doom88 Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Gretzky isn't entirely "Gretsky" without Messier and Kurri.Nash has never played in the NHL with players he has on an international level, where he has been productive. I believe he can be far more productive on the wing of a serious center instead of the giant bowl of crap and Crater that he's been served.Columbus has no real reason or incentive to deal him. None. He's under contract. He's the captain and face of the team. If he deliberately sucks he hurts no one but himself. He could destroy the entire franchise if he wanted to.You want Rick Nash then?Quite frankly, I don't want Rick Nash now. Not because he's not a great player, but because - like Thomas Vanek - he's not worth the money he was offered.Whoah there, Rick Nash is way better than Vanek, and much more deserving of his contract.Now I wouldn't pay what Columbus wants, but he's a very good player stuck in a very bad organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Whoah there, Rick Nash is way better than Vanek, and much more deserving of his contract.Now I wouldn't pay what Columbus wants, but he's a very good player stuck in a very bad organization.I think both players got the contracts they did because the franchises they play for needed to "make a statement" more than "accurate market value."I think Nash > Vanek, but those are the terms I look at it.And, still:Nash: 547 in 674 (.811 PPG)Vanek: 447 in 547 (.817 PPG)I guess it depends on your definition of "way better". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doom88 Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Vanek plays with NHL caliber players. Nash? Not nearly as much. The ppg is impressive in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Vanek plays with NHL caliber players. Nash? Not nearly as much. The ppg is impressive in my opinion.I've already said in This Very Thread that Nash has never played with the caliber of player he has at the international level.So Buffalo is THAT much better than Columbus?? What great setup man has Vanek been playing with? Buffalo's been stumbling around looking for a center for Vanek for his entire contract.Nash has played regularly with top draft picks who are from actual real-life Junior teams. Maybe they should try an American from the NCAA? :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 I've already said in This Very Thread that Nash has never played with the caliber of player he has at the international level.So Buffalo is THAT much better than Columbus?? What great setup man has Vanek been playing with? Buffalo's been stumbling around looking for a center for Vanek for his entire contract.Nash has played regularly with top draft picks who are from actual real-life Junior teams. Maybe they should try an American from the NCAA? :-)I think in fairness to Vanek, plenty of his goals came when playing with Derek Roy. This year was an exception as Roy has struggled coming back from the injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doom88 Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Roy is a better center than most of what Columbus has lined up in years. Can't commit 100% because frankly, I can't name one center in Columbus history beyond Carter and that one awesome defensive PK guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 I think in fairness to Vanek, plenty of his goals came when playing with Derek Roy. This year was an exception as Roy has struggled coming back from the injury.Roy is a better center than most of what Columbus has lined up in years. Can't commit 100% because frankly, I can't name one center in Columbus history beyond Carter and that one awesome defensive PK guy.Wow, you're going with Derek Roy?Have you *watched* any Sabres games? 'Cause I have.There's a reason he's in Dallas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Wow, you're going with Derek Roy?Have you *watched* any Sabres games? 'Cause I have.There's a reason he's in Dallas.He is by no means your ideal setup, playmaking center. But before he got his season cut short due to the injury a year ago, the previous 3 years he had 49, 42, and 43 assists, repsectively. Not wow-type numbers, but still respectable. He and Vanek had decent chemistry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 He is by no means your ideal setup, playmaking center. But before he got his season cut short due to the injury a year ago, the previous 3 years he had 49, 42, and 43 assists, repsectively. Not wow-type numbers, but still respectable. He and Vanek had decent chemistry.No, really, I've watched a LOT of Sabres games. Roy is nothing special at all.For example, he's slotted into the second line in Dallas behind Jamie Benn... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Vanek plays with NHL caliber players. Nash? Not nearly as much. The ppg is impressive in my opinion.I struggle with @radoran points as well (which are valid). Perhaps it is not fair, but when I watch Nash on team Canada, he is a stud. Austria does not have the quality players that Canada does at the international level. They don't even qualify for the tourney's. It would be interesting to see Vanek on team Canada though.In all seriousness, Vanek and Nash's situations are very similar. I will take the 6'3 230lb RW over the 6'1 200 lb LW though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 All reports indicate the Jackets are looking for 2 NHL players + picks and prospects for Nash. Mind you, I believe they will have to tone down those demands, but not by much.Ok, Matt Walker, Ilja and the picks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 A few of Nash's years were spent with Brassard. Never a full season mind you, but the Jackets were always trying to prove they never made a mistake with Derek, so he played quite a few games with Nash in a desperate attempt to up his point totals and justify his high draft slot. It was always like trying to put a round peg in a square hole, he just didn't have the skill set to keep up with Nash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 @jammer2Do you think Columbus will ever draft a russian again?? <snickers>If memory serves they screwed the pooch, not once, but twice in drafting russians with a high pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 @jammer2Do you think Columbus will ever draft a russian again?? <snickers>If memory serves they screwed the pooch, not once, but twice in drafting russians with a high pick.It'a amazing how inept they've beenRotislav Kleska, DPascal Leclaire, GRick Nash, LNikolai Zherdev, RAlexandre Picard, L (played all of 67 games)Gilbert Brule, CDerek Brassard, CJakub Voracek, RNikita Filatov, LJohn Moore, DRyan Johansen, Cno 2011Ryan Murray, DOf 12 #1 picks with an average spot of 6.67 they found ONE guy who is a definite stud and maybe two(?) more that had a real impact (Kleska, Voracek). They've clearly been desperate for a center for Nash and they dealt the pick that became Couturier for... well-known setup guy, selfless passer and playmaker Jeff Crater.Filatov and Zherdev are your Russians.Seriously, one might have to TRY to pick that badly to do worse. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 @radoranHard to believe, isn't it?? Their GM should have been fired for the Carter trade alone.Coburn- 8thGiroux- 22ndB. Schenn- 5thCouturier- 8thL. Schenn- 5thVoraceck- 7thHartnell- 6thBriere- 24thPronger- 2ndWhile the Flyers did not draft most of those guys, they are certainly adept of acquiring quality first rounds. I mean as it stands now, nearly half the team consists of first rounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Here are the Flyers' picks over the same periodJustin WilliamsJeff WoywitkaJoni PitkanenJeff Crater and Mike RichardsNo 2004 pickSteve DownieClaude GirouxJVRLuca SbisaNo 2009, 2010 picksSean CouturierScott LaughtonAverage pick: 17.6I believe all of those guys, except Laughton, played in the NHL last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 @radoran The hilarious part is, the Jackets pick bum after bum, *but* at least stick to the principal of building through the draft. Then, the genius Howsen (feeling heat for losing no doubt), decides something like "hey, what have these draft picks done for us?, we need legit talent right now!". Problem being, worst possible year to deviate from the keep your pick and build through the draft theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Maybe it's time for a new scouting program?? Sheesh that's like the land of misfit toys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryanc Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 The thing with Nash is that the bar has kind of already been established with the Richards / Carter trade. That said (and to your point), I think as a trading GM, you have to establish how much MORE value does nash have above a "carter". The other part of the equation is the cap / salary hit. Nash is the 5th highest paid player in the NHL and while never having the supporting linemates in Columbus that he needs, he has never put up the value in production to support that salary. I don't think a Read + #1 + a conditional #2 gets it done. I do think think a "Read" and a number 1 and two number 2 picks would get it done. Columbus has to realize that no team is going to gut its roster to get Nash. I would do that deal as stated.Good point on the trade level being established by Richards/Carter. Carter might have had a long contract @ 11 years for $58 mil, but at $5.27 mil a season, that looks below his market value. On the flip side, Nash has better overall skills and a shorter contract length, but at a MUCH higher cap hit. To me these points wash.So Carter got traded for Voracek, a #1, and a #3 pick. Richards, traded for Simmonds, Schenn, and a #2. Both trades seem very similar as far as the give/get level.Applied to Nash, I think your Read + #1 PLUS TWO #2's would be a good deal for both teams. And you're right, no one is going to gut their roster to get Nash right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Maybe it's time for a new scouting program?? Sheesh that's like the land of misfit toys.I hear Jake Voracek wants to be a Dentist. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I hear Jake Voracek wants to be a Dentist. As long as its in Philly he might do ok! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 i'm giving this thread a bump, because, evidently the best player not named crosby malkin or giroux thinks philly is okay enough to spend 14 years here. so I guess i have my answer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 @mojo1917 I came here to say just that mojo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillygrump Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 They've clearly been desperate for a center for Nash and they dealt the pick that became Couturier for... well-known setup guy, selfless passer and playmaker Jeff Crater.To be fair, no one really thought Couturier would fall to 8th. Well, at least Columbus reasonably didn't think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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