Shane Doan, anyone?

[jammer2]

@radoran Latest I heard was Doan was frustrated with the whole contract talks....or lack of it. Apparently, the Yotes ownership is in such a crisis mode, his agent actually has no one to negotiate with.

[Polaris922]

Agree on the "why would he move?" thinking. He IS the Coyotes.. and I don't think stability matters so much. Honestly.. if the team sells he has to move. If he signs somewhere else he has to move. What's the difference? Maybe having a choice? At his point in his career, I'd imagine it means something to him to win the Cup with the team he started all this with. And they did get close to a Cup appearance.

[Vanflyer]

Article from Meltzer...but here is a name no one is talking about...and he plays Right Wing. He made 4.5 last year, so $$ could be an issue.

http://arizonasports...yotes-situation

I think Meltzer has been reading this Forum. I mentioned Doan 3 weeks ago. My response is "in a heart beat". 3 years at his current pay rate.

[Vanflyer]

@davies & @jammer2 posted while i was writing... i totally agree on the length of contract issue, at 36 a 4 year deal is too long, 2 with an option is how i'd approach it.

Actually, could do four years. I mean everyone is talking about 4 players for Ryan at 5.1m and he is a UFA after three years. What is the difference if you get Doan at 1m less a year, and save all your assets? I like Ryan, but I love Doan. Hartnell-G-Doan would be a monster line. Then I go with Schenn-Couturier-Voracek as my second line. How are opposing teams going to be even remotely able to deal with those skills and more importantly tenacity???

[Vanflyer]

.hope all is well with you young lady!! 4 years?!?! That's a deal killer for me!!

Why??

[Vanflyer]

he has to tone down the 4 year demand. No true contender will commit 4 years to a guy who might have 1 year left, esp when it counts on the cap for the full 4 years.

Hey Jammer- I am on the opposite end of your view. You say a guy that "might have 1 year left"? What gives you that thought? The guy has been playing 20 minutes a night and 95% of his games his entire carreer. I can see you saying that for some players, but Doan is not the guy you say that about. In fact, in the final game against LA, he logged 29 minutes of ice time. What part of any of that inclines you to suggest he is 1 year away from retirement?? If he is willing to take a 500k pay cut, I pay him the 4.1 for four years- in a heart beat. He is a tremendous leader, a non-stop worker in a player and EVERYTHING you want the kids on the team to see and learn from. We all lauded how stunned we were at Jagrs attributes that he brought this year- Doan is that factored by 4.

[Vanflyer]

Doan's a UFA, so there's no real "dealing" with Phoenix for him.

Other than trying to get a couple of our 2nd round picks back!!

[Vanflyer]

@Flyercanuck

You beat me to it- damnit!

Edited June 27, 2012 by Vanflyer

[Vanflyer]

Four years and likely a stone cold NMC that even Homer can't get out of.

If you are going to do that kind of contract, Doan is the guy you do it for. 4.1, for four years with NMC is fine.

[radoran]

Other than trying to get a couple of our 2nd round picks back!!

They don't have the tagging room to fit Carle under the cap at the moment. If Doan is getting Carle-type money ($4.5M) they don't have the room to sign him, either.

Which is probably a Good Thing if you like second rond draft picks :-)

[radoran]

@radoran Latest I heard was Doan was frustrated with the whole contract talks....or lack of it. Apparently, the Yotes ownership is in such a crisis mode, his agent actually has no one to negotiate with.

I fully believe that Doan will go out and "test the market".

I also believe he will take whatever offers back to Phoenix before signing them. If no one in Phoenix can answer the phone, he'll go elsewhere.

[Vanflyer]

but only for the right price and 3 years or maybe 4 with the last year being a very low cap bit.

Not the way it work mate. Cap is a proration of the contract. The last years cap hit is the same as the first years. How the cash is actually paid (salary) is completely different. For example, Breezy is a cap hit of 5.66M for the length of his contract (9 years). However, nearly 50% of the contract value (51M) of salary will have been paid by the conclusion of his third year.

Where that becomes relevant is teams that are cash constricted but cap rish (meaning that they have cap room, but not cash to spend).

With doan / Flyers it is a non issue. The Flyers are one of the richest teams in the league and can afford to bite the bullet on "write-off salary". Cap is another issue entirely, though this may be (depending on the summer) the first year that they are not up against the cap wall.

[Vanflyer]

They don't have the tagging room to fit Carle under the cap at the moment. If Doan is getting Carle-type money ($4.5M) they don't have the room to sign him, either.

The 2nd round pick thing was a joke (which I saw FC beat me too)

Not to be dimwitted (okay- I am), but what is a "tagging room"? If its a room with 4 girls and two guys, I am game (just don't tell my wife).

On the cash/ cap front, why do you say we don't have the money?

We currently have 11.4m.

Doan 4.1 / 4 years

Carle 4.5 / 4 years

Voracek 3.1 / 3 years

We are over by 300k based on the above assumed cap hits. That does not include prongers LTIR credit of 5m- which gives us room to sign the RFA's (Bourdon particularly) and a back-up goalie. My understanding is we can not use Prongers cap until the season starts, but we are allowed to be 10% over the cap (7m) prior to the season starting. Its a wash as long as we do not exceed Prongers cap hit.

Of course all of this is under the current CBA which will have been expired before the season.

[radoran]

The 2nd round pick thing was a joke (which I saw FC beat me too)

Not to be dimwitted (okay- I am), but what is a "tagging room"? If its a room with 4 girls and two guys, I am game (just don't tell my wife).

On the cash/ cap front, why do you say we don't have the money?

We currently have 11.4m.

Doan 4.1 / 4 years

Carle 4.5 / 4 years

Voracek 3.1 / 3 years

We are over by 300k based on the above assumed cap hits. That does not include prongers LTIR credit of 5m- which gives us room to sign the RFA's (Bourdon particularly) and a back-up goalie. My understanding is we can not use Prongers cap until the season starts, but we are allowed to be 10% over the cap (7m) prior to the season starting. Its a wash as long as we do not exceed Prongers cap hit.

Of course all of this is under the current CBA which will have been expired before the season.

I went over this with Gazoo in the shoutbox yesterday and in long form in the "Cap space" thread..

http://www.hockeyfor...sing-something/

*And* they have to deal with the *current* CBA before they have the "new" one...

In order to sign your own UFA to an extension, you have to have enough room under the *current* cap *or* enough expiring contracts to make up the difference.

Rightnow, they also have to include all the RFA tags that they have given out to retain rights.so they have around $4.4M in "space available" rightnow.

I think you can presume Carle will be "around" that number as would Doan.

The Flyers have "room" under next year's cap of $70.3M, which is not in effect until July 1.

They have 10% additional in the off-season - $77.3M cap.

BUT they have to count Walker, Pronger, all signed two-way players prorated based on # of NHL games played, all RFA tags to retain rights and new RFA contracts at full (regardless of two-way status).

Here's my breakdown from the other thread:

$70.3M cap

$7M off-season exemption

$77.3M off-season cap

$11.4M cap space (capgeek) + 7M off-season exemption: $18.4M off-season cap space.

-$3.6M pro-rated two-ways plus Walker = $14.8M off-season cap space.

-$4.5M "Carle" = $10.3M off-season cap space

-$3M "Voracek" = $7.3M off-season cap space

-$900K "vet backup" = $6.2M off-season cap space

-$3.5M RFAs (Sestito/Bourdon/Gus/Z/etc. - this is a rough total of the tenders which needed to be filed to keep their rights) = $2.7M off-season cap space

-------------------------

Additional possibilities; $2.7M in bonuses counted pending new CBA

Waivers ($2.8M): Shelley (WAIVE SHELLEY NOW^TM) - $1.1; Walker = $1.7M

Total potential off-season cap space: $8.2M

So they really *don't* have enough space to freely do a whole bunch - they *can* free up some additional space (*if* waivers are allowed off-season) and there is the "bonus question"

It *does" get better during the season:

Part Two: The Sequel

$70.3M in-season cap

Forwards - 9 ($26.3M): Briere, Giroux, Couturier, Talbot, Hartnell, Schenn, Simmonds, Read, "Voracek" ($3M)

Defense - 7 ($27.2M): Timonen, Coburn, Meszaros, Grossmann, Lilja, Schenn, "Carle" ($4.5M)

Goalie - 2 ($6.6M): Bryzgalov, "Veteran Backup" ($900K)

LTIR - $4.9M (Pronger)

$10.2 "available space" for three forwards including Pronger's LTIR. Note I have also conveniently waived Shelley (WAIVE SHELLEY NOW^TM) so it's "really" $9.1M - as Seravalli notes.

BUT, the Flyers CANNOT SPEND all of that in the off-season because of the two-ways, bonuses, RFAs and needing to count Walker and Pronger at full and remain under the off-season cap.

This is where having a $1.7M AHL guy and a $4.9M LTIR guy eats up the off-season exemption which seems to have been made to allow for space to sign RFAs.

[activestick]

Article from Meltzer...but here is a name no one is talking about...and he plays Right Wing. He made 4.5 last year, so $$ could be an issue.

http://arizonasports...yotes-situation

I think Doan is the guy the Flyers are targeting. Parise will cost too much and Ryan and Nash will cost too much in players going the other way.

Doan plays with a ferocious style. I'd take him in a heartbeat. And I would defenitely take him over Jagr if given the choice.

[jammer2]

@Vanflyer With regards to Doan and a 4 year deal....just my gut says anyone inking him a 4 year deal will get burned for at least 2 of them. Just to many miles on those legs. I can see him retiring and it still counting against the cap. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE his game, but 4 years is to big a risk. If he was under 35 I'd do it in a heartbeat.

[Lindbergh31]

@Vanflyer With regards to Doan and a 4 year deal....just my gut says anyone inking him a 4 year deal will get burned for at least 2 of them. Just to many miles on those legs. I can see him retiring and it still counting against the cap. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE his game, but 4 years is to big a risk. If he was under 35 I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Split in between and give him a 3 year deal. I'd love to see Doan especially since Jagr looks like he's going to test the market. Having a veteran like Jagr last year helped out the younger players so signing Doan would be a no brainer. He's a good leader, works hard and is a right-handed shooting winger who will stick up for his teammates. I guess this is going to be an interesting free agency in a couple of days.

[Vanflyer]

@radoran

Great work. I am very tired and hungover from the @DaGreatGazoo pigeon delivery.

Are you telling me that a NHL team has to have to allot cap space for all two-way contracts during the summer months? Is that what everything boils down to?

[canoli]

good topic - thanks to whoever brought it up and found the link...(sorry can't rem who the OP is)

Like everyone I'd love to see Doan with the Flyers. We don't really have anyone like him. No knock on Giroux or Hartnell but Doan is one tough mother; for a big guy he plays even BIGGER; he'd bring out the best in Giroux and Hartnell, the younger guys too. He's a class act who'd fit perfectly into Jagr's spot.

But Phoenix would be crazy to let him get away. I know he's UFA but I have to believe the 'Yotes will find the $$ and give him what he wants to stay.

Plus, for the Flyers...we'd be getting him on the tail end of his career, and how much is that worth to us, especially if he wants 4 years? Or even 3? As much as the Flyers could use a Doan or a Lucic type, we probably don't want to invest in a 35-year old at this point.

[orange_crush]

Article from Meltzer...but here is a name no one is talking about...and he plays Right Wing. He made 4.5 last year, so $$ could be an issue.

http://arizonasports...yotes-situation

I would rather Doan than Jagr..

[AndyS]

Agree on the "why would he move?" thinking. He IS the Coyotes.. and I don't think stability matters so much. Honestly.. if the team sells he has to move. If he signs somewhere else he has to move. What's the difference? Maybe having a choice? At his point in his career, I'd imagine it means something to him to win the Cup with the team he started all this with. And they did get close to a Cup appearance.

Doan LOVES PHX. He does not want to leave.

I will be shocked if he signs elsewhere.

[radoran]

@radoran

Great work. I am very tired and hungover from the @DaGreatGazoo pigeon delivery.

Are you telling me that a NHL team has to have to allot cap space for all two-way contracts during the summer months? Is that what everything boils down to?

For two-way contracts, players that have played in the NHL last season count against the cap at a prorated level based on their NHL salary. Capgeek has an Archive section that gives an idea of the numbers.

Then, when you file to keep the rights of RFAs, that number is also applied to the off-season cap number. I *believe* those tags to keep the rights are also applied in the scenario to sign "your own" UFAs as described.

When you *sign* yor RFAs, their entire NHL contract is counted against the off-season cap number - so if, for example, MAB gets an increase over his RFA tag that addition takes money off the off-season cap.

When you reach the end of training camp, you relegate players to the AHL and cut contracts to get under the in-season cap.

Because of this - and Pronger/Walker and the CBA/bonus question - they have less off-season cap room than it appears when you look at the in-season cap.

They likely still have enough to sign both Carle and a Doan, but just barely and that would pretty much cap them out for off-season moves.

To be clear - this is an amalgamation of discussions with aziz/noodl, Gazoo and others.

[jammer2]

@radoran Based on recent CBA results, is it fair to say a new CBA allows for cap relief for unattainable bonuses?

[radoran]

@radoran Based on recent CBA results, is it fair to say a new CBA allows for cap relief for unattainable bonuses?

It is fair to say that a new CBA would put bonuses off until next season as has been done every year up until this and unrealized bonuses never come into play.

The CBA expires on September 15.

The UFA period starts on July 1 - using the rules of the current CBA.

There's $2.7M hung up in bonuses of some sort or another. They can't use any of it - as far as I have heard - until the issue is resolved...

[jammer2]

Ahhh thought so rad. Thanks for being so on top of this....I *thought* I had a firm grashp on it all...but some parts are tough to sink in I guess.....ha ha.