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Moving Van at Pronger's House?


Guest idahophilly
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Here is the article from the Broad Street Bull...

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/Pronger-still-hopes-to-return.html

Who thinks this could be true that he might retire? The fact that Holmgren denies it makes it more believable. And IF he retires does that mean we can't put him on LTIR meaning we are stuck with the 4.9 million hit EVERY year?

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Realistically his family could live in St. Louis. He then shows up for some medical testing at the start of the season. When he is found unable to play, he can be placed on LTIR. and live happily in St. Louis.

I think what the move really means is he is done playing hockey.

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but does retiring change the LTIR issue...? It's one thing to try and play and not be cleared so the Flyers can place him on LTIR. But if he retires he isn't trying to play hence you can't put a "retired" player on LTIR??? Cap hit would stay then?

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@idahophilly If he officially files his paperwork with the NHL then yes, we are cap-wise stuck paying the rest of his salary. I don't see why Chris would actually do this though... other than to put to rest the annoyance of the "will he/won't he" questioning. Considering the fact that he LOVES to **** with the media, I can't see this being the case.

Why would he retire when it would cost him a boatload of money AND put the screws to an organization that has treated him well.

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@idahophilly If he officially files his paperwork with the NHL then yes, we are cap-wise stuck paying the rest of his salary. I don't see why Chris would actually do this though... other than to put to rest the annoyance of the "will he/won't he" questioning. Considering the fact that he LOVES to **** with the media, I can't see this being the case.

Why would he retire when it would cost him a boatload of money AND put the screws to an organization that has treated him well.

That is my thought to. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would screw the organization like that. Probably just moving to St Louis and will return for the tests and get the LTIR...

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@idahophilly

This is the best expanation I've read on Pronger.

Tuesday, February 21, 2012

TThe NHL CBA & Chris Pronger's Contract: One For The Ages

Chris Pronger, the 37 year old defenceman for the Philadelphia Flyers, is suffering from post-concussion syndrome and his condition is not improving according to his wife Lauren.
This according to csnphilly.com
.

“I think this is very, very frightening for Chris. He’s been able to battle through so much and come out of it, but this is different for him. This is really tough on Chris. He wants to be out here more than anyone. This is his life, this is his passion. And this is tough… Unfortunately, I can’t report any major improvement. I certainly wish I could. It’s very disheartening.”

“I see a lot of differences in Chris,” she said. “Just hoping to have a couple good days in a row and see him back to his normal self again. I know he wants this, too. It’s very frightening to him, too.”

Lauren goes on to say that her husband’s personality has changed as a result of his illness (which is not uncommon):

“He is not himself and it’s not in a good way. I just want him to get better. He still has a long life to live, three kids and a wife and everything. Right now, we’re just hoping for his health to come back. That is our priority.”

Pronger's Contract & Why 34 Is The New 35

At this point, the prognosis appears to be grim and Pronger's career may be over. Of course, the hope is that he recovers and can resume a normal healthy life.

But what about his contract? In 2010, Pronger signed a 7 year deal worth $34,450,000 with the Flyers. The cap it on the deal is $4,921,429 (remember the cap hit is the average yearly value of a contract and not what a player makes in a specific season).

The NHL CBA provides that a player's contract does not count against the salary cap if that player retires. However, there is an exception found at Article 50.2©(iv) of the NHL CBA: when a player aged 35 or older signs a multi-year contract, his cap hit will continue to count every year of the contract, even if the player retires before the contract is up.

When Pronger signed the contract in September 2009, he was 34 years old. He turned 35 the next month on October 14. However, when he signed the contract, he was 34 years old. So if Pronger retired, whatever would be left on his contract would not count against the cap - right?

Wrong.

That same Article 50.2 says that a player's age when he signed the contract isn't his age when he put pen to paper. Rather, it's his age "as of June 30 prior to the League Year" in which his new contract takes effect.

While Pronger signed his contract when he was 34 years old, he turned 35 in October - which is well before the June 30 date. So that means that Pronger was deemed to be 35 when his contract kicked in.

Consequently, as per Article 50.2, if Pronger retires his salary will still count as against the cap because he was 35 when he signed the contract.

Did The Flyers Know Pronger Was Really 35 years Old
?

The next question is whether the Flyers knew Pronger would be considered 35 years old for the purpose of the CBA.

I can't say for sure. However, the surrounding circumstances suggest it is possible that the Flyers missed something.

Pronger makes most of his money in the first 5 years of his contract, taking home $33,400.00 of his $34,450,000. In the last 2 years of his deal, however, he makes just $525,000 per season. Pronger would be 40 and 41 years old in those last two seasons.

This strongly suggests that the Flyers and Pronger did not expect the defenceman to play out the last two years of his deal, when he would have been in his 40s. His salary is so low that it suggests that the final 2 years of the deal were included strictly to artificially lower the yearly cap hit. By adding in those 2 years, the cap hit dropped from $6.68 million to $4.9 million.

(On the basis,
the arbitrator in the Kovalchuk circumvention case fingered Pronger's contract
as constituting a circumvention of the cap,
which I warned could happen
).

So if the Flyers didn't expect Pronger to play into his 40s, then it is reasonable to conclude that the team expected him to retire. If that's the case, and assuming no team wants to be saddled with a $4.9 cap hit for 2 years for someone who is playing shuffleboard with Betty White and Gavin MacLeod, then the assumption seems to be that the Flyers may have thought Pronger's salary would not count against the cap since he was 34 years old when he signed the contract.

If the Flyers knew that Proger would be considered 35 years old under the CBA, then his contract would have likely been structured differently.

Any Relief For The Flyers
?

The Flyers have placed Pronger on long-term injured reserve (LTIR). By doing so, the team gets some cap relief.

This is explained in Article 50.10(d) of the CBA, which provides that a team may receive cap relief if a player has a "bona-fide long-term injury" that causes the player to miss at least 10 games or 24 days. The test is whether the player is "unfit to play", which according to the CBA includes things like being "injured, ill or disabled and unable to perform his duties as a hockey player".

If a player is placed on LTIR, his cap hit still counts against the team's payroll (50.10(d)(ii). However, the injured player can be replaced with a healthy player even if the replacement player's salary takes the team over the cap. The replacement salary, however, can't exceed the salary of the injured player (50(d)(iii). That's why I call the healthy player a replacement player. It can also be multiple players replacing one player.

The NHL can also challenge whether a player is really unfit to play.

In this case, the big question is whether the Flyers can keep Pronger on the LTIR until his contract is up in 2017?

There is nothing in the CBA preventing the Flyers from placing Pronger on the LTIR until 2017. So long as the team can show that Pronger is "unfit to play", he can sit on the LTIR, which effectively means, his salary won't count against the cap.

So for the Flyers it would make about $5 million dollars more sense to have Pronger sit on the LTIR then retire.

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I wonder if they can waive or unconditionally waive Pronger - assuming he waived his NMC for cap antics. Maybe loan him to a team a la Huet or Nylander to get out of the cap hit. I'll have to check the CBA again when I get the chance.

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I wonder if they can waive or unconditionally waive Pronger - assuming he waived his NMC for cap antics. Maybe loan him to a team a la Huet or Nylander to get out of the cap hit. I'll have to check the CBA again when I get the chance.

Interesting idea... I would think though, that there would be something against it in the CBA. If not and the Flyers tried it (with Prongers permission) I could see the NHL screaming bloody murder and Bettman wetting himself...

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I wonder if they can waive or unconditionally waive Pronger - assuming he waived his NMC for cap antics. Maybe loan him to a team a la Huet or Nylander to get out of the cap hit. I'll have to check the CBA again when I get the chance.

I would think that if Pronger isn't able to pass a physical he can't be claimed by another team. ie. remember what happened with Blair Betts.

However it is probably the way they get out of Bryz's contract at some point.

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probably the way they get out of Bryz's contract at some point.

and may that "point" come soon...

re: Pronger, it's all well and good to LTIR him for the next 5 years, which gives us cap relief - sort of. It does, but the relief doesn't begin until the season begins, so effectively you spend each summer saddled with his cap hit.

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I wonder if they can waive or unconditionally waive Pronger - assuming he waived his NMC for cap antics. Maybe loan him to a team a la Huet or Nylander to get out of the cap hit. I'll have to check the CBA again when I get the chance.

that's the problem with the 35+ contract, the cap hit stays with the flyers no matter where he goes. unless, of course, another team claims him during the waiver period.

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that's the problem with the 35+ contract, the cap hit stays with the flyers no matter where he goes. unless, of course, another team claims him during the waiver period.

It's also a problem that the contract is due to pay $18.2M over the next three years ($6M salary vs. $4.9M cap hit) which doesn't give much incentive aside from the last two years at $525K.

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I think, players can be LTIRed only in certain point of off-season and before that the team can't exceed the salary cap with the players under contract. So if Pronger is kept in LTIR, then his salary will count against the next season's salary cap before he can be LTIRed. It makes the handling of the salary cap more difficult and the Flyers need to have 5M$ worth of other players' salaries ending after each season Pronger contract is valid.

See Leino's situation last year. The Flyers were right against the salary cap with new contracts kicking in this seasonm and Laperriere's salary counting against the cap, so they couldn't sign Leino before making room for him.

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To me this basically means the NHL salary cap sucks. Before Bettman hockey, a player retired the team usually settled for an amount and since he was no longer part of the team, the team could sign a replacement. Done. The player was taken care of and the team was able to replace an asset. Now with this stupid ass cap, you have to find loopholes and managing the damn cap is as much a part of managing the team.

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I wonder if they can waive or unconditionally waive Pronger - assuming he waived his NMC for cap antics. Maybe loan him to a team a la Huet or Nylander to get out of the cap hit. I'll have to check the CBA again when I get the chance.

I don't think you do that to a future hall of famer. The LTIR is the only solution to this and if he is deemed fit to play, let him play. Anything along the lines of what you are suggesting is an utter insult to a guy who has had a career like Pronger.

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It does, but the relief doesn't begin until the season begins, so effectively you spend each summer saddled with his cap hit.

Is this really true? Because I thought you could be 10% over the cap (currrently 7M) until before the season begins and then you need to be compliant once the season begins. So, that 10% overage essentially covers Prongers salary (and then some), no?

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To me this basically means the NHL salary cap sucks. Before Bettman hockey, a player retired the team usually settled for an amount and since he was no longer part of the team, the team could sign a replacement. Done. The player was taken care of and the team was able to replace an asset. Now with this stupid ass cap, you have to find loopholes and managing the damn cap is as much a part of managing the team.

You don't "have to find loopholes."

It's finding a loophole that made the Pronger situation.

Not making rash decisions like signing guys to huge contrats with NMC/NTCs and others to long-term deals that you then deal away to sign a long term deal with a goalie who needs a strong defense in front of him when your longterm loophole deal with a franchise defenseman blows up in yor face.

It's the Flyers' insistence on being too cool for school and playing fast and loose that has caused more trouble than it has created "success" (depending on your definition).

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I don't think you do that to a future hall of famer. The LTIR is the only solution to this and if he is deemed fit to play, let him play. Anything along the lines of what you are suggesting is an utter insult to a guy who has had a career like Pronger.

Not *to* Pronger, *with* Pronger. He would have to be in agreement obviously.

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Not *to* Pronger, *with* Pronger. He would have to be in agreement obviously.

The cap hit is lower than actual salary except for the last two seasons. Flyers, IMO, will need to eat a lot more salary before anyone starts to think about a waiver wire act.

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Is this really true? Because I thought you could be 10% over the cap (currrently 7M) until before the season begins and then you need to be compliant once the season begins. So, that 10% overage essentially covers Prongers salary (and then some), no?

yes there is that 10% overage allowed - but I'm too lazy to look it up and figure out how it applies. Hopefully it's as simple as you put it - ie, the Flyers are allowed to be 10% over the current cap and therefore Pronger's salary isn't effectively hampering them at all. [edit: as far as signing a FA in the summer anyway...]

Edited by canoli
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yes there is that 10% overage allowed - but I'm too lazy to look it up and figure out how it applies. Hopefully it's as simple as you put it - ie, the Flyers are allowed to be 10% over the current cap and therefore Pronger's salary isn't effectively hampering them at all. [edit: as far as signing a FA in the summer anyway...]

Flyers have to include all one-way contracts (Walker, etc.) and a prorated base of all two way players based on number of games played in the NHL as part of the offseason cap.

They can probably budget in most of Pronger's contract (although Homer was still hedging about whether or not Pronger may or may not come back as recently as this week) but not "all" of it.

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Flyers have to include all one-way contracts (Walker, etc.) and a prorated base of all two way players based on number of games played in the NHL as part of the offseason cap.

Interesting as I did not know that. Though it does not seem that detrimental. I scanned both Roster / Non-Roster players and Walker was the only one I could see that that provision would apply to.

With the current cap going to 70m, the Flyers have 9m in cap space (NOT including Prongers 5m if he is LTIR's next year). The essential signings are Voracek and a high end RW to either re-sign Jagr or suitably replace in the forward world and Prongers replacement (should he LTIR) and Carle signing / replacement.

Viable UFA candidates forwards:

1) Shane Doan- Hard for me to fathom him leaving Phoenix, but even at age 35, he has everything we would want in a player for short term RW line 1 / 2. The question will be he is 35 and what kind of contract is he going to want. He was paid 4.5m each year of his last contract.

2) PA Parenteau- Late bloomer. Has skills and grit. I would be shocked to see NYI let him go, but I think you could get him for 2.7m-3m.

3) Mikael Samuelsson- A bit long on the tooth (35), but still serviceable and could be have for around 2.5

4) Jagr- Hampered by injuries and ran out of gas in the last 1/4 of the season. But still, if he wants a go and will give a home team discound (say 2.5-2.8), I give it a go, unless Doan want to be become a Flyer, than all bets are off.

Viable UFA candidates defencemen:

1) Dennis Wideman- To me he is Carle v 2.0 lite. 4.5 million is his cost.

2) Barret Jackman- I have always liked him. Tough, stay at home. Yet, not that fleet of foot and was exploited in the playoffs. Paired with a Coburn type, could be effective.

3) Bryce Salvador- Long on the tooth, but arguably NJ best dman in the regular and post season. Durable. Current contract salary 2.9.

4) Ryan Suter- I guess if you want to replace Carle, this would be it and an upgrade. I am just not sure its worth the 6 +m he is going to command.

Anyway, thats my attempt to hijack a thread. :-)

Edited by Vanflyer
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