Jump to content

Flyers need help on D, not Bobby Ryan


Guest murraycraven
 Share

Recommended Posts

Let me start off by saying that I am not a fan of Pannacio and quite frankly cant stand the guy but I am in full agreement with this article. We need defense - plain and simple. As much as I like ryan he is nothing more than a luxury at this point. We need a dman even if it is a depth move for a 3-5 defensemen...

IMO, this defense is very suspect considering you have the following (in no particular order):

1. Kimmo - running out of gas

2. Grossman - concussion and knee issues

3. Mesz - coming off of a significant injury

4. Schenn - like the potential but looked incredibly lost in the defensive zone for the Laffs the past two seasons. Also, can not move the puck very well...

5. MAB - coming off a significant injury

6. Gus - time will tell & not proven

7. Manning - time will tell & not proven

8. Lilja - was too old 2 years ago...

9. Bruno - um... face it, he is just not that good.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

General manager Paul Holmgren openly admitted last week he’s never encountered a summer as frustrating as this one during his six-year tenure as Flyers general manager.

He hoped to re-sign Matt Carle, then lost the veteran defenseman to Tampa Bay.

He hoped his twin, $100-million-plus offers would entice Nashville D-man Ryan Suter and New Jersey forward Zach Parise to Philadelphia. He lost both to Minnesota.

He was counting heavily on his front-loaded, $110 million offer sheet to defenseman Shea Weber would be impossible for Nashville to match. But the Preds matched nonetheless.

Holmgren has taken an “0-for” this summer in free agency, as far as recruiting top-end talent is concerned.

His other deals that brought Luke Schenn (trade), Bruno Gervais and Ruslan Fedotenko (free agency) here are depth moves.

Holmgren made a valiant effort to move the heavens and failed. His frustration, however, has carried over to the fan base, which now wants more than ever to trade for Anaheim winger Bobby Ryan.

Which makes no sense at all.

There seems to be a feeling in Flyerdom that the club has to make a splash every summer, even if such makes little sense.

The Rangers traded for Rick Nash. Where does it say that the Flyers have to answer?

The Flyers don’t need Ryan. They needed Suter or Weber.

They don’t need 35 more goals as much as they need 35 less on the back end. Ryan (plus-1 this season) is not on par with other two-way defensive-conscious forwards such as Mike Richards, Claude Giroux or Sean Couturier. He won’t save them 35 goals.

Yeah, they’re centers and Ryan is not, but the point is: the Flyers still have a gaping hole on the blue line and Ryan isn’t going to fill it.

And if the cost of obtaining Ryan is to further weaken the blue line – Ducks GM Bob Murray reportedly wants defensive help – then such a trade makes even less sense.

That Holmgren tried so hard to get the best two defensemen out there is an acknowledgement by management that Chris Pronger will never play again in Philadelphia, not to mention that the team remains weaker without Carle.

As for the Rangers and Nash … The Rangers were a better team than the Flyers last season even without Nash. The Rangers need more scoring. The Flyers need less goals against.

The Rangers, from the blue line through goal, where Henrik Lundqvist virtually owned them last season, are stronger than the Flyers. What the Flyers have to do is match them somehow on the other side of the blue line.

There is no unrestricted defenseman left on the market anywhere near the caliber of Suter or Weber. Next year’s crop has a number of well-paid D-men who are/or will be, 35 or older, and one very good under-35 player in San Jose’s Douglas Murray.

The Flyers can’t wait an entire season to fix their blue line. Then again, given a lockout seems inevitable, they have plenty of time to still search for trade options because it’s doubtful the season begins in October, anyway.

At this point, the Flyers need to scale back a bit and strengthen their blue line without further depleting it via trading for a coveted forward

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's the key question - identifying the problem is one thing.

Solving it is quite another.

What free agents are out there to pick up?

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=25880

I'd kick the tires on Carliocovo, Foster, Spacek, Leipsto?

Aside from that, what assets do you want to give up in pursuit of more help on D and where do they acquire it?

Popular opinion has Yandle both available and cheap - I have no idea why Phoenix would be interested in dealing him (nor if there is an organization capable of making such a move at the moment).

That said - overall, aside from the threat of injury, I'm not unhappy with the D.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let me start off by saying that I am not a fan of Pannacio and quite frankly cant stand the guy but I am in full agreement with this article. We need defense - plain and simple. As much as I like ryan he is nothing more than a luxury at this point. We need a dman even if it is a depth move for a 3-5 defensemen...

IMO, this defense is very suspect considering you have the following (in no particular order):

1. Kimmo - running out of gas

2. Grossman - concussion and knee issues

3. Mesz - coming off of a significant injury

4. Schenn - like the potential but looked incredibly lost in the defensive zone for the Laffs the past two seasons. Also, can not move the puck very well...

5. MAB - coming off a significant injury

6. Gus - time will tell & not proven

7. Manning - time will tell & not proven

8. Lilja - was too old 2 years ago...

9. Bruno - um... face it, he is just not that good.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

General manager Paul Holmgren openly admitted last week he’s never encountered a summer as frustrating as this one during his six-year tenure as Flyers general manager.

He hoped to re-sign Matt Carle, then lost the veteran defenseman to Tampa Bay.

He hoped his twin, $100-million-plus offers would entice Nashville D-man Ryan Suter and New Jersey forward Zach Parise to Philadelphia. He lost both to Minnesota.

He was counting heavily on his front-loaded, $110 million offer sheet to defenseman Shea Weber would be impossible for Nashville to match. But the Preds matched nonetheless.

Holmgren has taken an “0-for” this summer in free agency, as far as recruiting top-end talent is concerned.

His other deals that brought Luke Schenn (trade), Bruno Gervais and Ruslan Fedotenko (free agency) here are depth moves.

Holmgren made a valiant effort to move the heavens and failed. His frustration, however, has carried over to the fan base, which now wants more than ever to trade for Anaheim winger Bobby Ryan.

Which makes no sense at all.

There seems to be a feeling in Flyerdom that the club has to make a splash every summer, even if such makes little sense.

The Rangers traded for Rick Nash. Where does it say that the Flyers have to answer?

The Flyers don’t need Ryan. They needed Suter or Weber.

They don’t need 35 more goals as much as they need 35 less on the back end. Ryan (plus-1 this season) is not on par with other two-way defensive-conscious forwards such as Mike Richards, Claude Giroux or Sean Couturier. He won’t save them 35 goals.

Yeah, they’re centers and Ryan is not, but the point is: the Flyers still have a gaping hole on the blue line and Ryan isn’t going to fill it.

And if the cost of obtaining Ryan is to further weaken the blue line – Ducks GM Bob Murray reportedly wants defensive help – then such a trade makes even less sense.

That Holmgren tried so hard to get the best two defensemen out there is an acknowledgement by management that Chris Pronger will never play again in Philadelphia, not to mention that the team remains weaker without Carle.

As for the Rangers and Nash … The Rangers were a better team than the Flyers last season even without Nash. The Rangers need more scoring. The Flyers need less goals against.

The Rangers, from the blue line through goal, where Henrik Lundqvist virtually owned them last season, are stronger than the Flyers. What the Flyers have to do is match them somehow on the other side of the blue line.

There is no unrestricted defenseman left on the market anywhere near the caliber of Suter or Weber. Next year’s crop has a number of well-paid D-men who are/or will be, 35 or older, and one very good under-35 player in San Jose’s Douglas Murray.

The Flyers can’t wait an entire season to fix their blue line. Then again, given a lockout seems inevitable, they have plenty of time to still search for trade options because it’s doubtful the season begins in October, anyway.

At this point, the Flyers need to scale back a bit and strengthen their blue line without further depleting it via trading for a coveted forward

At this point I would have been fine with the Flyers overpaying for Carle...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let me start off by saying that I am not a fan of Pannacio and quite frankly cant stand the guy but I am in full agreement with this article. We need defense - plain and simple. As much as I like ryan he is nothing more than a luxury at this point. We need a dman even if it is a depth move for a 3-5 defensemen...

IMO, this defense is very suspect considering you have the following (in no particular order):

1. Kimmo - running out of gas

2. Grossman - concussion and knee issues

3. Mesz - coming off of a significant injury

4. Schenn - like the potential but looked incredibly lost in the defensive zone for the Laffs the past two seasons. Also, can not move the puck very well...

5. MAB - coming off a significant injury

6. Gus - time will tell & not proven

7. Manning - time will tell & not proven

8. Lilja - was too old 2 years ago...

9. Bruno - um... face it, he is just not that good.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

General manager Paul Holmgren openly admitted last week he’s never encountered a summer as frustrating as this one during his six-year tenure as Flyers general manager.

He hoped to re-sign Matt Carle, then lost the veteran defenseman to Tampa Bay.

He hoped his twin, $100-million-plus offers would entice Nashville D-man Ryan Suter and New Jersey forward Zach Parise to Philadelphia. He lost both to Minnesota.

He was counting heavily on his front-loaded, $110 million offer sheet to defenseman Shea Weber would be impossible for Nashville to match. But the Preds matched nonetheless.

Holmgren has taken an “0-for” this summer in free agency, as far as recruiting top-end talent is concerned.

His other deals that brought Luke Schenn (trade), Bruno Gervais and Ruslan Fedotenko (free agency) here are depth moves.

Holmgren made a valiant effort to move the heavens and failed. His frustration, however, has carried over to the fan base, which now wants more than ever to trade for Anaheim winger Bobby Ryan.

Which makes no sense at all.

There seems to be a feeling in Flyerdom that the club has to make a splash every summer, even if such makes little sense.

The Rangers traded for Rick Nash. Where does it say that the Flyers have to answer?

The Flyers don’t need Ryan. They needed Suter or Weber.

They don’t need 35 more goals as much as they need 35 less on the back end. Ryan (plus-1 this season) is not on par with other two-way defensive-conscious forwards such as Mike Richards, Claude Giroux or Sean Couturier. He won’t save them 35 goals.

Yeah, they’re centers and Ryan is not, but the point is: the Flyers still have a gaping hole on the blue line and Ryan isn’t going to fill it.

And if the cost of obtaining Ryan is to further weaken the blue line – Ducks GM Bob Murray reportedly wants defensive help – then such a trade makes even less sense.

That Holmgren tried so hard to get the best two defensemen out there is an acknowledgement by management that Chris Pronger will never play again in Philadelphia, not to mention that the team remains weaker without Carle.

As for the Rangers and Nash … The Rangers were a better team than the Flyers last season even without Nash. The Rangers need more scoring. The Flyers need less goals against.

The Rangers, from the blue line through goal, where Henrik Lundqvist virtually owned them last season, are stronger than the Flyers. What the Flyers have to do is match them somehow on the other side of the blue line.

There is no unrestricted defenseman left on the market anywhere near the caliber of Suter or Weber. Next year’s crop has a number of well-paid D-men who are/or will be, 35 or older, and one very good under-35 player in San Jose’s Douglas Murray.

The Flyers can’t wait an entire season to fix their blue line. Then again, given a lockout seems inevitable, they have plenty of time to still search for trade options because it’s doubtful the season begins in October, anyway.

At this point, the Flyers need to scale back a bit and strengthen their blue line without further depleting it via trading for a coveted forward

I don't see Coby on your list of dmen also...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@murraycraven Unless the Flyers score 5+ goals, we are not going to win very often. Totally healthy that D could be trouble, add in a few injuries and you have a write off year. Unless Bryz becomes magically consistant, I can see us missing the playoffs if a rash of injuries sneaks up on us. In a league where you must guard against the worst case scenario on defense, we have a handful of rookies and Walker and Lilja to fall back on...not good. Throw in the what very well could be the worst tandem in the NHL and WHAM...you have Homer unemployed and mass chaos in Flyerland. The offense simply can't make up for this mess. I'm all for giving a roster spot to a kid and breaking them in slowly, but if we have to depend on a handful of them, I'm not a happy camper.

Is it just my imagination or does Homer SUCK at filling in the 6 and 7 spots on defense? I GUARANTEE you Bruno Gervais will SUCK. If he can't even play for the Islanders, he has no business on the Flyers. This nonsense him getting caught up in a numbers game in NYI....are you kidding me right now!!?!?! He sat out 35 games, a healthy scratch for the lowly Isles....there is something wrong with Homer!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@murraycraven Unless the Flyers score 5+ goals, we are not going to win very often. Totally healthy that D could be trouble, add in a few injuries and you have a write off year. Unless Bryz becomes magically consistant, I can see us missing the playoffs if a rash of injuries sneaks up on us. In a league where you must guard against the worst case scenario on defense, we have a handful of rookies and Walker and Lilja to fall back on...not good. Throw in the what very well could be the worst tandem in the NHL and WHAM...you have Homer unemployed and mass chaos in Flyerland. The offense simply can't make up for this mess. I'm all for giving a roster spot to a kid and breaking them in slowly, but if we have to depend on a handful of them, I'm not a happy camper.

What team(s):

1) have a better 1-6 defense?

2) aren't an injury or two away from disaster?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Flyers D *always* looks good on paper, years and years of frustration have taught me, it does not translate to the ice. The names are well known, highly thought of even, but when push comes to shove, they fold like an accordion.

Most teams have a better veteran fall back than Lilja, Walker and Bruno friggin Gervais. So yes, most teams depth guys 6-8 are better than ours. Cody Fransen can't make the Leafs, but is better than our vet back ups....there is a BIG problem there.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Flyers D *always* looks good on paper, years and years of frustration have taught me, it does not translate to the ice. The names are well known, highly thought of even, but when push comes to shove, they fold like an accordion.

Most teams have a better veteran fall back than Lilja, Walker and Bruno friggin Gervais. So yes, most teams depth guys 6-8 are better than ours. Cody Fransen can't make the Leafs, but is better than our vet back ups....there is a BIG problem there.

OK, but - again - who else do you want? What do you offer Phoenix for Yandle? What FA do you sign?

What move makes this D unquestionably that much better that we don't need to worry about injury?

Other teams have better 6-8s? Most teams don't have such good 1-6s.

And the veteran 6-8s are the BIG problem?

I'll take that problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What team(s):

1) have a better 1-6 defense?

Where? In the Atlantic? In the East? In the entire league???

How about the Rangers for starters? I think the Devils D looked quite well, don't you agree? Boston's D is not bad... especially knowing that they have Dougie Hamilton warming up to make the roster. Florida's D, surprisingly, looked very formidable in the last year's playoffs. Looks like Kevin Deneen got them going in the right time.

What is it that gives you the confidence that the Flyers' defense will be fine next year?

Edited by Mad Dog
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Mad Dog One thing I've learnt over the years, big names do not equate to an elite d-corps. Does not matter how good they look on paper, it matters how they play as a group.

I'd take the Rangers D over ours any day of the week. Their #5 guy Strallman looked wicked in the playoffs. Not even talking about McDonough (most underrated player in the league), Stall, Girardi (another guy who does not get his just due), Del Zotto the young pp stud we don't have, and Sauer is a steady guy for a 6-7 guy. Even Bickell is a nice rough tough 7th d man who does not make many mistakes. Bickell got some decent ice time during the playoffs and rewarded Torts with some aggressive steady play. Their depth is better than ours and their top 4 is better than ours. I'd trade any member of our top 4 for any of the NYR top 4...any day of the week.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where? In the Atlantic? In the East? In the entire league???

How about the Rangers for starters? I think the Devils D looked quite well, don't you agree? Boston's D is not bad... especially knowing that they have Dougie Hamilton warming up to make the roster. Florida's D, surprisingly, looked very formidable in the last year's playoffs. Looks like Kevin Deneen got them going in the right time.

What is it that gives you the confidence that the Flyers' defense will be fine next year?

Yes, I mean the entire league. So the Flyers have the fourth-best defense in the East? Fifth?

Florida!? You're going to give me Brian Campbell and Ed Jovanovski? I can't even imagine what you would say if they were the 1/2 for the Flyers.

So I'll go with the concept that having a defense that's in the top third of the league isn't that bad.

@Mad Dog One thing I've learnt over the years, big names do not equate to an elite d-corps. Does not matter how good they look on paper, it matters how they play as a group.

I'd take the Rangers D over ours any day of the week. Their #5 guy Strallman looked wicked in the playoffs. Not even talking about McDonough (most underrated player in the league), Stall, Girardi (another guy who does not get his just due), Del Zotto the young pp stud we don't have, and Sauer is a steady guy for a 6-7 guy. Even Bickell is a nice rough tough 7th d man who does not make many mistakes. Bickell got some decent ice time during the playoffs and rewarded Torts with some aggressive steady play. Their depth is better than ours and their top 4 is better than ours. I'd trade any member of our top 4 for any of the NYR top 4...any day of the week.

I think you're both looking at the grass on the other side of the fence and thinking it's greener.

What happens if DelZotto goes down? What happens if they lose two top guys?

Stu Bickel? You're going to complain about the Flyers 6-7-8 guys and take Stu Bickel?

I think the Rangers D benefits most from having Henrik Lundqvist, who erases mistakes, and from you guys not watching 82 Rangers games. :-)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I watch a LOT of Rangers games. Enough to know, Bickell is better than Walker, Lilja or Bruno friggin Gervais. I hate to watch my goalies in fantasy hockey, but having Lundy makes it bearable. If Del Zotto goes down, they plug in Strallman and the guy is underrated enough...with a high enough skill level that they would not skip a beat. Stallman has better shot than any Flyer d-man, but due to the Rags depth, does not get much pp time. Most fans know Stall and Del Zotto cause they get the press and interviews, but fans that watch the Rags know Girardi and McDonough are just great all round d-men.

All the Rags needed was an elite scoring winger who can score timely goals when it really matters. Needless to say, that's not a pressing need anymore. The addition of Nash will no doubt help, but Kreider is gonna impress this year. He should be right in there for rookie of the year honors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Mad Dog One thing I've learnt over the years, big names do not equate to an elite d-corps. Does not matter how good they look on paper, it matters how they play as a group.

I'd take the Rangers D over ours any day of the week. Their #5 guy Strallman looked wicked in the playoffs. Not even talking about McDonough (most underrated player in the league), Stall, Girardi (another guy who does not get his just due), Del Zotto the young pp stud we don't have, and Sauer is a steady guy for a 6-7 guy. Even Bickell is a nice rough tough 7th d man who does not make many mistakes. Bickell got some decent ice time during the playoffs and rewarded Torts with some aggressive steady play. Their depth is better than ours and their top 4 is better than ours. I'd trade any member of our top 4 for any of the NYR top 4...any day of the week.

That may very well be jammer, but they have King Henry to cover their mistakes, a goalie who I would take over Bryz 8 days a week and twice on Sundays.......When your goalie is reliable, you can take chances, something not afforded to the Flyers Defense....... :wacko:

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you're both looking at the grass on the other side of the fence and thinking it's greener.

What happens if DelZotto goes down? What happens if they lose two top guys?

Fair enough.... although I am not assessing this from the position of 'what if somebody goes down'. I am looking at the current players, thinking these are the players who will play the entire season.

Further, I am not necessarily looking at names per se. Like Jammer noted - and I am paraphrasing - games are won on the ice. I lost count when the Flyers' roster looked as one of the most formidable in the league, only to go down in flames.

And using the same principal, I am not looking at "names" on the Florida D. All that matters to me is that they played essentially flawless D, which very much reminded me the old, oh-so-familiar Devils stifling type of defense. You seem to be overlooking that Florida was one of the better teams pretty much all season long and took the future Stanley Cup finalist to 7 games. And Game 7 was won on the OT goal by the Devils. So yes, I will say right here and right now that Florida defense is superior to the Flyers, and by a wide margin. It may be the team D that Dineen is using, but they are getting it done defensively. And that’s good enough for me.

Again, if looking purely, strictly from the roster standpoint, I don’t disagree that the Flyers top 6 look good. Not phenomenal – but OK. But you are looking the other way if you are choosing to ignore some issues:

1. Our top d-man is 37 year-old who not only has some serious mileage under him, but is coming back after surgery.

2. Grossman and Mezsaros are also coming back from serious injuries.

3.The team will likely throw a very unproven guy (MAB) into the role that he may not be quite ready for. This I am actually not complaining about, but rather stating that this is one of the potential impediments.

4. Nobody knows what to expect out of Luke Schenn. People here used to moan and complain unstoppably about JVR’s wasted potential and inconsistent work ethic. Well, based on everything we know so far, Luke has not necessarily set the world on fire in both of those departments, either.

Edited by Mad Dog
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The addition of Nash will no doubt help, but Kreider is gonna impress this year. He should be right in there for rookie of the year honors.

I am afraid you are right. I think Chris Kreider has a very bright future. If someone watched him shoot the puck last year, they would never guess this is a shot that belongs to a 21-year old. No wonder many scouts *already* compare his shot to a shot of Lidstrom. I also like his composure in tight spots when the Rangers gave him an oportunity to shine. He learned quickly how to move his feet and become positionally responsible.

Once he perfects the ability to get in on the forecheck, Kreider has a chance to become one of the top 5 d-men in the league. The only obsticle he has right now is the Ranger's depth at the D.... good problems to have.

Edited by Mad Dog
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...