Timonen considered our #1 dman, the guy is old, beat up. coming off back surgery. Imagine if he were out for an extended period. We have a group of solid 3-6 guys but no real #1 and 2. Timonen has to take on a reduced role, with his age, back, and all the wear and tear, or he will be useless for the playofss next year. We have had problems on defense for the past 3 years, with injuries and having such a bad 3rd pair that every time they were on the ice they couldnt clear the puck. Remember Parent and Krajeck, they were horrendous, so we traded for Mez to improve things, then Pronger went down, now we got Grossman, and Timmo is down. This year we had Lilja and Gus, who were also overwhelmed as our third pair.

We need to go into this offseason with the mindset that Pronger and Timmo have to be replaced, even if Timmo comes back to start the season, who knows if his back holds up, and he is really wearing down from all the big minutes and he has one year left on his contract. Carle may get a big offer and leave, so we really need to improve the defense big time. Im never that confident when 2 of your top dmen are coming off back surgery, you never know what long term effects and lingering problems they may have.

Since Bryz is horrible and will not steal us any wins, we need to have a strong defense to keep the quality shots to a minimum. I really think we need to get 2 more dmen, and not some stiff like Kubina , we really need a couple of good top 3 guys, I know superstar dmen are tough to come by, so I hope we can move up in the draft and get a good young dman, this is the best draft for dmen that I have ever seen. Not sure if there are any Denis Potvins, or Prongers in there, but theres around 7 or 8 dmen in the top 20 prospects.

[Dynamo 47]

I think the defense when healthy is sound. That being said the defense definitely needs some upgrades.

My first thought was Suter but the more I think about it the less likely it appears as he will likely sign with the Wings for about $7 million or more.

With him gone there aren't many top pair guys available in free agency so I think a trade is in order to acquire defensive help.

Here is what I see happening:

* Pronger goes on LTIR or Retires

* Kubina and Carle both walk

* Lilja - waived or sent down if possible

That leaves us with Kimo, Grossman, Coburn, Mezaros with either Bourdon or Gus

I figure we need to fill two spots and here is what I would like to see:

Trade JVR for a top 4 defenseman - My top target might be Brent Seabrook of Chicago. He is a top pair guy who can provide points (34 last season), is solid defensively (+21) and can play physical. His salary is $7 million but actually goes down to a much friendlier $5 million in 2013. He will take up a ton of minutes but would likely require more then JVR to acquire

Option 2 - Cam Barker

The former 3rd overall pick has struggled at times but is capable of playing top pair minutes. He is another big body who can lay the body and be steady on the defensive end.

Option 3 - Bryan Allen

Finally I would also try to sign Matt Carkner to be the 7th defenseman and play some 4th line forward. Unlike Shelley, he is one of the most feared enforcers in the league and should prevent some of the crap that happened in Pittsburgh from happening again (or at least represent the Flyers well if it does)

[Polaris922]

Pronger hasn't been any good in years so you've lost nothing there. Timmonen wasn't anything to be happy with this past year, and honestly was unimpressive the past two or three. Mezaros is overrated. I think Coburn and Grossman are solid d-men and you have Carle for your PP time. I know his defense isn't great but he can shoot. I dunno the two youngers well but I'd say you need at least one solid defenseman signing.

[Bertmega]

@Polaris922

Dude, let me start by saying I am sorry to always pick apart your posts, and I don't mean to come off as a d***, but your name wouldn't happen to be Kuato would it? With these ridiculous statements about the Flyers I am thinking you do not even watch Flyers hockey.

Let me break this down a little for you:

1) Pronger is one of the sole reasons that the team sniffed a shot at the cup in 2010. He is probably done now, so the team will have to figure that out.

2) Timonen had an outstanding year in 2012 (41 points and a +8, well above the league average) at 37 he still has gas in the tank and is an excellent defenseman and team player

3) Meszaros had a bad year due to injuries, but not too bad to amount 25 points and a +6 in 62 games. Let alone mostly as a 2nd/ 3rd pairing.

4) Matt Carle, your assessment of him made me make piss in my pants. First off, his shot blows; however, his skating ability and ability to move the puck effectively out of the D zone is what he does well. In addition, he can contribute on offense. But, at no point would somebody who watches this guy play say that Matt Carle is known for his shot.

Please don't start saying long snappers = faceoff specialists

Not for nothing, but maybe you should understand the dynamics of the team before spouting off such off base statements.

[mojo1917]

@Bertmega

i find myself responding to his posts also, he's a Pens guy, knows his team, does not really know ours too well.

he's a guy that thinks steve sullivan, arron asham, kris kunitz and pascal dupis are talented players... and while they are effective in blysma's system they're not dazzling anyone with their skills. so it makes perfect sense that he wouldn't see the value of kimo timmonen or know much about andrej metzaros beyond his stats.

I ran into a similar situation talking about jordan staal's play, i watch the pens when they're on and nothing else is, (in the taint of pennsyltucky we get the Root sports network), which is pretty infrequently, i don't know that team the way i know ours, but i know a little....but when i entered that conversation i was out of my depth very quickly, cause i don't have a vested interest in them to really pay attention.

[doom88]

Kunitz is a pretty good player.

[canoli]

This topic exists because Bryzgalov sucks. Even worse, apparently he's the only one who doesn't know it. He supplies the usual clichès in his interviews about how he needs to "work harder" and "dedicate myself" etc. but they read like disclaimers... so he can get to his main focus: how other people let him down. The fans, the media, his teammates...

Morris and Aucoin were right, Ed and Homer were wrong. We're basically fkd for the next __?__ years...

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922

Dude, let me start by saying I am sorry to always pick apart your posts, and I don't mean to come off as a d***, but your name wouldn't happen to be Kuato would it? With these ridiculous statements about the Flyers I am thinking you do not even watch Flyers hockey.

Let me break this down a little for you:

1) Pronger is one of the sole reasons that the team sniffed a shot at the cup in 2010. He is probably done now, so the team will have to figure that out.

2) Timonen had an outstanding year in 2012 (41 points and a +8, well above the league average) at 37 he still has gas in the tank and is an excellent defenseman and team player

3) Meszaros had a bad year due to injuries, but not too bad to amount 25 points and a +6 in 62 games. Let alone mostly as a 2nd/ 3rd pairing.

4) Matt Carle, your assessment of him made me make piss in my pants. First off, his shot blows; however, his skating ability and ability to move the puck effectively out of the D zone is what he does well. In addition, he can contribute on offense. But, at no point would somebody who watches this guy play say that Matt Carle is known for his shot.

Please don't start saying long snappers = faceoff specialists

Not for nothing, but maybe you should understand the dynamics of the team before spouting off such off base statements.

I've actually watched Pronger most of his career and liked the guy when he was younger. I disagree with your assessment that he's why you had a shot at the cup, though I am sure his leadership was valuable, his best playing time was behind him. Timonen I've watched for some time in his games against my boys. I once thought very highly of him, and even had him on my fantasy team, but again he's past his prime by two years in my opinion. His stats reflect more on the offensive capabilities your team now possesses, and less on his individual play. Lilja had a higher plus/minus than Timonen with 8 minutes less ice time per game, and you guys generally RAIL Lilja. Not to mention most of Timonen's points came as assists, and how many of those were primary I wonder? Granted Meszaros was hurt, but I didn't think much of him before he was a Flyer either, so it holds no prejudice that I don't think much of him now. He still got 3 more goals than Timonen in 14 fewer games. Plus 6 in 62 games isn't top notch. I guess part of my point about your defense is ... Timonen's points left him 16th in the league on defense. BUT... if you break it down to defensive play, the highest defenseman you had is Gustaffson at +12... ranking 35th in the league. And Coburn at + 10 ranking 44th. I think Coburn is your best defenseman myself, but I value defense over point production on the blue line. Timonen by comparison was 57th.

I know your frustrations with Carle defensively, but he is a creative young player who in the limited capacity I have seen has good movement and as you said can handle the puck. You're right in that I haven't seen a lot of his gaffe's that so many here knock him for, but honestly, when your boys play mine, he is the ONLY defenseman you have that worries me when he's carrying the puck into our end. And I am not alone in that thinking. He's not a slap shot guy, I know, but he's good at getting in close with the puck, and that's where most defensemen become dangerous. Maybe he steps up his play against the Pens, but right now, with your stable, he's the only guy you have that is a scoring threat on your D. He had 132 shots on goal leading all of your defensemen. (Timonen close second at 130).

These are my opinions of your players, much as you fellas give me your opinions on ours. if you think it's meant to insult you, then you need to thicken your skin. I'm simply trying to provide you with a perspective that's not wearing orange and black lenses. I've honestly posted about players you have that I like and think a lot of, and players I don't think a lot of. I'm not slamming your organization for it, it's just the facts of every team. Good, bad, & ugly on the roster.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Polaris922

[Polaris922]

@Bertmega

i find myself responding to his posts also, he's a Pens guy, knows his team, does not really know ours too well.

he's a guy that thinks steve sullivan, arron asham, kris kunitz and pascal dupis are talented players... and while they are effective in blysma's system they're not dazzling anyone with their skills. so it makes perfect sense that he wouldn't see the value of kimo timmonen or know much about andrej metzaros beyond his stats.

I ran into a similar situation talking about jordan staal's play, i watch the pens when they're on and nothing else is, (in the taint of pennsyltucky we get the Root sports network), which is pretty infrequently, i don't know that team the way i know ours, but i know a little....but when i entered that conversation i was out of my depth very quickly, cause i don't have a vested interest in them to really pay attention.

As I said above, I'm simply trying to share a perspective of your team that I know several friends of mine and I share. These friends follow other teams, but won't come to these forums because of the heavy Flyers following here. I'm trying to change that, but they have the places they already like.

As for your comments about what I think, I think Steve Sullivan is past his prime, but is a veteran player who still shows a little sneakiness on the ice. He was 17/31/48 this year, which would make him 7th on your squad, and left him 6th on mine. I like having him on the team, but I never claimed he is an all-star player. I don't like Aaron Asham at all. I just don't think he's a dirty player. Kris Kunitz is a talented player. He would have been 3rd in scoring on your team, and not with a lot of PP time. Only 6 points behind Hartnell, and that was playing on a line without a high quality center most of the year. To say he's not a talented player is foolish. He's a small guy who goes into the slot and takes a beating to earn what points he gets, and is also a capable shooter with good hands. Dupuis is no scorer, but he is very valuable in that he can do everything WELL... not great, but WELL. He scores some (25/34/59 which again would be 3rd on your team) while playing 3rd line minutes a lot, penalty killing, and often times just playing utility man for Bylsma. Is he an all-star? No, but I never claimed he was. I claimed he was valuable.

I know you guys like Timmonen and Meszaros, I just have a different opinion of both. Timmonen was a great defenseman at one time in my eyes, again I just think those years are behind him. And I didn't like Meszaros with the LIghtning or Senators either. He had a great plus 30 year for you guys last year, I get it. But he's only had two really good years as a defenseman, and one solid year in orange and black doesn't convince me he's somehow an above average defenseman.

[Bertmega]

@Polaris922

We'll agree to disagree. Your opinion is thought out and I can see your side, I just think you may be undervaluing certain players and their attributes to the organization.

In any case, it isn't a matter of me needing thicker skin, or tinted glasses, or whatever the cliche of the day is as I am not offended by your assessment of the Flyer's Defense. I am just pointing out flaws regarding your assessment of the players, mainly Carle and Timonen. Anyhow, you kind of lost all my attention when you tried using Lilja as leverage in your argument against Timonen.

Timonen is aging, as he is 37, but he is still serviceable and an intelligent player; something the Flyer's defense is sorely lacking (hence Chris Pronger). I think the Flyers need to get a true number one guy to play with Coburn and let Timonen play a reduced role where he will be just as effective in my opinion.

[mojo1917]

Kris Kunitz is a talented player. He would have been 3rd in scoring on your team, and not with a lot of PP time. Only 6 points behind Hartnell, and that was playing on a line without a high quality center most of the year. To say he's not a talented player is foolish. He's a small guy who goes into the slot and takes a beating to earn what points he gets, and is also a capable shooter with good hands.

I know you guys like Timmonen and Meszaros, I just have a different opinion of both. Timmonen was a great defenseman at one time in my eyes, again I just think those years are behind him. And I didn't like Meszaros with the LIghtning or Senators either. He had a great plus 30 year for you guys last year, I get it. But he's only had two really good years as a defenseman, and one solid year in orange and black doesn't convince me he's somehow an above average defenseman.

didn't kunitz play on malkin's line ? he's a good center.

just trying to give a high level of where you're coming from, which is a penguins fan's perspective. look i'll give on kunitz he's good; plays with an edge , pots the goals on the open net when the line dangler dekes everyone, i don't like him though. would i like him if he was on my team ? probably, but i'm not clamoring for that either.

i also a remember a conversation you were having with terp about roster talent where you were poo-poohing guys like schenn couturier and voracek's skills because they were young and, well i don't remember what else i stopped reading... but those guys are all top 10 picks who look to be panning out positively and not "Kaning". Other GMs with their heads out of their butts, i include ray shero in this group, would jump quickly at a chance to bring those guys to their team.

when you mention lilja having a higher plus minus with less ice time than timmonen well, he better, he's seeing under 10 minutes a night when he's not a healthy scratch, timmonen was forced into top pairing minutes against 1st line guys,which was not the plan for him. lilja's role is to give the other guys a breather and not f up. i'll allow that the work load wears on timmonen but to imply that lilja is a better player is provocative at best and fool hardy on the other end. if we can get 44's minutes right during the year, he'll be effective because he's a good player. the last couple of years our blue line has been too beat up by the tournament for that to happen. our team definitely needs another good player back there, no question.

i appreciate your participation it definitely adds value to the community, occasionally though your opinions regarding the flyers are difficult to reconcile because they are incorrect. lillja >timmonen = wrong. our young high picks < your journeymen = wrong. i've been wrong, called on it and owned it, that happens when you have opinions.

[Polaris922]

Timonen is a very smart player. And I was in no way inferring Lilja to be better, just using him to contrast where Timonen's defensive play has suffered as he's aged. Sorry I didn't clarify that I suppose.

As for the Schenn, Coutourier, Voracek comment made awhile ago, it was in deference to proven players vs. developing players. I like how Schenn plays hard, I like Voracek's skill, and I can see promise in Coutourier. I'm not as sold on them as you are as fans, but that may just be because I didn't see much of them. Ten or twelve games doesn't give me enough info to accurately judge them, so I hold off on saying I'd rather have any of them over Dupuis or Kunitz. I know their value to my team I suppose as you know the value of yours.

[Polaris922]

Oh and Kunitz didn't see a lot of time with Malkin. Neal was the only regular there. Seemed like Bylsma rotated people through depending on what he felt best worked at the time.

[mojo1917]

Oh and Kunitz didn't see a lot of time with Malkin. Neal was the only regular there. Seemed like Bylsma rotated people through depending on what he felt best worked at the time.

that's why i made that a question, i know i saw him there vs our team and vs the Rangers on an NBC game. i guess i saw the games where your 14 had the hot hand.

[TedZep]

For some reason, your status on this forum takes on a whole different meaning than that of the other posters. I just can't put my finger on why....

[RonJeremy]

I hope people take my posts seriously and don't disregard me just because I have a big stick

[TedZep]

I just watched Boogie Nights again last night. Some of the dialogue is hilarious!