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Well Done Homer


Guest Dynamo 47
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I applaud the job that Homer did this offseason and in particular the moves with Suter, Parise, and in particular Weber.

The Weber deal was huge and if the reports we hear are true, Homer tried repeatedly to make a trade with Nashville and only submitted the offer sheet when it was obvious that Nashville would not budge with their demand for Couterier or Schenn.

So Homer made a deal that really would make it difficult to match. Unfortunately for us Nashville did match but we kept Couterier and Schenn in the process.

I have no doubt that Homer attempted to get Nashville to agree to a trade to not match the offer. I also have no doubt that they insisted on Couterier or Schenn and to Homer's credit he did not budge.

Nashville really did not make a sensible move. If there is a lockout, Weber will be owed all that bonus money up to something like 16% of the franchise value. They also have to know that Weber is not happy and will likely demand a trade next season when the one year period is up from signing the offer sheet and it being matched. So in essence, Nashville likely will pay Weber 20 mil plus and lose him next season.

The Bright Side

Defense

Even without Weber the Flyers defense is improved over last season. Bryz, who is not without fault, played behind a defense where the best player, Pronger, was out all season, another Mez out for a significant time and until Grossman was acquired, no physical presence on the defense.

This season with a healthy Mez, a full season from Grossman, and a physical stay at home defender in Schenn, the defense will be more physical and Bryz should have more clear views of shots with less rebound chances simply because of having a couple defensemen who can clear the porch.

Offense

Regardless of whether the Flyers are still in the running for Shane Doan, I think the team will be fine offensively

I would move Briere up to Giroux's line to play right wing. With Giroux setting him up Danny could easily score 40 goals.

Moving Briere up to first line RW would also allow Schenn and Couts to move up and get more playing time and scoring chances.

Intangibles

We still have quite a bit of money to spend and could still make a lower magnitude move on defense of go after Bobby Ryan.

If we do nothing, our defense is improved, Bryz will hopefully be stronger in his 2nd full season and with better D, and our young players will only improve

Finally if we make no more major moves we have a boatload of cash for next season (especially if the Flyers do not extend or sign Kimo and Hartnell which is over $10 million in cap space) banner free agent crop which includes Ryan Getzlaff, Corey Perry, Iggy, etc.

So while it does hurt not getting Weber it isn't the end of the world...

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Well, I was underwhelmed by Homers draft. It seemed he was picking players at least one round early. But time will tell.

I really wanted Weber, but am fine with how it turned out. Didn't want Suter (he just isn't what we needed) and Parise would have been a luxury, not a need. That goes for Ryan as well. Doan would bring some grit we could use, without costing young players. Not sure I want him for 4 years though.

Our D is better through health and the Grossman/Schenn acquisitions...and the fact Bryzgalov can't play worse than last year.

The team as it sits likely isn't a cup contender, but we've got a lot of really good young players. We don't have to go for it now. Patience, grasshopper.

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Well, I was underwhelmed by Homers draft. It seemed he was picking players at least one round early. But time will tell.

I really wanted Weber, but am fine with how it turned out. Didn't want Suter (he just isn't what we needed) and Parise would have been a luxury, not a need. That goes for Ryan as well. Doan would bring some grit we could use, without costing young players. Not sure I want him for 4 years though.

Our D is better through health and the Grossman/Schenn acquisitions...and the fact Bryzgalov can't play worse than last year.

The team as it sits likely isn't a cup contender, but we've got a lot of really good young players. We don't have to go for it now. Patience, grasshopper.

Agreed which is why we sit and see what else might transpire as far as availability.

How do you feel about Subban? He has similar Weber like tools and would be a lot less money. He would give a right handed shot, physical presence, and some offense we need on the back end. The bad thing is that it would require another offer sheet and Montreal would almost definitely match which means trade and a repeat of the whole Weber ordeal

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I like Subbans talent. I think he's a jerk. Maybe he just needs some coaching? If you could get him to ease off on the turnovers he's a very valuable piece. You also don't want to throw offersheets all over the place.

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I really had it in my mind that Weber would be wearing orange and black this year, so now I'm really disappointed!! BUT, when I consider that Weber wasn't even on the radar a week ago as a legitimate possibility, I guess it kinda puts things in check.

At the end of the day, this team is only better if our young guys take that next step to help support the vets.

I'd really like to see a top line of Hartnell/Giroux/Voracek for an extended period of time and see what they can do, or as you mentioned @Dynamo 47, Briere up there as well.

Something tells me Homer might not stand pat after losing out on 4 big names though...

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I really had it in my mind that Weber would be wearing orange and black this year, so now I'm really disappointed!! BUT, when I consider that Weber wasn't even on the radar a week ago as a legitimate possibility, I guess it kinda puts things in check.

At the end of the day, this team is only better if our young guys take that next step to help support the vets.

I'd really like to see a top line of Hartnell/Giroux/Voracek for an extended period of time and see what they can do, or as you mentioned @Dynamo 47, Briere up there as well.

Something tells me Homer might not stand pat after losing out on 4 big names though...

Greetings:

For the first time in ages we will see a core group of youngsters grow together. I think Homer will start drafting and trading for more good d-men as our forward corps looks pretty good. So I am not disappointed with the outcome. Homer tried but as my mom used to say, things happen for a reason. Maybe we are learning to build more from within.

Best,

Howie

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I really had it in my mind that Weber would be wearing orange and black this year, so now I'm really disappointed!! BUT, when I consider that Weber wasn't even on the radar a week ago as a legitimate possibility, I guess it kinda puts things in check.

At the end of the day, this team is only better if our young guys take that next step to help support the vets.

I'd really like to see a top line of Hartnell/Giroux/Voracek for an extended period of time and see what they can do, or as you mentioned @Dynamo 47, Briere up there as well.

Something tells me Homer might not stand pat after losing out on 4 big names though...

That's what I'm afraid of since both Holmgren and Snider are competitive guys and want to win now, Holmgren is capable of doing a reaction move to not getting Weber and the Rangers getting Nash. But if he wasn't willing to give up Schenn or Couturier for Weber then I can't see him giving either one of those players up for Bobby Ryan or anybody else (well lets hope he won't). The defense isn't bad considering they don't have a marquee defenseman like Weber or Pronger (who sounds like is done). Let Bourdon develop more, and if they can sign Doan to a reasonable contract then go for it otherwise resign Voracek and try him out on Giroux's wing, he might work out well playing with Giroux.

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@flyercanuck

I don't mind the offseason moves, but, like you, I was underwhelmed by the draft. We picked up a couple decent players, but I don't think even with pictures I will ever understand why we left some really good defensemen on the board only to take yet another center. That center could end up being terrific, but we need to start growing some defensemen so we're not in the position of incessantly having to try to rape other teams for theirs.

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I applaud the job that Homer did this offseason and in particular the moves with Suter, Parise, and in particular Weber.

The Weber deal was huge and if the reports we hear are true, Homer tried repeatedly to make a trade with Nashville and only submitted the offer sheet when it was obvious that Nashville would not budge with their demand for Couterier or Schenn.

So Homer made a deal that really would make it difficult to match. Unfortunately for us Nashville did match but we kept Couterier and Schenn in the process.

I have no doubt that Homer attempted to get Nashville to agree to a trade to not match the offer. I also have no doubt that they insisted on Couterier or Schenn and to Homer's credit he did not budge.

Nashville really did not make a sensible move. If there is a lockout, Weber will be owed all that bonus money up to something like 16% of the franchise value. They also have to know that Weber is not happy and will likely demand a trade next season when the one year period is up from signing the offer sheet and it being matched. So in essence, Nashville likely will pay Weber 20 mil plus and lose him next season.

The Bright Side

Defense

Even without Weber the Flyers defense is improved over last season. Bryz, who is not without fault, played behind a defense where the best player, Pronger, was out all season, another Mez out for a significant time and until Grossman was acquired, no physical presence on the defense.

This season with a healthy Mez, a full season from Grossman, and a physical stay at home defender in Schenn, the defense will be more physical and Bryz should have more clear views of shots with less rebound chances simply because of having a couple defensemen who can clear the porch.

Offense

Regardless of whether the Flyers are still in the running for Shane Doan, I think the team will be fine offensively

I would move Briere up to Giroux's line to play right wing. With Giroux setting him up Danny could easily score 40 goals.

Moving Briere up to first line RW would also allow Schenn and Couts to move up and get more playing time and scoring chances.

Intangibles

We still have quite a bit of money to spend and could still make a lower magnitude move on defense of go after Bobby Ryan.

If we do nothing, our defense is improved, Bryz will hopefully be stronger in his 2nd full season and with better D, and our young players will only improve

Finally if we make no more major moves we have a boatload of cash for next season (especially if the Flyers do not extend or sign Kimo and Hartnell which is over $10 million in cap space) banner free agent crop which includes Ryan Getzlaff, Corey Perry, Iggy, etc.

So while it does hurt not getting Weber it isn't the end of the world...

we are lucky to have the management and ownership that we have. they're not afraid to make incredibly bold moves, which keeps the off-season exciting every year. of course, they're not 100% success rate, far from it. but, i'd much rather have this group than most others. let's face it, there is a bit of luck that is also involved in winning the cup, but you can't fault these guys for trying year in and year out.

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@flyercanuck

I don't mind the offseason moves, but, like you, I was underwhelmed by the draft. We picked up a couple decent players, but I don't think even with pictures I will ever understand why we left some really good defensemen on the board only to take yet another center. That center could end up being terrific, but we need to start growing some defensemen so we're not in the position of incessantly having to try to rape other teams for theirs.

And so life as a Flyer fan goes on, and on, and on.

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@Dynamo47

Well said.

And I expect Bryz to settle in & play really well this season.

I agree with your take on our defense - overall our D just got stronger & more physical. It will be a strong suit for the Flyers, even without adding Weber.

And I also suspect that Homer is going to trade for Bobby Ryan (rather than signing Doan). Anaheim will probably trade him for picks, so they can free up salary to re-sign Perry & Getzlaf.

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@flyercanuck

I don't mind the offseason moves, but, like you, I was underwhelmed by the draft. We picked up a couple decent players, but I don't think even with pictures I will ever understand why we left some really good defensemen on the board only to take yet another center. That center could end up being terrific, but we need to start growing some defensemen so we're not in the position of incessantly having to try to rape other teams for theirs.

A lot of us were underwhelmed by the previous draft as well . . .until we saw Coutourier play.

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@flyercanuck

I don't mind the offseason moves, but, like you, I was underwhelmed by the draft. We picked up a couple decent players, but I don't think even with pictures I will ever understand why we left some really good defensemen on the board only to take yet another center. That center could end up being terrific, but we need to start growing some defensemen so we're not in the position of incessantly having to try to rape other teams for theirs.

I kind of agree with that Rux. There were a couple good defenseman still on the board when we took Laughton. I still would have likely went for Maatta strictly because of his talent and the need. I also thought Dalton Thrower had Flyers written all over him but a first would have probably been too high. But there is a reason I am here and Homer is making multimillion dollar offers.

I think/hope/pray we might have found a diamond in the rough in Fredrik Larsson as he has size and a little attitude to boot.

Bottom line is that no one truly knows. You have top 5 defenseman like Cam Barker or Bogosian who have yet to live up to the hype and guys like Weber who were 2nd round picks (49th) signing 100 million dollar offer sheets.

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As an outsider looking in... I think your D got more punishing with Schenn but less threatening losing Carle. Better? Worse? I dunno... Depends on what you value more.

At forward I think you'll do better with Jagr gone. A younger man with that ice time with the talent some of your youngsters have... There you've improved.

As for the Weber thing... Holmgren had guts but I also wonder if he'd waited a year to formally offer and just talked with Weber's agent in the meantime you guys could have sealed him as a UFA next season. If he truly wanted out of Nash and into Philly... You guys offered the right money, just shoulda waited till Nashville had to say in it. Holmgren bet it all and lost. Brave or stupid... Not sure which.

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As an outsider looking in... I think your D got more punishing with Schenn but less threatening losing Carle. Better? Worse? I dunno... Depends on what you value more.

At forward I think you'll do better with Jagr gone. A younger man with that ice time with the talent some of your youngsters have... There you've improved.

As for the Weber thing... Holmgren had guts but I also wonder if he'd waited a year to formally offer and just talked with Weber's agent in the meantime you guys could have sealed him as a UFA next season. If he truly wanted out of Nash and into Philly... You guys offered the right money, just shoulda waited till Nashville had to say in it. Holmgren bet it all and lost. Brave or stupid... Not sure which.

i have some problems with your assertions here. Homer could not just talk with Weber's agent in the meanwhile... that's what's known as 'Tampering'. of all that could be questioned about Homer's PP on a RFA OS, timing isn't one of them. The timing was critical with the uncertainty of having a season next year. He gambled that Nashville management wouldn't be able to match that offer. I think that was a pretty safe bet. Nashville is insane for matching that offer and it could very well end up sinking that team. $33m in *2* players next year!!!? it was a prideful move and i think it will turn out to be completely stupid. they'll have a great D man for a long time though... trouble is, he won't have anyone surrounding him when they can't keep their 12!??!?!!?? FA's next year.

If Homer waits, he's in a bidding war with 20 something other teams in a year before he needs to resign Giroux and Schenn with presumably very large deals. i think it's best to leave it at... it was a gamle and it didn't work. question the couth of the move all you want, but as far as strategy... it's hard to argue it was anything but genius. Stupid!? hardly.

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i have some problems with your assertions here. Homer could not just talk with Weber's agent in the meanwhile... that's what's known as 'Tampering'. of all that could be questioned about Homer's PP on a RFA OS, timing isn't one of them. The timing was critical with the uncertainty of having a season next year. He gambled that Nashville management wouldn't be able to match that offer. I think that was a pretty safe bet. Nashville is insane for matching that offer and it could very well end up sinking that team. $33m in *2* players next year!!!? it was a prideful move and i think it will turn out to be completely stupid. they'll have a great D man for a long time though... trouble is, he won't have anyone surrounding him when they can't keep their 12!??!?!!?? FA's next year.

If Homer waits, he's in a bidding war with 20 something other teams in a year before he needs to resign Giroux and Schenn with presumably very large deals. i think it's best to leave it at... it was a gamle and it didn't work. question the couth of the move all you want, but as far as strategy... it's hard to argue it was anything but genius. Stupid!? hardly.

There is no rule prohibiting talking to Weber as an RFA and telling him we'd love to have you, we're willing to pay this much... But the Preds will probably match it. What do you think? Maybe next season? If there is NO lockout, you get your man a year further down the road. Money wise his figures are the same so it has the same impact financially a year down the road for your other free agents. And Weber gets to choose... The risk is someone else makes a better offer.

As it stands I don't see this salary cap hit hurting Nashville at all. They were going to be paying 7.5 - 7.8 a year for him anyway. No Suter freed up money... What's the big deal? He's your "franchise player" you're building on, so to speak.

My point with Holmgren is it was a big gamble. We'll never know if it was his best option because Weber will never hit UFa status now. It's a matter of opinion if he could have locked him in next season. Honestly I think you would have gotten him in UFA if he really wanted to be in O&B. *shrugs*. We'll never know...

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I also think it was a mistake leaving Ollie Matta on the board when he was available. Everytime I saw this kid I noticed little nuances that only a veteran could pull off. Just a really smart cerebral d-man that does everything good but nothing great. Should be interesting to watch the career trajectories of Laughton and Matta. I do think Scott will be a nice player, but seeing Matta on the Pens makes me ill. Just cause a guy is not flashy does not mean you should pass....I'll take smart and super dependable any day of the week.

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There is no rule prohibiting talking to Weber as an RFA and telling him we'd love to have you, we're willing to pay this much... But the Preds will probably match it. What do you think? Maybe next season? If there is NO lockout, you get your man a year further down the road. Money wise his figures are the same so it has the same impact financially a year down the road for your other free agents. And Weber gets to choose... The risk is someone else makes a better offer.

As it stands I don't see this salary cap hit hurting Nashville at all. They were going to be paying 7.5 - 7.8 a year for him anyway. No Suter freed up money... What's the big deal? He's your "franchise player" you're building on, so to speak.

My point with Holmgren is it was a big gamble. We'll never know if it was his best option because Weber will never hit UFa status now. It's a matter of opinion if he could have locked him in next season. Honestly I think you would have gotten him in UFA if he really wanted to be in O&B. *shrugs*. We'll never know...

I think the Weber offer sheet was two-fold, first there is no disputing that Weber wanted Suter type money because of the uncertainty of the next CBA when it comes to lengths of contract, front-loading and possibility of the owners wanting the UFA age moved back a couple of years which would have screwed Weber. The second part of it is Holmgren who obviously wanted Weber on the Flyers seen it as a no lose situation because if he didn't end up with Weber than nobody in the eastern conference would end up with him especially if he went to unrestriced free agency next summer. He took a gamble and didn't win, now it's back to business of signing his own RFAs and seeing possible trades elsewhere. The only thing I would say regarding all of this is I would have parted with Brayden Schenn as part of a deal if that's what it took to get Weber but I definitely wouldn't have package both Schenn and Couturier to get Weber, to me Couturier is more untouchable then B.Schenn when it comes to possible trading chips.

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I think Homer will start drafting and trading for more good d-men as our forward corps looks pretty good.

Hi Howie-

The problem is that this years draft was loaded with d-men through the first 60 picks (2 rounds). With both our first and second round pick, it seems that we did not draft the best player on the board. So, your optimism for homer to draft a d-man in the future is skeptical to me. While I am sure it will happen by chance, THIS year was the year of the d-man when it comes to drafts.

Enjoy your merlot.

;)

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Anyone interested in Petr Sykora? He would be a nice fallback to Doan, and actually might be a better choice. Similar production, younger, and cheaper. But he's got Devil stink on him ;)

And I've always liked Langkow... was kinda sad to see him go from the Flyers. He's a UFA, would come cheap, and is excellent at faceoffs. Sign him to one year, and move either Briere or Schenn to the wing for the season.

Hartnell/Giroux/VOracek

Simmonds/Briere/Schenn

Talbot/Couturier/Read

Rinaldo/Langkow/Wellwood

That's not half bad; I might even swap Read and Simmonds depending on the opponent. If you get a winger instead of a center, I think that might push Coots to the 4th line, where you'd have G, Briere, and Schenn ahead of him.

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