A draft loaded with defense and we pick 2 off the bord no names

[Mad Dog]

@Mad Dog coburn, meszaros, grossmann, gustafsson and timonen is a competitive group. missing one body, hopefully that's carle.

That missing body can be Bourdon, if Carle is not resigned that is.

I hear what you are saying, but I don't know man... Of all the areas where the Flyers looked bad against the Devils, their defense looked just outright embarrassing. Many seem to be willing to chalk that up to fatigue, but I think they just lack one ancoring, steady, preferably two-way d-man with a good shot on net, who will log ridiculous ice time... And from what I am hearing the Flyers themsleves are determined to land that type of a player, which is why the asking price is so high........

[idahophilly]

Noodle just touched on it, but is it possible that the solution is to do nothing... Just change and/or re-focus on a d first style of play... ? I'm just thinking maybe we are not as bad off as we think if we have reasonable health next year. No matter WHAT we do, we are not going to replace Pronger (and Weber is NOT coming to Philly so forget that)... Just thinking outside the box... Besides, we still have enough money to go after a FA so maybe we DON'T trade away a piece and get a servicable RW or D-man on the market.

[DaGreatGazoo]

If you don't need another center then you can trade them for an asset you do need.... It's not rocket science...

So you would trade Schenn or Cooter at this point? Just asking because that's what it will take to land an impact defenseman that can play top 4 mins in October.

This kid alone is NOT going to bring that..and even if they trade Schenn or Cooter, it doesn't sound like Laughton would be ready for the NHL next year anyway.

Just don't like the pick...but I'm done complaining about it. I hope the kid is everything Richards was his 1st few years in Philly..

[idahophilly]

And drafting a center does nothing to improve them at center in October or a year from October either!!! We have 5 centers NOW, AND for the next several years...meanwhile, their are no Dmen in the pipeline that are considered bluechips. It's exactly this type of drafting that forces the Flyers to go find Dmen EVERY SINGLE SEASON. Walker, Llija, Kubina, GrossmanN, etc...because we don't have any quality blueline depth in the farm system.

And, has everone forgotten about Nick Cousins...he's still around..and oh yea, he plays..CENTER!!!

My anger isn't towards the kid..he sounds like he could be a solid player, but the 20th pick to fill a position that is over stocked is just bad judgement, IMO. No one will convince me otherwise. If we move him/another young center for something we need...say...a DEFENSEMAN...then I will change my opinion.

Come on DGG, think this through! We need d-men I agree. But you take the BEST player available and THEN you can use them as part of a package to get the d-man you need (even though I would not trade anyway)...

[idahophilly]

So you would trade Schenn or Cooter at this point? Just asking because that's what it will take to land an impact defenseman that can play top 4 mins in October.

This kid alone is NOT going to bring that..and even if they trade Schenn or Cooter, it doesn't sound like Laughton would be ready for the NHL next year anyway.

Just don't like the pick...but I'm done complaining about it. I hope the kid is everything Richards was his 1st few years in Philly..

Not what I was saying... But a JVR/Laughton/late round pick might just get you that excellent d-man (not Suter/Weber).

[Mad Dog]

I'm just thinking maybe we are not as bad off as we think if we have reasonable health next year.

Yes, we *are* bad defensively. Even in the first round our defense was plain pathetic. The only reason we beat the Pens was because *their* defense and goalie were even worse. But against the team who cycled like crazy and pressured and explored what they felt was a soft area on the Flyers' team, our defense simply collapsed like a cardboard box. I just don't get how people can't see that. Were we watching different teams?

I will tell you that the Flyers themselves realize and feel very strongly they need to upgrade their defense. The only reason why they didn't pull the trigger YET is because just about every team they talked to is asking for Schenn and they really like Schenn and don't want to trade him. Not taht I can blame them.... They believe his upside is way too high to sacrifice him at this point.

[RonJeremy]

@Madog I'm not all that confident going into a season where two of your top dman are coming off back surgery. Timmo is on his last legs and can't be counted on for big minutes. We have no legit big minute #1 or2 dman. If Timmo has any lingering problems or gets hurt , our defense is then severely weakened and then we end up overpaying for a dman. We are loaded up front, we need a top guy for sure.

[RonJeremy]

I totally agree with Idaho our defense is bad

[idahophilly]

Yes, we *are* bad defensively. Even in the first round our defense was plain pathetic. The only reason we beat the Pens was because *their* defense and goalie were even worse. But against the team who cycled like crazy and pressured and explored what they felt was a soft area on the Flyers' team, our defense simply collapsed like a cardboard box. I just don't get how people can't see that. Were we watching different teams?

I will tell you that the Flyers themselves realize and feel very strongly they need to upgrade their defense. The only reason why they didn't pull the trigger YET is because just about every team they talked to is asking for Schenn and they really like Schenn and don't want to trade him. Not taht I can blame them.... They believe his upside is way too high to sacrifice him at this point.

Perhaps,

So then what do you do? Give Schenn up and PROBABLY JVR up for one overpriced d-man? We may agree or disagree but I'm willing to wait on FA... Lets see what we can do. Trades are still allowed after that so no harm no foul as I see it...

[DaGreatGazoo]

But you take the BEST player available and THEN you can use them as part of a package to get the d-man

As a very extreme example, ask the Detroit Lions how drafting the best player available worked for them..they drafted 3 WR's at number 1...3 years in a row!!! Shortly after that, they fired their GM.

I get the concept...I just don't think it's that easy to throw him into a trade, with an under achieving JVR, to get anything of substance right now.

[aziz]

Of all the areas where the Flyers looked bad against the Devils, their defense looked just outright embarrassing. Many seem to be willing to chalk that up to fatigue, but I think they just lack one ancoring, steady, preferably two-way d-man with a good shot on net, who will log ridiculous ice time...

mmm. two things. one, i think that part of that was the forwards' participation in the defense. if you have 2 wingers not covering their guy, then you have a center and 2 dmen trying to cover 5 skaters. they are going to look bad. the other team will have an easy time with zone posession, and will be able to move the puck at will. breakouts will be overwhelmed if the wingers aren't getting themselves open, backchecks will be hedging between uncovered attackers, etc. i don't know how much of the flyers' defensive shortcomings came from the defensive personell versus coming from a system that left defensive coverage more freeform that it needed to be.

two, and i'm beating that horse again, is bryzgalov. when a goal is scored, we all study the replay looking to find out why. in slow motion we see coverage slip and point a finger at that dman. the problem is that bryzgalov made us see those replays over and over and over again. 3.46 times per game, on 11 percent of shots. you have a goalie who makes some saves, you don't study that replay and you don't see the momentary slip. we didn't look super close at LA's coverage, because quick rarely gave us the chance.

the best example was that game 5. imo, the flyers played the devils to an absolute stalemate. neither team could gain offensive traction, both team's defenses shut down offensive creation. purely by the strength of play of the 18 skaters on each side, that should have been 0-0 at the end of regulation. enter the goalies. marty gave up one crap unearned goal, bryzgalov gave up 3. devils win. we carefully examined flyers' dcoverage 3 times, the debbies once. we walk away thinking the devils outplayed the flyers, but the reality is that bryzgalov sucked worse than broduer, and that was the difference.

i don't know that that changes, no matter what is done to the dcorps. bring in sutter, somehow get chara and yandle and girardi, it doesn't matter. when pucks go in, some defensive coverage problem will be noticed. if pucks go in a lot, it gives the impression the coverage is particularly bad...when really, the goalie isn't coming close to doing his job.

[DaGreatGazoo]

We may agree or disagree but I'm willing to wait on FA

Agree...and I've been wrong a few times before... I'll have no problem admitting if I was wrong about this pick/kid!!

[RonJeremy]

Yandle or Webber are the only guys you would give up Schenn and JVR for. We would also have to throwing more for Webber, other than that your other option is JVR for Luke Schenn and a pick. Other options are landing a FA but the competition will be togh

[Mad Dog]

Perhaps,

So then what do you do? Give Schenn up and PROBABLY JVR up for one overpriced d-man? We may agree or disagree but I'm willing to wait on FA... Lets see what we can do. Trades are still allowed after that so no harm no foul as I see it...

Depends on who we are talking. If it's Shea Weber, who right now is the best defenseman in the world, I would trade Schenn, but not both Schenn and JVR. Anybody after Weber, I agree... not worth giving up Schenn. The Flyers may be stuck as they just don't have enough chips to trade. If they improve defense so much, that will be at teh expense of weakening yur other areas, in which case Homer may have no option than to just roll the dice and, like I said, go with someone who is a decent, while unspectacular, and see how the team plays the first several months.

One thing I am convinced of: if we have *any* chance of seeing Bryzgalov playing even a semi-decent net, the team needs to upgrade defense.

[idahophilly]

I will partially agree.

Our defencive problems come from:

1 Bryz not earning his paycheck but not nearly as bad as made out to be...

2 Injuries... It was ridiculous. Every game had different lineups and the foward corps could never get in gear with each other or the D or Bryz.

3 Wrong style of play for the team. This one is on Lavy... I know he wants to use all our fire power up front but you gotta play some D too...

[terp]

Guarantee you Coots or Schenn are being traded and that's why we took a center

As I wrote elsewhere, this doesn't make any sense to me at all. Why would they pick for a position to compensate for moving a center off their active roster? These players are years from being NHL ready, if they ever make it at all, and do nothing to compensate for trading away NHL players.

They picked who they thought was the best player on the board. Meanwhile, look at all the defenseman they chose today. It was a draft that was defenseman heavy and apparently they thought guys available later were pretty good prospects too, so good that they didn't need to use a pick on Maata.

[Mad Dog]

i don't know that that changes, no matter what is done to the dcorps. bring in sutter, somehow get chara and yandle and girardi, it doesn't matter. when pucks go in, some defensive coverage problem will be noticed. if pucks go in a lot, it gives the impression the coverage is particularly bad...when really, the goalie isn't coming close to doing his job.

That's where I disagree. See my post to Idaho. I think exactly *because* Bryzgalov sucks so badly... that reason alone should be enough of a motive to bring in that steady, big-bodied, nasty, mean SOB to play against who will protect the crease like his own child.

[RonJeremy]

No one remembers how much of an impact trading for a top dman had for the Flyers in the past. When we got Desjardins he was the anchor for years and totally improved our team and when we got Prongs, our team was much better.So one top dman is a huge help and sometimes you have to pay for that.

[aziz]

that reason alone should be enough of a motive to bring in that steady, big-bodied, nasty, mean SOB to play against who will protect the crease like his own child.

ok, true, i agree there. and that would go a distance to hiding one of bryzgalov's faults, for 25 minutes per game. the problem is, there are 35 other minutes in the game, and bryzgalov is as likely to allow wrist shots from 45 feet as he is to misplay pucks in the crease. that guy would help, but won't solve.

[OH1FlyersFan]

Guarantee you Coots or Schenn are being traded and that's why we took a center

Trading Coots would be a disaster of Titanic proportions. Trading Schenn would be a disaster of just Hindenburg proportions.

[RonJeremy]

Sticking with our defense would be 9/11 and Pearl Harbor combined. Maybe we sign Parise and then trade Schenn and JVR and land Yandle, I hate to give up good young forwards but we need defense. Maybe we sign some defense,UFA but I still wouldn't doubt JVR and Schenn for Ryan and the rights to that college dman.

[jammer2]

The Flyers defense looks great on paper, promlem is, it's not translating to the ice.

Some huge prolems :

1)Losing one on one puck battles down low. This happens far to easily, Henriuqe and Parise were pick pocketing our d all series long, and turning most into legit scoring chances. Not acceptable....not now, not ever.

2)Stunning lack of on ice awareness....just a basic, knowing/identifing who your man is an sticking with him....the defensive zone coverage is a head scratcher.

3)Flyers team concept of scoring first....we have firepower, but don't have the defensive play required to win with this philosophy. It supposed to be a bend but don't break kinda thing where our team will score a few more than the other based on scoring prowess.....problem is, this roster is not so great at the "don't break" part of the equation.

4)Bryz...the deflating goals pile up and sucks the life out of the defense. If you've seen him give up an easy goal in every game for the last 5, you have a TON of pressure, because you know, one little mistake by me...and WHAM...it's in the net. This also causes a lot of unnecessary penalties, because the d men think if they let a guy get a clean shot on net...it's in....so pull him down and take the chance away...in other words, not much faith in the tender doing his job.

Edited June 23, 2012 by jammer2

[hf101]

1)Losing one on one puck battles down low. This happens far to easily, Henriuqe and Parise were pick pocketing our d all series long, and turning most into legit scoring chances. Not acceptable....not now, not ever.

Possibly due to a herniated disk in Timmo's back.....Mezsaros playing first games after back surgery.....Grossmann coming off a concussion and knee injury........for starters.

[jammer2]

Yes, in all fairness the injuries have to be factored in. But, really.....excuses. It's Homer job to provide adequate depth, so injuries can be overcome. Lack of depth on defense is the main thing responible for the Conference Final loss to the Lightning years back....this org should know better. It does seem like Mezaros might have rushed coming back. Don't blame him for wanting to play in the playoffs, but he did not seem himself. When this team was at it's best, Grossman was healthy and things were rolling. Grossman not being 100% hurt us more than anything else.

Edited June 23, 2012 by jammer2

[hf101]

It's Homer job to provide adequate depth, so injuries can be overcome.

Agree, but under the cap there really is only so much Holmgren can do. I didn't include that Bourdon was also out as well as Kubina, but Holmgren had 9 capable d-men planned after the trade deadline. The Kings didn't need 9-dmen nor the Devils....had either of those teams needed to use their 8th and 9th d-men...............well I doubt they did they would have made it too the Finals.