What should have been here

[aziz]

Very true, and often forgotten. LA played very sound positional defense, which yieled few quality chances against and limited rebound opportunities.

not forgotten, but there's this need for people to blend the cup winning team into a better-than-everyone-else whole, and it isn't always the case. you take a bunch of roughly equal teams, but give one of them a head-and-shoulders-better-than-everyone-else goalie, and his team will come out on top. yes, everyone contributed, but the thing that made that one team better, the thing that made them stand out, the thing that made them cup winners was the goalie. move the goalie to a different team and you have a different cup winner.

the TEAM won the cup, and deserve the respect that brings with it, i get that. just saying, it isn't always all aspects of the TEAM's game that put them over the top. sometimes, it's one thing in particular. and if it is going to be one thing in particular, it usually going to be the goalie. tim thomas went out and got cup rings for all his teammates two seasons ago. quick didn't have to put the kings on his back in quite the same way this season, but this wasn't a detroit-like stanley cup win where the team itself was overall superior. the offense was good, the defense was good, the energy was good, the coaching was good, the goalie was out of his freaking mind.

[doom88]

Hey now, I know you were a goalie and all, but no need to get too defensive here. I merely brought up an underdiscussed point, without slighting Quick in any way. The dude was ridiculously ridiculously.

Flip him and Bryz, and the teams swap fates, guaranteed.

[aziz]

@doom88

sorry, didn't mean to be defensive. just rambling, really.

[Bertmega]

http://forums.philly.com/discussions/Flyers_Forum/_/Demand_action_/kr-flyers/64812.1?nav=messages

This is a great thread. Some people that are Carter worshipers now, wanted him gone for Vokoun just two years ago.

Some will hate the Flyers just to say, "See I told you so".

It's a tired argument. Richards and Carter won a cup, as will the Flyers. The core is 10x better now than it was 2-3 years ago.

[Podein25]

ridiculously ridiculously.

I second that sentiment

[AndyS]

Hey now, I know you were a goalie and all, but no need to get too defensive here. I merely brought up an underdiscussed point, without slighting Quick in any way. The dude was ridiculously ridiculously.

Flip him and Bryz, and the teams swap fates, guaranteed.

Not so sure.

Not taking anything away from Quick, but LA's defense in front of him was superb.

The Flyers defense was NOTHING like that. Not even close.

[Polaris922]

I think that says a lot about those two Flyers. And Briere and Giroux played, what, less than half the games that Carter did? If they had made it through two more series, played the same number of games as the Kings, they'd have blown everyone away.

Only if every series was against the Penguins holy goaltending! Lol

[aziz]

Not taking anything away from Quick, but LA's defense in front of him was superb.

you saw a different team, then. i saw quick making saves against opposing forwards left all alone right in front of him on a regular and ongoing basis. LA defense certainly wasn't bad by any measure, but a "superb" defense doesn't need their goalie to do this:

with quick cleaning up messes as a matter of course, LA didn't pay for their breakdowns, and thus on some level they are forgotten. but the breakdowns were certainly there.

[AndyS]

you saw a different team, then. i saw quick making saves against opposing forwards left all alone right in front of him on a regular and ongoing basis. LA defense certainly wasn't bad by any measure, but a "superb" defense doesn't need their goalie to do this:

with quick cleaning up messes as a matter of course, LA didn't pay for their breakdowns, and thus on some level they are forgotten. but the breakdowns were certainly there.

C'mon. I watched the Kings closely in all 4 rounds - their defense (including the forwards) were outstanding.

Every team gives up chances, even the Kings. Every team needs their goalie to bail them out.

But the Kings did that far less often than most (especially the Flyers).

How many highlight reel saves do you recall from Quick in the Finals? Not very many, because they weren't needed. Marty Brodeur made FAR more of those kind of saves in the Finals (because he had to do so).

Quick was outstanding, The only run by a goalie that I can remember being even close to this in recent memory was Giguere back in 2003 against the Devils. But don't try to tell me that the defense in front of him didn't play a huge part in them winning that Cup. (And, frankly, Terry Murray deserves a lot of the credit for that.)

Edited June 15, 2012 by AndyS

[aziz]

But the Kings did that far less often than most (especially the Flyers).

how did the flyers enter this discussion?

so long as you bring them in, i'd say the primary difference was that each time the flyers had a breakdown, the puck went in the net. LA's were quickly (see what i did there?) cleaned up and just as quickly forgotten. the difference in impression left by a breakdown that leads to a goal versus a breakdown that doesn't is such that i think it tough to compare totals without sitting there with a clip board for all 31 games involved.

How many highlight reel saves do you recall from Quick in the Finals? Not very many, because they weren't needed.

no, they weren't, because new jersey was drastically outmatched. they'd squeaked by florida, philly beat itself, NYR played a wrong headed exclusively-defense game, and LA was a real team that could cohesively threaten in all areas. against st louis and vancouver, though, quick stood on his head. and had to. as lopsided as the series outcomes were, the majority of those LA wins were by one goal (including those that were 2-goal wins by virtue of empty net goals). with plenty of examples of st louis and vancouver forwards getting very alone with the puck in front of quick, his margin for error was essentially zero. the only thing saving that defense from a first or second round exit is that one guy making the difference.

again, LA's d was good. "supurb" puts me in the frame of the old new jersey or detroit or dallas cup teams, who would have stood a good chance of winning cups with just about anyone in net. including chris osgood. you put chris osgood on that LA roster, and they'd have been done in mid april.

[Spinorama]

maybe Brodeur and Elias will finally retire...that would count as a silver lining for me.

haha, yes! that's would absolutely be a bonus. they have been a thorn in the Flyers sides for all too long

[jammer2]

Like other have correctly stated, the Kings won because of Quick. The last time I saw a goalie *that* fast, that positionallly sound....well, I'd have to say Tony Esposito. What really set Quick apart was uncanny ability to anticipate the play, and the God given skill to get to the spot he had to. Plus, seems like he never loses sight of the puck, always knows where that little disc is it seems. Hard to blame the Flyers because the Kings have the best goalie in the world. I don't blame Homer (who made sound hockey deals IMHO), I praise Hextall and Lombardi for knowing how close they were and knowing it was the right time to pull the trigger on secondary scoring. Amazing, simply amazing job of talent analysis and knowing/improving weak points. GM of the year FOR SURE.

Edited June 15, 2012 by jammer2

[doom88]

@jammer2

Unfortunately, he wasn't even nominated. It's Armstrong, Poile, and Tallon.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=629435

This kind of further proves, you don't really know until the season is over.

[jammer2]

I've seen this before.....simply outrageous to nominate the GM's of the year before the Stanley Cup Playoffs even start. Who the hell cares who played better in the regular season....they should get this right. Might be a tad unfair to GM's who are not in the playoffs, but you could still measure regular season growth/trades/drafting and have playoff success as just one of the catagories.

[sarsippius]

Right, wouldn't an integral piece of judging GM of the year be based on trade deadline wheeling and dealing, which is obviously geared toward enhancing a team's post season performance?

[Polaris922]

Even if they'd done it at the end of the regular season these guys would never have been mentioned backing into the playoffs. They had a damn good roster on paper at the start of the year. They just found the right time to start performing as a team it seems.

[Vanflyer]

The "wuss" on the left was finally healthy for a playoff run and ended up tied for 1st in playoff goal scoring.

Really?? With 7 other players including Giroux and Briere. Not to mention that of his 8 goals, 3 came in one game. I am not a Carter hater, but lets not suck his nob. He was meaningless in 2/3 of the playoffs.

[doom88]

Really?? With 7 other players including Giroux and Briere. Not to mention that of his 8 goals, 3 came in one game. I am not a Carter hater, but lets not suck his nob. He was meaningless in 2/3 of the playoffs.

But relevant when it mattered.

[Vanflyer]

But relevant when it mattered.

That is certainly very subjective. The Kings were all over the Devils on that power play. Carter was completely unchecked and standing beside the net. Nice tip, but not as if he made some miraculous effort to make the play. On the second goal in that game, he was COMPLETELY unmarked coming off the bench and glided right in to his normal top inner circle spot and let go his wrister. When on net, that will score allot.

He scored and it had relevance on the game. He played well as a second fiddle. That is my point. When he has to be the top fiddle against the opposition top checking line, He does not execute.

I did look at some additional number that will muddy the water:

1) Jeff scored in 7 of the 16 wins by LA. So, if you take the 5 goals in two of the wins, that still leaves 8 points in 14 of the others wins (3g and 5a).

2) Jeff was a -3 out of the 4 losses.

But to come full circle, we can not disect with numbers. Afterall, Jagr had 8 points in the 11 games for the Flyers. Was he relevant, sure, but not that much.

Was Carter relevant, sure, but not that much?

[doom88]

He had three game winning goals in the post season, two of which were in the Stanley Cup Finals (G2, G6 for the Cup). I'd say very relevant when it mattered. You only need four wins.

It wasn't that long ago he was shanking that shot or firing it high and wide...

[aziz]

He had three game winning goals in the post season, two of which were in the Stanley Cup Finals (G2, G6 for the Cup). I'd say very relevant when it mattered. You only need four wins.

i'm not really taking a side, but...goal number 3 in a 5-2 win (made it 3-0 at the time), and goal number 2 in a 6-1 win (made it 2-0)....they are technically game winners, but they aren't really what you'd call clutch, you know? in contrast, the OT game winner....

[doom88]

i'm not really taking a side, but...goal number 3 in a 5-2 win (made it 3-0 at the time), and goal number 2 in a 6-1 win (made it 2-0)....they are technically game winners, but they aren't really what you'd call clutch, you know? in contrast, the OT game winner....

They could just as easily be crushing, momentum-swinging goals (that some teams fold up afterwards). Being Philly fans, we've NEVER seen those before.

[aziz]

@doom88

i mean, sure...but so could the 4th goal. and the 5th. those two don't get glory only because the other team only managed to get up to one under carter's. just saying, at 3-0, the goal that actually ends up the game winner is no different than the rest until the final buzzer sounds. you don't look at a guy who scores to make it 3-0 and say, "wow, you can always count on him to get that key goal."

there are game winners, and there are game winners. now, carter always had a knack in philly of leading the team in game winners. just saying, two of the three examples this postseason really weren't the most critical of the game winning breed.

[BearOnIce]

I really don't think that argument applies this time. The difference here is, they got younger by trading Carter and Richards. Obviously there is still some tweaking to be done, but the window should be open for the core of the team for a pretty long while.

Not without a defense that is sorely not there and the picks of the defensemen available little few and far between and the Flyers don't know how to develop defensemen from within. Thatnk god they finally started getting European players finally. No cup til Clarke gone and Snider stuffed and put in the WFC main lobby...

[Vanflyer]

He had three game winning goals in the post season, two of which were in the Stanley Cup Finals (G2, G6 for the Cup). I'd say very relevant when it mattered. You only need four wins.

It wasn't that long ago he was shanking that shot or firing it high and wide...

He still shanks that and fires it wide. He executed- like he should. My ONLY point is that he is a supporting player, not a lead player. He did EXCELLENT in his role as a supporting player. Every team needs those, because it is what makes them dangerous. Subtract Kopitar and Browns play, and Carter / Richards were again on Sunset blvd drinking whatever in May.