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Is This Fantacy Hockey?


Guest idahophilly
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So, I have been thinking on why so many hockey fans from all teams always say "Oh, that's the best player. Let's go get him"... Only to be disappointed for 5 minuts and then go "oh, that guy over there is the best player now. Let's go get him". Disappoint soon follows. And this goes on and on. First it was Suter, then Weber and now Ryan or Doan. Irish mentions this briefly in one of his blogs.

And each time the price keeps going UP for less talent. Suter was cheaper and a lesser talant than Weber but the return on the added cost of Weber over Suter made Suter more desirable. Then when those two became unavailble it seemes like now many are just grabbing at anything they can get, like some hockey junky.

What am I getting at. Everyone of these players would cripple us cap wise except Ryan (which I'll get to soon). We have 3.5 million in cap space. We can't use Pronger's LTIR UNTIL the season starts and the 10% overage allowance for summer has to be gone BEFORE the season starts. Where are we gonna fit Doans 7.5 million in? And lets say we do and Homer makes a couple of small moves (Shelly waived ?) we might have a million give or take left... Not much room.

But lets make the argument that he could and Homer was inclined to do so. We can even get rid of Timmo's cap next summer which that money will no doubt go to his replacement. But having a 7.5 million Doan/Weber/Suter on the books cripples us the following summer when we need to sign Giroux to a MASSIVE contract. Read, Schenn, Coots and who knows who else from last years rookie crop will be right around the corner from their huge raises. It's almost completly clear we won't be able to keep them all if they keep playing and improving.

As far as Ryan goes: less of a cap situation because we would be giving up 2 really good players and their salaries(which combined will likely out score Ryan) ,Laughton and Picks. And as a bonus, we lose more flexability in our lines. Does that REALLY sound good? Maybe to you but not to me...

And don't we have enough huge contracts already? Seems most complain about them but want to hand them out with out thinking through the cap this year but much less a few years out (never mind the new CBA ramifications). Maybe Homer has learned what we have preached all along. Win by committee, not 3-4 big contracts.

We are in a really good spot and I would hate to see Homer be like many fans and be reactionary. But alas, Homer isn't playing fantacy hockey. He lives in a world where a real salary cap exists, where contract lengths matter and where NMC/NTC are nearly demanded. Who says you can't teach old dogs new tricks?

(now that I said this Homer will trade for Ryan tomorrow and sign Doan)

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The only way we should reach for a guy that puts us into cap hell would be for a necessity (ie d-man) not a luxury (ie forward). Any forward acquisition that's not a UFA would be a lateral move, and as you mentioned, potentially screw us in tying up our big guns/core players long term.

I really hate when people suggest unloading our misfits and depth players for legit stars, it's a total waste of time. People act like other teams GM's are tools and don't have respectable scouts. If we know a players weakness, you can be damn sure other GM's know about it. There is only one Scott Howsen out there.....LOL!

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I really hate when people suggest unloading our misfits and depth players for legit stars, it's a total waste of time. People act like other teams GM's are tools and don't have respectable scouts. If we know a players weakness, you can be damn sure other GM's know about it. There is only one Scott Howsen out there.....LOL!

Not only that, @jammer2, but we as fans often overstate a player's weaknesses when he becomes the whipping boy, and exaggerate the strengths of the latest golden child (Giroux is an exception to this rule because, let's face it, he IS the Golden Child!).

Richards was a whipping boy for a while. His off-ice stuff was distracting (the big Media Freezeout, party pictures surfacing, etc), for sure. But then it grew to be that he hates working out, he's out of shape, he's not 'trying', etc. Dude is one of the best 2-way forwards in the league!

Same thing with Carter and JVR.

I like Voracek a helluva lot more than JVR, but why? He hasn't developed any faster or really outpaced JVR in terms of points and production. I think it's because I grew tired of watching JVR night in and night out coasting around half the time, and skating really fast with no focus the rest of the time. Every once in a while, you'd see a flash of talent. The same could be said for Voracek, though... he skates like the wind, makes pretty moves, but often lacks finish. I guess the biggest difference that I've seen is that Voracek has a better defensive game than JVR.

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@idahophilly

Nice post.

I think Flyer management has infected this whole philosyphylis upon it's fans. For the last few decades they have always tried to buy the best players out there. Whether it's Jeremy Roenick, Danny Briere or Ilya Bryzgalov they've always thrown huge money at players. If they're not doing that, they're trading bundles of players/picks for Lindros or Pronger or Oates. They rarely seem patient enough to just draft and see what happens.It's kept the team competitive, but never won us a cup. Ever.

Meanwhile, how excited are fans about Giroux, Couturier, Voracek, Schenn, Read etc? Watching these young guys develop may be a bit of a rough ride sometimes, but at least theres light at the end of the tunnel. Personally, I'd much rather watch the above mentioned players become better and better and eventually reach their prime than watch Roenick, Briere and Bryzgalov slowly disintigrate. Some not so slowly.

I admit I was all for Weber. He's exactly what we needed, and is just entering his prime. But I never wanted Suter, I don't want Ryan, have lost all interest in Doan since I started hearing 4 years and $7 mil. I was totally against Pronger/Briere/Bryzgalov. I don't know how many times I've pointed out how well Holmgren drafts in the first round, why the heck trade those picks away? I know Briere has had some nice playoffs. He's yet to win us a cup, and we have 3 more years of him. And he's not getting younger. Pronger ended up a bust and so far so is Bryz.

Hey, I'm all for taking a shot once you have a good team with plenty of up and comers on the farm and you're one player away...but trading multiple picks and young players for a couple years of some guy on his way out is a losers game. And this craziness of going after the hi-end FAs every single year has to stop too. Once in awhile, ok. But it shouldn't be how your team is built. Ask the Leafs.

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@idahophilly

Nice post.

I think Flyer management has infected this whole philosyphylis upon it's fans. For the last few decades they have always tried to buy the best players out there. Whether it's Jeremy Roenick, Danny Briere or Ilya Bryzgalov they've always thrown huge money at players. If they're not doing that, they're trading bundles of players/picks for Lindros or Pronger or Oates. They rarely seem patient enough to just draft and see what happens.It's kept the team competitive, but never won us a cup. Ever.

Meanwhile, how excited are fans about Giroux, Couturier, Voracek, Schenn, Read etc? Watching these young guys develop may be a bit of a rough ride sometimes, but at least theres light at the end of the tunnel. Personally, I'd much rather watch the above mentioned players become better and better and eventually reach their prime than watch Roenick, Briere and Bryzgalov slowly disintigrate. Some not so slowly.

I admit I was all for Weber. He's exactly what we needed, and is just entering his prime. But I never wanted Suter, I don't want Ryan, have lost all interest in Doan since I started hearing 4 years and $7 mil. I was totally against Pronger/Briere/Bryzgalov. I don't know how many times I've pointed out how well Holmgren drafts in the first round, why the heck trade those picks away? I know Briere has had some nice playoffs. He's yet to win us a cup, and we have 3 more years of him. And he's not getting younger. Pronger ended up a bust and so far so is Bryz.

Hey, I'm all for taking a shot once you have a good team with plenty of up and comers on the farm and you're one player away...but trading multiple picks and young players for a couple years of some guy on his way out is a losers game. And this craziness of going after the hi-end FAs every single year has to stop too. Once in awhile, ok. But it shouldn't be how your team is built. Ask the Leafs.

All good points, @flyercanuck.

But let me ask you this: would you be ok, as a fan, to see the team be on the playoff bubble for a few years, maybe even miss the playoffs, in the name of developing our players?

I probably would be, but I think maybe that's their mindset... they always put the Flyers in a position to compete, if not win it all. They've given us some exciting teams and some exciting hockey despite the lack of Cups. Would you rather have the Pittsburgh model of sucking for 5 years, stocking up on #1 draft picks, and then have a Stanley Cup to show for it?

I remember those pre-Lindros years when we missed the playoffs like 4-5 years in a row. It was pretty dreadful to watch. And remember a few years ago when we finished dead last???? Imagine sitting through that for 3-4 years!! Yuck!!

I agree, Homer/Flyers might go over the top every once in a while, and the moves don't always pan out, but a lot of them do.

I guess I'm somewhere on the fence of loving the bold moves, but not liking the lack of planning sometimes.

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I remember those pre-Lindros years when we missed the playoffs like 4-5 years in a row. It was pretty dreadful to watch. And remember a few years ago when we finished dead last???? Imagine sitting through that for 3-4 years!! Yuck!!

The real problem in that era was that the Flyers were not only sucking, but also not developing anybody. They were just a moribund franchise for a period.

Nobody wants that.

And I'll reiterate a point from another thread: I don't want a team that's good enough to "compete" for the Stanley Cup, I want a team that's good enough to WIN the bloody thing.

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Bre-it's nice to be competetive all the time. Or most of it I should say. But after a few decades of "being competetive" but never winning, the novelty wears off. Sure the year we ended up last sucked. So did the draft that followed. That's just bad luck.So we went out and got Briere, Prospal, Eminger, Pronger etc. The quick fix. And we're back to being competetive. Never won us a cup. We've got a breaking down Briere to show for it. We could have sucked another year and had Stamkos, or Doughty or Pietrangelo or Myers or Karlsson. Plus Carlson. Sbisa. Plus whatever else Holmgren could have grabbed with those 1sts and 2nds. Instead we have Prongers contract. And the bad taste Eminger left. On the flip side, how did you feel about getting Coburn for Zhitnik? Couturier and Voracek and Cousins for Crater? I'm still on the fence about Richards for Schenn and Simmonds, but we've got a long time for that one to work in our favour.

I'd have had no problem with a rebuild. I said it back then. I still say it now.

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We could have sucked another year and had Stamkos, or Doughty or Pietrangelo or Myers or Karlsson. Plus Carlson. Sbisa. Plus whatever else Holmgren could have grabbed with those 1sts and 2nds. Instead we have Prongers contract. And the bad taste Eminger left.

You are absolutely right. But I have enormous respect for the Flyers management deciding not to go that route. It's part of the mentality and culture of the Flyers always fielding a competitive team and not choosing to not spend money in order to field a less competitive team and end up with a high draft pick.

It's so easy to be on the losing side for 5 years and end up with 3, 4 or 5 top 5 draft pick players. Like the Oilers and the Pens. The Oilers are going to completely dominate the NHL for years to come with the talent they picked up by sucking for years in a row. I do not want that for the Flyers. I do not want to support a team that gets good simply due to drafting in the top 5 every year.

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@ctid

You don't have to do it 4 or 5 years. Heck ONE more year and we could have had our choice of players I mentioned. Picture Briere 3 years from now. Now picture Drew Doughty, or Alex Piterangelo, or Tyler Myers or Erik Karlsson. We wouldn't have had to end last for any of them. And they are EXACTLY what we need and are willing to give up a wack of 1st round picks and huge contracts for. Meanwhile with a year of patience we could have had our choice of ANY of them for ONE pick.

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is it fantasy hockey on the board? or in philly management? i'm not sure who the question is directed to. here.. yes, it is fantasy because that's part of the fun of a forum like this. it's fun for us fans to keep thinking and tinkering with ideas.

is flyer management acting like it's fantasy? well, i guess i could see how it might look like that with their outrageous offers to every FA out there. but, i think that's just on the surface. i really think there is was a grand scheme in place. and don't rule out that a lot of those huge offers weren't huge bluffs designed to drive up the price for competitors. the flyers probably had a very good idea what was realistic. i think the weber move proved that they are very shrewd when it comes to stacking the deck.

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And I'll reiterate a point from another thread: I don't want a team that's good enough to "compete" for the Stanley Cup, I want a team that's good enough to WIN the bloody thing.

Bre-it's nice to be competetive all the time. Or most of it I should say. But after a few decades of "being competetive" but never winning, the novelty wears off. Sure the year we ended up last sucked. So did the draft that followed. That's just bad luck.So we went out and got Briere, Prospal, Eminger, Pronger etc. The quick fix. And we're back to being competetive. Never won us a cup.

The 2010 Stanley Cup should have our name on it. That was the most exciting Flyers playoff run I've ever watched (because I wasn't alive when we last won the Cup). They came up oh so short, but man, that should have been theirs with slightly better goaltending. Nothing you do will guarantee you a Cup. Pittsburgh built through the draft, but they built it with FOUR TOP 2 PICKS in a row!! Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Staal, three of which I would consider franchise players.

But all the other teams that don't quite finish last and benefit from that insane kind of draft run, end up somewhere in the middle are no fun to watch and have long up and down spells. Leafs, Habs, Panthers, Isles, Sabres, Flames, Canes, Lightning, Preds, Jets, etc.

Now, if you're talking a more Detroit based model, then fine. But they also throw money at high priced UFAs - Hossa, Stuart, and this year they tried to get both Suter and Parise. They don't seem to shake up their team as much as the Flyers, and maybe there's something to that. Their scouting is incredible, and they've usually done very well with average goaltending.

I guess I'm saying that, probably more often than most teams, the Flyers have a realistic chance of winning the Cup even if the results don't bear that out ;)

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It is frustrating to watch the drought year after year but I just wouldn't want to either be one of those middle of the pack teams or suck all the time like Edmonton or the Islanders. Yes they have lots of good players but you would think the Islanders would be better by now and they are not. Seems the supporting cast sucks. All the more reason not to trade ours away...

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@Bakanekimiwa "i really think there is was a grand scheme in place."

I dunno about that. It's becoming more and more obvious that Homer is just flying by the seat of his pants and does not have a grand master scheme for the Flyers.

i don't think so, but there's no way to really know who's right. mistakes can be excused as well as brilliant moves. even a stopped clock is right twice a day so if homer is a buffoon he's bound to get it right once in awhile. i just feel that homer is going for the cup. i feel that we're gonna get there in the next few years. well, i hope so. maybe that's the glass half full.

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@Bakanekimiwa It just seems like he straddles this "all in" mentality (ie pronger deal) to "youth movement/building through the draft" (ie Carter and Richards deal) to big name free agent acquisitions (ie Praise, Suter etc). Which is it??....why not pick a direction and go with it, not all wishy washy it's convenient to do this deal right now, so damn the other direction....it's frustrating. There is no long term plan that I can see....it's what you can do right now, which is not always the best direction to take a franchise. Is there long term planning to secure the teams core when offering Doan a 4 year deal, which is rumored to be on the table.....I don't think so....but he *can* do it now, so off we go in another direction, back to "all in"....LOL!

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well, i'm sure there is pressure from his boss. yup, Mr. Snider. we all know how that is too. you *have* to appease them to some extent. i think, for the most part, the moves homer has made are toward 'building' a team. he traded richards and carter for prospects and picks. we have a good young team. the problems arise when there's deficiencies that it would seem a big FA signing would cure. the goalie deal last year... i'm sure snider pressured his hand there. but, it *was* sorely needing to be addressed. was it the right move? well, not so far, but who knows.

if we got weber, again... they would have been geniuses. it didn't work out, but they *had* to try. you know what though? they could have had weber. if they were willing to part with one of our promising young talents. they weren't! even for weber, they held on to our future.

so, that right there, tells me there is a plan. of course they are going to try to improve at every opportunity, but i don't have the feeling that it's whichever way the wind blows.

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@Bakanekimiwa Yep, none of us were in the room, but most of us have come to the conclusion that Snider forced Homer's hand with the Bryz deal. Ed even said "this will never happen again" in reference to the 3 ring circus we had in net for the 2010 playoffs. It's retrospect, but if Homer was going to deal Carter AND Richards, one of them should have been the major piece in acquiring a goalie by trade. Build from the net out I always say. It was getting greedy getting all forwards back in those deals. At some point you have to bite the bullet and PAY out the nose for a tender.

Again retrospect, but what did Bryz ever really do in the playoffs? Again, I was not there, but why did no other team want Bryz....at least that was my theory, they threw BIG money at him and the only bidding war was in their heads. He did not produce long enough to demand that kinda money. I blame the scouts for not knowing Bryz's stats were directly tied into Tippet's excellent system in Phoenix. It would be like handing Elliott on the Blues 50 mill based on his wicked stats with St.Louis. Again, another goalie who is strictly a product of his system. Our scouts should have spotted this a MILE away!!! Did they not watch the film, did they not see the fundamental flaws??? Did these tools hand out 50 mill without doing their homework????

Sorry for getting off topic, but I got on a roll and had to VENT!! ha ha. Having said all this, I was happy about getting Bryz, which I am quite ashamed of now. I really thought we solved the problem....DOH!! I obviously never saw enough Phoenix games to know he was crapola!!

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I blame the scouts for not knowing Bryz's stats were directly tied into Tippet's excellent system in Phoenix. It would be like handing Elliott on the Blues 50 mill based on his wicked stats with St.Louis. Again, another goalie who is strictly a product of his system. Our scouts should have spotted this a MILE away!!! Did they not watch the film, did they not see the fundamental flaws??? Did these tools hand out 50 mill without doing their homework????

Mike Smith had by far his best season statistically (2.21, .930, and 1.99, .944 in playoffs) in Phoenix this year under Tippett as Bryz's replacement. The only other year he comes remotely close to those numbers was back in 2006-07 in Dallas.

I'll give you one guess for who coached Dallas in 2006-07.

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@jammer2

"Blame the scouts"?

You think this decision made by Ed Snider got VETTED by ANYONE?

Put your analyst on danger money, baby.

Flyers are committed to the run and gun, up-tempo style of Laviolette. They just extended him.

How many goalies are going to do better than 2.48/.909 behind that style?

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@jammer2

"Flyers are committed to the run and gun, up-tempo style of Laviolette. They just extended him.

How many goalies are going to do better than 2.48/.909 behind that style?

I don't know...maybe one that has lateral movement, can handle the puck and looks like he's played the position professionally before?

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I don't know...maybe one that has lateral movement, can handle the puck and looks like he's played the position professionally before?

So, you don't actually have an answer - because you know that any goalie can be exposed by this sort of system.

Would I like Bryz to be better? Sure. But I didn't give him the nine-year, NMC deal. The Flyers did.

And I'm not the one deciding to play the run-and-gun, up-tempo system in front of him. Laviolette is.

And, the salient point remains - it wasn't "the scouts" who blew this call. It was Ed Snider. Call it as it is.

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The run and gun is fun. But it's not going to win us a cup. Especially with a D that's going to limp out of the gate and Bryzaster in net.

I admit nobody is lining up to give us their quality netminder. I agree we're stuck with a guy who looks like he's never played the position for one month, then looks like a top ten goalie the next...repeat. I know Snider, somehow, thought this wackjob would actually stabilize a position that hasn't been for decades. And I didn't agree with it from day 1. And I still don't...

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The run and gun is fun. But it's not going to win us a cup. Especially with a D that's going to limp out of the gate and Bryzaster in net.

I admit nobody is lining up to give us their quality netminder. I agree we're stuck with a guy who looks like he's never played the position for one month, then looks like a top ten goalie the next...repeat. I know Snider, somehow, thought this wackjob would actually stabilize a position that hasn't been for decades. And I didn't agree with it from day 1. And I still don't...

See? we don't disagree as often as you might think :P

As always, when faced with the half full glass, I add ice :ph34r:

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