Flyers- bottom line..weaker defense, weaker goaltending, weaker offense

[doom88]

Ah, Flyers & Pens fans trading jabs about whose team has more d*ckheads on it....in July..... ya gotta love it

Annnnnd I'm saving that one for a little bit. Priceless!

[doom88]

Agree on Subban and Avery and Domi though I think only Avery fits the "look at me" mold you mentioned. If you want to rank players feel free. Doesn't change my opinion on Briere. He's not just "careless" with his stick. Not even close. More often than not he knows full well what he's doing. Without knowing how many sticking minors each player has been called for your argument that he's called for more is iffy at best...

Briere: 686 PIM in 813 career games...

Crosby: 401 PIM in 413 career games...

Neal: 268 PIM in in 314 career games....

So - let's try this again. The Crosby/Briere "size" non-issue became an issue when someone tried to justify Briere's "punk" acts by basically saying "well he small so he has to play that way or else he'll get killed out there...". The exact quote...

Regarding Briere, it must be tough to be a little guy playing a big man's game. He doesn't get too many calls despite his oscar worthy acting chops, i think he works his stick to keep from being made into a stain on the half-wall. he's a thoughtful guy . whom i'll bet discovered early on in his NHL career that he was going to have to reinterpret the rules if he was going to remain in the league.

I brought up Crosby who A) is not ** that ** much bigger than Briere yet for some reason (jersey color maybe?) it's OK when Briere does something but not Crosby. Of course, someone turns that into Briere is not as big as he is listed yadda yadda yadda. Fine then. I presented Exibit B. Martin St. Louis. Smaller than Briere. The furthest thing from a "punk" in the NHL.

Bottom line...Briere's size (or lack thereof) is not an excuse for being a punk. And yes - he is a punk. Using the same rationale seen here before (James Neal, Crosby, et al) it's impossible to say Neal/Crosby are and Briere is not. Neal has been suspended twice and fined once. Briere has been suspended 3 times and fined once. What has Crosby (generally considered a punk here) been killed for? Stick in the nuts. Kinda like Briere did to OV. Crosby jumped McLean off a face off. Not quite as bad as what Briere did to Nielsen off the faceoff. I know...Briere never punched a guy from behind like Crosby. Of course, Crosby never took a swing at a guy from the bench either.

Um, Briere has more than double the games that Neal has...comparing suspensions actually hurts your arguments. Especially when he should have been tagged with two one-game suspensions this spring, but Shanaban believed some ridiculous blatant lie to avoid another hit to the head suspension.

Comparing anyone to the golden goose isn't really beneficial, but I won't get into that. I'm not trying to drag this thread through the mud.

[Polaris922]

@B21

@Vanflyer

@jammer2

Thanks gang. I know my views aren't always even keel but I do try. I love the sport though and like posting here with all of you guys. For B21 and I it's a chance to hear what other demographs think of our boys. And I suppose a way to follow what our rivals are up to

[mojo1917]

@B21

you make lil paul mcartney seem like dino cicarelli , i just don't see it.

i see a guy that when he bends the rules gets caught , when he gets cleaned out on a hit generally doesn't get the call because he's oversold a questionable hit earlier, his antics are a known quantity throughout the league and he is held to the same standard as nearly every other player. I take issue with the word punk, cheap, cheater, diver i'm okay with , there's something about the word punk that i object to; it puts him in the class as some real low-life's and i don't think he fits there,

[B21]

@flyerrod

<< Did I say that, NO. >>

Well - no. Like I said...someone else tried to use Briere's size as a reason for some of his antics. I brought up Crosby. You took Crosby's size versus Briere's size and ran with it...I assumed to reinforce why Briere's antics are "OK". If your point is that Crosby is bigger than Briere then well....duh. No kidding. Never what I intended to argue though.

<< Did I say Briere was careless with his stick and called for it. YES. Have I said in many other threads I dislike the way Briere dives? YES. You keep trying to make out that he is an Avery level punk and that idea is ludicrous. Neal is not a punk, he is a pu$$y and for all his skill, Crosby is still a whiny b!tch. >>

Whiny b!tch. Pu$$y. Punk. Kinda all semantics, no? I can go the “pu$$y” route with Briere, too. Look at some of the things he’s done then look at how many times he has fought in his career. I guarantee if the Flyers send out someone to fight Neal for the Giroux hit next year, Neal WILL drop with him. I know Cooke answers the bell. He fought Shawn friggin’ Thornton after the Savard hit. Huge mismatch. I guarantee Briere would not fight.

So what is that in your mind? Punk? Pu$$y? Both? If anything, Briere is one of those guys that takes advantage of being “little”. “I can act like a punk and not have to answer for it since fighting someone bigger than me is not fair.” If he’s not swinging from the bench or spearing guys in the nads when they aren’t looking he’s skedaddling out of the way like he did after the Nielsen hit. Maybe one can be a punk and a pu$$y at the same time. Who knows.

And no…Briere is not on the same level as an Avery. Is anyone? But he still is a punk in my eyes and for many of the same reasons that Crosby gets called a punk, pu$$y, whiney b!tch or whatever else has been thrown out there.

<< See, I did not refer to either one of them as punks.....I can honestly say right now you are not going to sway my opinion of Danny Briere because you type it and think it is so. Besides you are a pens fan and that REALLY lowers your objective views when it comes to Flyers...... and I trust you accept my opinions of Penguins as the same. . >>

So I guess my defending of the Mike Richards hit on Booth was Pens bias? Or saying that Eric Nystom did NOT deserve to be suspended for his headshot that concussed Letang? Yeah…real biased I am.

(OT but that hit on Nystrom? Mike Milbury of all people said he SHOULD be suspended…and as was clearly evidenced by how many Flyers fans agreed with Milbury’s anti-Pens rant, Milbury is to be taken seriously.)

[B21]

Pronger trailed off for years, Cooke had one clean year. I like consistency before I buy into his reform. But Cooke has his one year credit, certainly. It isn't as personal with me against Cooke as it is Kunitz especially. Neal as well, but not as bad, yet.

No argument over Briere, I hate his crap. I wish he'd keep his stick on the ice, maybe he could score a goal every 30 games or so in the regular season. The diving and flopping is sickening to me as well. Of course, then he'll get plowed by Kronwall or Chara and people make it out to be Briere flopping...totally ignoring physics. Maybe Briere would get more respect if he treated the game with more respect.

I guess we all have our own magic number as far as when a once-dirty player is now "clean". Pronger's last "incident" was March 2008. After that he had one clean year with the Ducks and another with the Flyers. 63 games in two seasons since. His incidents are so bad that that he will always be a dirty POS i/m/h/o. I do need to see more from Cooke, too. But his track record is not nearly as bad as Pronger so when comparing only those two, he does get more leeway.

It's refreshing to see your comments on Briere. At least in my experinece, that's the exception and not the norm with Flyers fans.

[B21]

@B21

you make lil paul mcartney seem like dino cicarelli , i just don't see it.

i see a guy that when he bends the rules gets caught , when he gets cleaned out on a hit generally doesn't get the call because he's oversold a questionable hit earlier, his antics are a known quantity throughout the league and he is held to the same standard as nearly every other player. I take issue with the word punk, cheap, cheater, diver i'm okay with , there's something about the word punk that i object to; it puts him in the class as some real low-life's and i don't think he fits there,

We can agree to disagree on Briere. But I have seen Crosby get called a punk for doing the exact same things Briere has done. The "name" really doesn't matter. It's Crosby constantly getting called out for things that players on the Flyers are just as guilty of if not more. Briere fits that mold. Not as big a punk (or whatever) as the Sean Averys of the world. Still a punk (or whatever) to me so long as Crosby carries that label.

Cheater...not sure where that came from but I DO NOT think Briere is a cheater. Diving is not cheating. Diving is players trying to do what they can to gain an advantage within the rules. Up to the officials to call it. Happens in just about every sport. When you say "cheating" I think "roids". The stick with too big a curve, the pads an inch to big, the acting to get a call...all part of the game. Like scuffing the ball in baseball. Sometimes you get caught. Sometimes you don't.

[AndyS]

Agree on Subban and Avery and Domi though I think only Avery fits the "look at me" mold you mentioned. If you want to rank players feel free. Doesn't change my opinion on Briere. He's not just "careless" with his stick. Not even close. More often than not he knows full well what he's doing. Without knowing how many sticking minors each player has been called for your argument that he's called for more is iffy at best...

Briere: 686 PIM in 813 career games...

Crosby: 401 PIM in 413 career games...

Neal: 268 PIM in in 314 career games....

So - let's try this again. The Crosby/Briere "size" non-issue became an issue when someone tried to justify Briere's "punk" acts by basically saying "well he small so he has to play that way or else he'll get killed out there...". The exact quote...

Regarding Briere, it must be tough to be a little guy playing a big man's game. He doesn't get too many calls despite his oscar worthy acting chops, i think he works his stick to keep from being made into a stain on the half-wall. he's a thoughtful guy . whom i'll bet discovered early on in his NHL career that he was going to have to reinterpret the rules if he was going to remain in the league.

I brought up Crosby who A) is not ** that ** much bigger than Briere yet for some reason (jersey color maybe?) it's OK when Briere does something but not Crosby. Of course, someone turns that into Briere is not as big as he is listed yadda yadda yadda. Fine then. I presented Exibit B. Martin St. Louis. Smaller than Briere. The furthest thing from a "punk" in the NHL.

Bottom line...Briere's size (or lack thereof) is not an excuse for being a punk. And yes - he is a punk. Using the same rationale seen here before (James Neal, Crosby, et al) it's impossible to say Neal/Crosby are and Briere is not. Neal has been suspended twice and fined once. Briere has been suspended 3 times and fined once. What has Crosby (generally considered a punk here) been killed for? Stick in the nuts. Kinda like Briere did to OV. Crosby jumped McLean off a face off. Not quite as bad as what Briere did to Nielsen off the faceoff. I know...Briere never punched a guy from behind like Crosby. Of course, Crosby never took a swing at a guy from the bench either.

I do not see how in the world you can compare Briere to Crosby in the punk category.

[Polaris922]

I do not see how in the world you can compare Briere to Crosby in the punk category.

Because in our eyes Crosby isn't a punk. He fights for himself, he plays with heart and yeah occasionally gives out an extra slash or two, but he takes more than he gives, that's for sure. He's been the victim of more crappy allegations and slurs out of jealousy for his talents than anyone really deserves to be, yet he handles it with grace and the worst he really says is along the lines of "yeah we don't like those guys". He doesn't hack somebody then run away, and when cornered he will drop the gloves if he has to. Regardless of the fact that he makes 8.7 mill a year and breaking his hand could be disastrous. I'm sure the Pens have talked to him MANY times telling him to hold back and let the team thugs handle things, but he still does what he feels is right and sticks up for himself. He's not perfect (see Crosby on Valabik)but he's hardly the punk Flyers fans have tried to villify him as. Honestly, a lot of folks just think it's a jealousy thing over his talent.

Oh and lastly... the whining thing or crybaby thing. A LOT of young players that break into the league make the mistake of yapping at officials. Unfortunately for Crosby, his talent level was so far above so many of his competitors' that he got held, hacked, and mauled a lot more than most players at his age. Yes he complained about it, like a lot of youngsters do, but he has also grown up a lot since breaking into the league at barely 18. If I had his talent and Carcillo or Clakson were draped all over my back as I'm skating, I'd probably get fed up and complain too! Unfortunately... i can't skate well enough to care! LOL

Edited July 10, 2012 by Polaris922

[B21]

I do not see how in the world you can compare Briere to Crosby in the punk category.

It's pretty simple. Some of the more talked about Crosby "incidents" followed by some comparables...

Crosby's stick to the nuts (forget the player). Didn't Briere do the same thing to OV? Yes.

Crosby's punching Valabik (Thrashers) from behind. About as cheap as Briere's swing at Prust from the bench? Yes.

Crosby jumping McLean (Panthers) off the face. Kinda like Briere's stick work on Nielsen off a face off? I'd say Briere's was worse.

Crosby dives. So does Briere. A lot. I've seen it and a few of your fellow fans have acknowledged it in this thread.

Crosby whines. Ever see Briere after a call he doesn't like? He barks at the officials, too.

This isn't made up information. These are facts. So you tell me...how in the world can you call one a "punk" (if that's your choice word) and NOT the other?

[flyerrod]

@B21

@Polaris922

Too this day, Crosby still acts like a spoiled petulant child. I guess his actions from the last series they played are fresh in my mind. All Pens fan do on any hockey board anywhere is defend his antics. I do not defend Briere's shortcomings ( a "little" humor) and I really HATE divers. It is ruining the sport of hockey. Perhaps that is why I take issues with people like Malkin,Letang, Crosby, Briere, Brown, Carcillo, and this list could go on of people that should be fined or suspended for their part in hamming for the call. They all have incredible skills and should not cheapen the game with their antics. This game is not Soccer nor should it ever be. Punk to me is a more derogatory name than whiner, pu$$y,or diver. Punk is reserved for guys like Avery, Tucker,Subban, or Domi. The true cowards of the game whose actions even embarrass their own fans.

[B21]

@B21

@Polaris922

Too this day, Crosby still acts like a spoiled petulant child. I guess his actions from the last series they played are fresh in my mind. All Pens fan do on any hockey board anywhere is defend his antics. I do not defend Briere's shortcomings ( a "little" humor) and I really HATE divers. It is ruining the sport of hockey. Perhaps that is why I take issues with people like Malkin,Letang, Crosby, Briere, Brown, Carcillo, and this list could go on of people that should be fined or suspended for their part in hamming for the call. They all have incredible skills and should not cheapen the game with their antics. This game is not Soccer nor should it ever be. Punk to me is a more derogatory name than whiner, pu$$y,or diver. Punk is reserved for guys like Avery, Tucker,Subban, or Domi. The true cowards of the game whose actions even embarrass their own fans.

So we disagree on punk vs. pu$$y vs. whiner vs. whatever. Bottom line - there are players on the Flyers as equally as "guilty" of doing some of the things Crosby does.

As for acting like a spoiled petualnt child - please elaborate. Any specifics?

[radoran]

So we disagree on punk vs. pu$$y vs. whiner vs. whatever. Bottom line - there are players on the Flyers as equally as "guilty" of doing some of the things Crosby does.

It's called "hockey."

The rest is just semantics.

[sarsippius]

Annnnnd I'm saving that one for a little bit. Priceless!

@doom88

Lol I am truly honored!

[flyerrod]

As for acting like a spoiled petualnt child - please elaborate. Any specifics?

You are kidding right? I can understand you wanting to put the last series the Pens played behind you but come on.......take your pick of his interviews from that series alone.....

[B21]

You are kidding right? I can understand you wanting to put the last series the Pens played behind you but come on.......take your pick of his interviews from that series alone.....

Yeah - I heard those. He is a petulant child because he doesn't like the Flyers? Because he said the comments made by Berube and Tortie were "garbage"?

Heck - if you are going by comments made to the media the biggest - by FAR the biggest people acting like petulant children were Torties, Berube AND Lavi.

So tell me - what exactly did he say that makes him a petulant child?

[flyerrod]

Yeah - I heard those. He is a petulant child because he doesn't like the Flyers? Because he said the comments made by Berube and Tortie were "garbage"?

Heck - if you are going by comments made to the media the biggest - by FAR the biggest people acting like petulant children were Torties, Berube AND Lavi.

So tell me - what exactly did he say that makes him a petulant child?

Sorry bud, If you have the blinders on that tight, nothing I say will matter. Please feel free to keep cruising around in your own little happy world. Cheers.

[Polaris922]

I don't see what he does as childish anymore. Early on, yes he had his moments... these days though.. I think you either love him or hate him. If you love him you think he got hooked, hacked, or mauled and he's right to mouth off a little. If you hate him you saw the same play, say to yourself "that's what ya get", and label him whiner or crybaby. Anyway... obviously we're not changing each others' minds about it.. so here's some great things to remember the term PUNK with...

<IFRAME height=315 src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0yDjfXw-lVE?rel=0"' embed www.youtube.com http:></IFRAME>

Edited July 10, 2012 by Polaris922

[B21]

Sorry bud, If you have the blinders on that tight, nothing I say will matter. Please feel free to keep cruising around in your own little happy world. Cheers.

You said his actions from that last playoff series. So which ones are you referring to? You made the comment. Not me. Now you can't come up with anything? I watched the same series and didn't think there was anything to justify calling him a "petulant child". So tell me...which ones? I got all day.

Edit: If you have something legitimate then yes - it will matter. But if you come back with what I think you will come back with then the only blinders in question here are of the orange and black variety.

Edited July 10, 2012 by B21

[sarsippius]

I tried to stay out of this. I really did. @B21

Crysby causes this enire melee. He goes after Timonen, as if he was actually going to do something, Timonen barely reacts, then LeWang jumps in to fight the battle for him....right, the battle HE started, as if Timonen had been the aggressor. Crysby then locks up with Giroux, and doesn't throw a punch....right, until the linesman steps in. Oh, and this was a couple minutes after Crotchby knocked Voracek's glove away from him as he was leaning over to pick it up. Child, punk, d*ckhead, coward, whatever term you want to use.

Big man that LeWang by the way, jump in and catch a 38 year old non fighter off guard and pound his head into the ice. I can't wait for that c*cksucker to get his, but I guess knocking his goofy a*s out of the playoffs was a nice start. See, I was trying to enjoy a nice mellow offseason and you guys just HAD to get me started

See replay at about 2:12

[sarsippius]

Seriously, could he sound and look any more like a child here, with that goofy punk smirk and those girl lips? I have no problem with the message, but deliver it like man....yes, before you point it out, I get the irony in my own childishness with these posts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOeb63wGyTY

[doom88]

You said his actions from that last playoff series. So which ones are you referring to? You made the comment. Not me. Now you can't come up with anything? I watched the same series and didn't think there was anything to justify calling him a "petulant child". So tell me...which ones? I got all day.

Edit: If you have something legitimate then yes - it will matter. But if you come back with what I think you will come back with then the only blinders in question here are of the orange and black variety.

@sarsippius has it covered I think. First thing that came to my mind about that series.

[radoran]

@sarsippius has it covered I think. First thing that came to my mind about that series.

I would have been embarassed if Crosby had been my team's captain in that series.

Black and Gold blinders work wonders as well, it seems

[doom88]

I would have been embarassed if Crosby had been my team's captain in that series.

Black and Gold blinders work wonders as well, it seems

No kidding. I was genuinely surprised he stooped that low. We're talking Avery waving his arms in front of Brodeur low, and then some.

He never really got his penalties either did he...

[B21]

@radoran

@doom88

@sarsippius

All you have is the glove and to call that worse than Avery/Brodeur? Gimma a friggin' break. Textbook O&B goggles! You all would LOVE it if...say...Hartnell did that Crosby. LOVE IT. "Goes after Timmonen". Yeah - that never happens in a melee. The entire Giroux incident is NOT "petulant child" worthy. They tangled. Linesman steps in. I am sure he was thinking "Let me wait until the ref is here...". You WANT that to be true because it's another feather in the Crosby-hater cap. Y'all don't like him. That's fine. You really aren't supposed to. But enough with the making things up or interpreting what happened with the O&B goggles on trying to justify it. The fact that he's a Penguin should be plenty. The fact that you can't write more than two posts with out adding a little unrelated insult to injury tells me all I need to know.

Hey - maybe Briere is a cocky little prick. I don't know. Nothing really to show it. But I could pick out a scrum - any scrum - and say "man doesn't Briere look like a cocky little prick." Everyone in the Pens forums reads it and "poof!" suddenly Briere is a cocky little prick. Do you see me making things up about Briere? Or Pronger? No! Every POS incident in their careers are pretty much indisputable POS incidents.