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Why do all the writers act like Hartnell is as good as gone?


Guest RonJeremy
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Every time you read up on the cap situation, the writers act as if we have no intention of re-signing Hartnell,they always mention next year his contract comes off the books. Why would we not keep our top power winger,the only guy who crashes the net and scores the dirty goals in front. We already lost 2 big forwards in JVR and Jagr. Hartnell must be kept,he comes to play every night and there are few players with his grit and scoring.

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Every time you read up on the cap situation, the writers act as if we have no intention of re-signing Hartnell,they always mention next year his contract comes off the books. Why would we not keep our top power winger,the only guy who crashes the net and scores the dirty goals in front. We already lost 2 big forwards in JVR and Jagr. Hartnell must be kept,he comes to play every night and there are few players with his grit and scoring.

2 seasons ago they would have been right.

After last season, I don't think so.

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@radoran

But if they resign either Hartnell or Timonen (or both), their salaries remain as part of the cap hit. Right?

Sure, but if you look at Timo and Hartnell and their $10.5333M. Hartnell is just about in line for average pay for his production (maybe slightly lower? so he goes up to $4.5M?) So he signs at that and Timo signs at, say $4M you're saving a few million on the cap. Even at $5M you've got an extra $1.5M

Also, like this year with Jagr and Carle, you have the space to make moves if you want to (although you obviously risk losing the player).

All I'm saying is "their money coming off the cap" doesn't 100% equate to "Flyers will not re-sign them" and I'm not sure the media people talking about the cap room that will be available once their contracts expire automatically assume that neither is coming back.

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Sure, but if you look at Timo and Hartnell and their $10.5333M. Hartnell is just about in line for average pay for his production (maybe slightly lower? so he goes up to $4.5M?) So he signs at that and Timo signs at, say $4M you're saving a few million on the cap. Even at $5M you've got an extra $1.5M

Also, like this year with Jagr and Carle, you have the space to make moves if you want to (although you obviously risk losing the player).

All I'm saying is "their money coming off the cap" doesn't 100% equate to "Flyers will not re-sign them" and I'm not sure the media people talking about the cap room that will be available once their contracts expire automatically assume that neither is coming back.

Hartnell at 4.5? Jagr just got 4.5 and Carle just got 5.5. If Hartnell puts up 35+ goals again, which he should playing with Giroux, then he will command closer to 6m a year.

Edited by jdimaggio555
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2 seasons ago they would have been right.

After last season, I don't think so.

People really knock Hartnell. Of all the signings that Homer has made, this the one that has come closest to the bullseye. Two years ago, people were pissed because Hartnell was playing like an idiot (his skating was atrocious and he was incessantly taking idiotic / lazy penalties). But that was only one year. If you look at his body of work as a Flyer, he is exacly as billed (on average he is a 25 / 50 guy).

This is why I kind of chuckle when people say Jagr got way overpaid in Dallas. He got paid 500k too much. The median for 25 / 50 guys is around 4m- especially when they are playing 18m a night.

As far as the sports writer part goes, they have gone by the way of the dinasaur- because of the internet, with some slim exceptions (guys like Meltzer). Truthfully, I think 2/3 of this forum could write more intelligent hockey articles than 90% of the beat writers- and that is WITHOUT having "sources" or hanging out at the rink on a regular basis.

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@Vanflyer "People really knock Hartnell. Of all the signings that Homer has made, this the one that has come closest to the bullseye."

If I had a buck for every time I read a "trade Hartnell" post, I'd be retired on a Island somewhere...lol. He did look brutal at one point, but he's a fine example of how players can turn it around and make what seems to be a horrible deal an awesome bargain. Same goes for Briere, I wanted this guy gone badly 3 years ago, let's be honest, we all did (ok, most) and he did a startling 360, the seeminly selfish, soft, lazy bum inexpicably turned on the rockets and made Homer look like a genius. That's not even touching on how magnificant he has been in the Playoffs, a money player if there ever was one....when it counts the most. Sometimes, we have to remember, things can be bad off the ice, family issues etc.

Guess what I'm trying to say is, what you see is not always what you will get in the end. Even from players in mid career. Tigers can change their stripes.

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@jammer2

That is the problem. We put these guys under a microscopes and dissect every little thing and forget to look at the bigger picture. It is a good thing that 99% of us are not a GM for the Flyers (or any team for that matter), because our rationality is so skewed by our fandom.

As fans, paying ones at that (one way or another- we all pay), it is our luxury and prerogative to do so. Yet in doing so, we become myopic in our views.

Hartnell has been exactly as billed and had a disastrous (not life and death, but still) personal life situation that got carried onto the ice.

With Briere, there are only two words I have to say when ever his "value" comes up: Gomez / Drury. I was in the Drury camp that summer. That said, Briere has turned out to be the greatest value by a mile. I also think he has become a BETTER hockey player. When we signed him, he was one dimensional and that dimension was from the red line forward.

He will never be a selke finalist, but he does play 180 feet now and not just 60 feet.

He too had off ice issues that he had to move through.

And you are right, a tiger can change their stripes.

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Hey, if Hartnell has a great season, the Flyers may well extend him during it - which is another reason it would be nice to have some cap space available...

People really knock Hartnell. Of all the signings that Homer has made, this the one that has come closest to the bullseye.

I figured when he was signed that by the end of the deal he would be as relatively underpaid as he was relatively overpaid at the start of it, and that's exactly how it went. I agree it was a very astute signing (as was Timonen at the same time).

If Hartnell can get $6M, I just don't see him fitting into the Flyers longer-term plans. Yes, the CBA could allow for an exemption or one-time opportunity or they could buy out so-and-so or tell that one he's a pile of dingo's kidneys and we don't want you around here anymore because you smell to get them to allow the Flyers to acquire another Matt Walker to stash in the AHL but in realistic terms it's just not likely to happen.

I *can* see Harts signing a longer term deal with a lot of bucks up front and lower long term cap hit to stay with the Flyers.

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I figured when he was signed that by the end of the deal he would be as relatively underpaid as he was relatively overpaid at the start of it, and that's exactly how it went. I agree it was a very astute signing (as was Timonen at the same time).

I guess, but was he really overpaid at the start? I guess you could say at the time, but still, he was a 25 / 50 / 150 Pims guy his first two years. I don't remember what the market was for 25/50 winger guys at that time, but it sounds reasonable to me at 4M. His last two years are also 25 / 50 (on average). He definitely had a career year last year, but that has allot to do with Jagr and Giroux. His stripes have not changed that much. The biggest difference with him now is that he takes far less lazy / stupid penalties.

Where does the 6M figure come from?? I don't see that at all. What I see is 4.5M with the Flyers for another 4 years.

I don't see hartnells skill set having value or quality beyond another 4 years. I do think that he is a quality guy and has "grown-up" allot during his tenure as a Flyer. I could give him a 5 or 6 year contract, but I would drop the cap hit down to 3.6 and front load the salary as you have suggested. The problem for me is that I am not sure he is effective on a third line role (which would be the last two years IMO). So, do you do 4 years at 4.5 cap or 5/6 years at 3.7 ish??

I think he really likes it in Philly- and the fans have really embraced him. That goes a long way. It is funny with fans, once you have won them over, they will like you forever- even when you deteriorate on your skills. He is a philly type of guy in that he is kind of a misfit pro. You look at his all-star appearance where he was embarrassed to even go. The "Hartnelldown" thing he created was excellent. Even fans outside of Philly embraced that.

Can he get "paid" elsewhere- sure. But outside of the oppurtunity to get a ring, why??

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“This is tiger and less than 5 like probably 500 species left on earth, yeah. China law, if you kill tiger like this, death penalty. Yeah. If you kill tiger and they find you, your dead, that’s it.”

This is a bit off topic, but being that I currently live in SE asia, the Chinese are the WORST abusers in the world of killing tigers. There was a program on CI recently that portrayed what they do there.

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Sure, but if you look at Timo and Hartnell and their $10.5333M. Hartnell is just about in line for average pay for his production (maybe slightly lower? so he goes up to $4.5M?) So he signs at that and Timo signs at, say $4M you're saving a few million on the cap. Even at $5M you've got an extra $1.5M

Also, like this year with Jagr and Carle, you have the space to make moves if you want to (although you obviously risk losing the player).

All I'm saying is "their money coming off the cap" doesn't 100% equate to "Flyers will not re-sign them" and I'm not sure the media people talking about the cap room that will be available once their contracts expire automatically assume that neither is coming back.

Well put. Basically they are saying that the money once dedicated to their contracts is thus free to apply somewhere else.

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The cap hit will be gone, but replaced. I hope the Flyers can resign at a reasonable price. I do not want to see him in Pit.

Doubt that ever happens. Then again I said the same thing about John LeClair and Rick Tocchet. ;)

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Doubt that ever happens. Then again I said the same thing about John LeClair and Rick Tocchet. ;)

Haha yeah. Hartnell is a tough guy to play against, and I know Pit would take full advantage. No thank you sir, hope Philly pays up.

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I guess, but was he really overpaid at the start? I guess you could say at the time, but still, he was a 25 / 50 / 150 Pims guy his first two years. I don't remember what the market was for 25/50 winger guys at that time, but it sounds reasonable to me at 4M. His last two years are also 25 / 50 (on average). He definitely had a career year last year, but that has allot to do with Jagr and Giroux. His stripes have not changed that much. The biggest difference with him now is that he takes far less lazy / stupid penalties.

I think if you look at when the Flyers traded for him, he had the rep in Nashville as a guy with questionable skating, who had been injured in two of the past three seasons and who's penchant for a bad penalty was a potential problem. Nashville was evaluating their guys like the Flyers evaluate their picks - "someone's got to have something better than this."

Hartnell had put up 25/48/101, then 22/39/106 in just 64 games. I think if a 25/50 guy is a $4.5M player in this league today, the market was lower then.

Where does the 6M figure come from?? I don't see that at all. What I see is 4.5M with the Flyers for another 4 years.

Another post on this thread. I agree, as I said, that I can see Hartnell taking less to stay with the Flyers

I think he really likes it in Philly- and the fans have really embraced him. That goes a long way. It is funny with fans, once you have won them over, they will like you forever- even when you deteriorate on your skills. He is a philly type of guy in that he is kind of a misfit pro. You look at his all-star appearance where he was embarrassed to even go. The "Hartnelldown" thing he created was excellent. Even fans outside of Philly embraced that.

Can he get "paid" elsewhere- sure. But outside of the oppurtunity to get a ring, why??

Yeah, I think he's got Rick Tocchet/Keith Jones-like longterm potential if he cuts the deal to stay here

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John LeClair and Rick Tocchet

Leclair was done when he went to Pitts. His back was mesh at that point. Tocchet on the other hand was a beast his first full season for Pitts. Show me another player in the game who put up 109 points AND 252 pims!!! You talk about an FHL wet dream! Of course Lemieux and Francis had allot to do with that.

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