Fyers have traded a staggering number of first round players, just about all -list below

[brelic]

This is one acquisition which didn't make ANY sense for the Flyers in the off-season where Homer otherwise didn't do so bad. His non-moves are the ones which actually made me very happy (Voracek, Couturer, MAB, B Schenn.... are still with them team).

This one........No logic at all. When you have MAB and Gustuvson waiting to make the team, he brings this stiff into the system........Mindboggling.

I think he was preparing for the loss of Carle, and perhaps giving up a d-man in a trade. But I agree, it is a very strange acquisition.

[Polaris922]

This is one acquisition which didn't make ANY sense for the Flyers in the off-season where Homer otherwise didn't do so bad. His non-moves are the ones which actually made me very happy (Voracek, Couturer, MAB, B Schenn.... are still with them team).

This one........No logic at all. When you have MAB and Gustuvson waiting to make the team, he brings this stiff into the system........Mindboggling.

. And it's a bad sign for you Flyers fans when we Pens fans cheer the acquisition

[RonJeremy]

@maddog ,dont forget we gave LA a second rounder to take Gauthier after we traded Williams for him. So we basically gave up Williams and a second rounder to have Gauthier for one year...

[radoran]

@maddog ,dont forget we gave LA a second rounder to take Gauthier after we traded Williams for him. So we basically gave up Williams and a second rounder to have Gauthier for one year...

http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/trade.cgi

They traded Williams for Danny Markov who they didn't re-sign be because he was going back to Russia - after two more years in the league.

They got Gauthier for John Gratton and a couple of second rounders.

And don't forget they also got Patrick Hersley + Ned Lukacevic in the Gauthier to LA deal...

Really, Gauthier is pretty much a wash, but they gave away Williams for 52 games (18 playoffs) of Danny Markov.

We could talk about the 1996 1st they traded away for Pat Falloon, though. That turned into Daniel Briere.

Falloon, of course, had to be packaged with *another* first - Vaclav Prospal - to get Alexandre Daigle. No, really.

They eventually turned those two 1st round picks into Adam Burt by way of Andrei Kovalenko.

They are quite convinced they have almost caught the dragon, though...

[brelic]

http://www.flyershis...i-bin/trade.cgi

They traded Williams for Danny Markov who they didn't re-sign be because he was going back to Russia - after two more years in the league.

They got Gauthier for John Gratton and a couple of second rounders.

And don't forget they also got Patrick Hersley + Ned Lukacevic in the Gauthier to LA deal...

Really, Gauthier is pretty much a wash, but they gave away Williams for 52 games (18 playoffs) of Danny Markov.

We could talk about the 1996 1st they traded away for Pat Falloon, though. That turned into Daniel Briere.

Falloon, of course, had to be packaged with *another* first - Vaclav Prospal - to get Alexandre Daigle. No, really.

They eventually turned those two 1st round picks into Adam Burt by way of Andrei Kovalenko.

They are quite convinced they have almost caught the dragon, though...

Sheesh, when you put it that way, it *almost* seems like they don't know what they're doing...

[wcflyer]

"Homer flat out sucks at cap managment. They should have a Asst.GM take care of this part of the GM'ing, and let Homer do the draft only."

@ jammer

Not defending Homer in anyway of Gervais move, but I thought I read an article somewhere that the Flyers do have a cap manager and Homer refer's to him with trades/signings.

[radoran]

Sheesh, when you put it that way, it *almost* seems like they don't know what they're doing...

Take away the monetary ability to cover up mistakes and its hard to argue they're that much better than Howson.

They flushed $5.1M away with Walker - on top of losing Gagne.

It was three first rounders for the right to pay Pronger $19.8M over the next five years with an annual $4.9M cap hit.

Almost gave up four more to pay Shea Weber $27M in the next calendar year.

Well, at least they've learned from their mistakes.

How many firsts should we add into the Ryan deal? Maybe include some players we traded first round picks for?

[TedZep]

I read the topic title too quickly, thought this was going to be a list of current Flyers drafted in the 1st round.

Flyers on current roster drafted in Round 1:

DANNY BRIERE

SEAN COUTURIER

CLAUDE GIROUX

SCOTT HARTNELL

BRAYDEN SCHENN

JAKUB VORACEK

BRAYDON COBURN

ANDREJ MESZAROS

CHRIS PRONGER

LUKE SCHENN

Flyers picked two of those players, acquired the rest. Need better scouting, drafting, or player development.

That's what I was going to look for, thanks for saving me the time. As much as the Flyers have traded away, they have also traded for, pretty much the same as most teams.

[Mad Dog]

It was three first rounders for the right to pay Pronger $19.8M over the next five years with an annual $4.9M cap hit.

I partially absolve them for Pronger. At the time, the Flyers desperately needed a quality d-man and a decent mentor/leader. They could not continue with what they had. I didn't like the move when it was just announced, and at that time I also thought Sbisa was a heavy price to pay... but Pronger did not disappoint when he came over. And he was sensational in that nice playoff run. What happened to him last year was a freaky thing that nobody could possibly foresee. I am not sure whether commiting to such a lofty sum of cap space could've been avoided, but again, market drives prices, unfortunately.

I also don't blame Homer for the Weber move. Weber is the best defenseman in the league, if not the entire world. If there was any palyer to spend so much money on, Weber is it.

But the Gagne - Walker mess was inexcusable.

[Philly29]

@Mad Dog I'd honestly rather have "BEHOLD RANDY" back than this lame pick up!!!

Is Gervais really that bad Jammer? I have never paid attention to his play...I hope you guys are wrong about him this year...fxck! Edited August 4, 2012 by Philly29

[Vanflyer]

Falloon, of course, had to be packaged with *another* first - Vaclav Prospal - to get Alexandre Daigle. No, really.

Clarke at his all time best. I have to wonder if it was his poor scouting department (as it seems the last decade that areas has been completely revamped) or what.

The Emminger trade was just as bad as the Falloon trade if not worse.

[radoran]

I partially absolve them for Pronger. At the time, the Flyers desperately needed a quality d-man and a decent mentor/leader. They could not continue with what they had. I didn't like the move when it was just announced, and at that time I also thought Sbisa was a heavy price to pay... but Pronger did not disappoint when he came over. And he was sensational in that nice playoff run. What happened to him last year was a freaky thing that nobody could possibly foresee. I am not sure whether commiting to such a lofty sum of cap space could've been avoided, but again, market drives prices, unfortunately.

I also don't blame Homer for the Weber move. Weber is the best defenseman in the league, if not the entire world. If there was any palyer to spend so much money on, Weber is it.

But the Gagne - Walker mess was inexcusable.

The problem is that you can generally find "reasons" to make the moves they make - if you start from the assumption that they should be making moves. They "needed D to make a run," so they traded Williams for Markov. Cap problems forced the Gagne move. Pronger was the defensive piece they needed to fill out the team. Weber wold have been the defensive piece they needed to fill out the team (three years later).

I'm not against trades or offer sheets in any way - and I don't disagree with all or even most of the moves - but to really "develop" three first round picks over the course of 33 years (which is what the above represents) and move picks and players to "compete" for a Stanley Cup hasn't really gotten them anywhere.

And yet, in the past few years, we've seen them put seven MORE picks on the table - with three leaving.

Might they have done better in the long term if they'd kept their own players instead of reaching for Falloons and Daigles. It's rampant speculation - of the type I prefer to, say, the "how can we trade a guy with an NMC and get top value for him" variety. For me, the Flyers undervalue their picks and covet others. From the moment Pitkanen stepped on the ice, he wasn't Jay Bouwmeester. Justin Williams dealt for a rental at the deadline. Patrick Sharp sent off for a pile of dingo's kidneys. Dennis Seidenberg for Petr "Shutdown Center" Nedved. Those last three guys are on the Cup.

My point of them turning Danny Briere and Vaclav Prospal into Adam Burt isn't that they would have developed Briere any more than Phoenix did - but that philosophy of "chasing the dragon" over developing players hasn't produced the results they want. *If* those results are to WIN a Stanley Cup.

And, for all intents and purposes, we've basically had the same braintrust running the organization for the past two decades.

[Vanflyer]

The problem is that you can generally find "reasons" to make the moves they make - if you start from the assumption that they should be making moves. They "needed D to make a run," so they traded Williams for Markov. Cap problems forced the Gagne move. Pronger was the defensive piece they needed to fill out the team. Weber wold have been the defensive piece they needed to fill out the team (three years later).

I'm not against trades or offer sheets in any way - and I don't disagree with all or even most of the moves - but to really "develop" three first round picks over the course of 33 years (which is what the above represents) and move picks and players to "compete" for a Stanley Cup hasn't really gotten them anywhere.

And yet, in the past few years, we've seen them put seven MORE picks on the table - with three leaving.

Might they have done better in the long term if they'd kept their own players instead of reaching for Falloons and Daigles. It's rampant speculation - of the type I prefer to, say, the "how can we trade a guy with an NMC and get top value for him" variety. For me, the Flyers undervalue their picks and covet others. From the moment Pitkanen stepped on the ice, he wasn't Jay Bouwmeester. Justin Williams dealt for a rental at the deadline. Patrick Sharp sent off for a pile of dingo's kidneys. Dennis Seidenberg for Petr "Shutdown Center" Nedved. Those last three guys are on the Cup.

My point of them turning Danny Briere and Vaclav Prospal into Adam Burt isn't that they would have developed Briere any more than Phoenix did - but that philosophy of "chasing the dragon" over developing players hasn't produced the results they want. *If* those results are to WIN a Stanley Cup.

And, for all intents and purposes, we've basically had the same braintrust running the organization for the past two decades.

Your points are good somewhat, but overall it is very subjective (the thread overall).

I mean lets look at some of these:

1) Behn Wilson got us Doug Crossman and Scott Mellanby. Win.

2) Ken Linseman + a first got us Mark Howe and Derrick Smith. Win.

3) Ron Suter got us Rod Brind'AMour and Dan Quinn. Win.

4) Brian Boucher got us Michael Handzus & Robert Esche. Win

5) Dainus Zubrus got us Recchi back again. Win.

6) Joni Pitkanen for Jason Smith and Joffrey Lupul. Win.

7) Jeff Carter for Jakub Vorecek and Sean Couturier. Win.

8) Steve Downie for Matt Carle and 3rd round pick. Win.

9) Two first round picks for Chris Pronger. 2009 John Moore 2010 Emerson Eten. This is a hard one for me, but for what Pronger brought to the team, its a win. Moore is too young of a defensemen yet to judge (and would not have helped the Flyers in the immediate). Eten is highly regarded, but still playing juniors (as a 20 year old). Flyers Win- only because most said that Prongers knees were going to be his demise. His injury was a complete fluke.

There were a bunch of neutrals I had as well. So, out of 34 #1 picks, I have listed 10 (pronger is 2 picks) where we have won (imho). A near 33% success rate. Truth be told, given where the Flyers tend to pick (last third of the pack), the chances of that particular pick having significant NHL success are about that, if not less. Go look at the last third of the drafts for the same time span. My point is it is a crap shoot beyond the top 10 most of the time. In fact, I could put a list together of more 2nd round picks by the Flyers over the same duration that had significant impact to the team. No snickers from the peanut crowd that want to laugh at Homers pension for trading 2nd rounders.

[Podein25]

@Vanflyer - don't forget we also gave up Sbisa in the Pronger deal. In all, it was too much to give up in my opinion.

[idahophilly]

What happened to him last year was a freaky thing that nobody could possibly foresee. I am not sure whether commiting to such a lofty sum of cap space could've been avoided, but again, market drives prices, unfortunately.

I agree... Hindsight is always 20/20. Who could have seen the other players stick riding up Pronger's a scoring a bulls eye in the eye! And considering what players are getting in the RFA/UFA market this year, a cap hit of 4.9 really isn't that bad. The only mis-calculation, and a sizable one, was the over 35 contract. But has anyone really proven that Homer DIDN'T know about that? Unless I missed something i suppose...

[RonJeremy]

@Vanflyer- I see you did a good job on your list of what we got in all our trades, but my biggest beef with Flyer management is that we really dont do a good job to develop players properly or give them enough time . We also are horrible with drafting dmen and goalies, We have only drafted a handful of dmen who turned out good. Our only good goalies were Pelle and Hexy.

Behn Wilson was the most talented dman we ever drafted, . He could skate , shoot, hit, stickhandle, score and was the best fighter we ever had. He should have been a hall of famer with that talent. He was Scott Stevens with offensive skill. He had a phenomenal rookie year, and should have progressed from there. You can blame Wilson and say he was not coachable or had an attitude, but we also had Niinima and Pitkanen who started out looking great and then turned to crap and were traded. So I have to blame our coaching staff. Maybe we need to hire an assistant who can really work with our dmen.

JVR was the latest guy to go, he has top notch skill, and i know we needed defense, so this is a tough one, but then again, if we could ever draft a good dman, JVR wouldnt have had to go.

One draft I look back on is, when we took Carter and Richards.. we passed up Glen Seabrooke, Zac Parise, Dustin Brown, Ryan Getzlaf and Corey Perry..... Brown, Perry and Getzlaf are old time Flyer types, tough hard hitters, and we passed on them for a one dimensional softie like Carter, because we got skated into the ice by Ottawa and Buffalo in the playoffs and decide to go for more pure offense. I always like Richards and he was for sure a FLYER type of guy. Im just wondering, had we taken 2 of these other guys would we have traded them as well? Did Carts and Richards really have a character problem, or is Flyer management the real problem?

Of course another killer was trading a first for Emminger who was not even a starter and was not in the Caps long term plans, but again we needed immediate help on defense, since we lost 2 guys that offseason and Homer overpaid in a big way, and the Caps took Carlson, who will be a great dman. Again, why didnt our scouts/management notice Carlsons ability, and Emmingers lack of and talk Homer out of it. I would really like to see us finally draft a good dman who turns into an all star

[Vanflyer]

@Vanflyer - don't forget we also gave up Sbisa in the Pronger deal. In all, it was too much to give up in my opinion.

I did not. I will still stand by my point that he (Sbisa) was not going to help in the immediate. As a total package- I agree it is hard to look at. We could have two 5/6 d-men and one 2nd line winger. But I would still do that move. None of those players are doing anything of consequence for Anaheim today.

[Podein25]

...not going to help in the immediate

No offense @Vanflyer, but using that logic, virtually every trade would look good, even ones that completely mortgage the future. How is that a good thing for building a team that is capable of competing every year?

[jammer2]

@Vanflyer Sbisa does a lot of things that don't show up in the game summaries. Pretty sure he's in the top 10 (or close to it) in hits, has really nice wheels and is starting to be a fine d-man positionally. He's steadily getting better. You could tell he loved to hit when we had him, not a huge guy, but uses his leverage to his advantage. He's gonna be a good one.

[Vanflyer]

No offense @Vanflyer, but using that logic, virtually every trade would look good, even ones that completely mortgage the future. How is that a good thing for building a team that is capable of competing every year?

No offense taken. It is just perspective. At the end of the day, my opinion is that it is a path. Lets look at teams like Columbus (cough), Edmonton or even Pittsburgh. All of which build their teams via the draft and UFA and seldom relinquish first round picks (okay, not good examples since Nash and Stall have moved), but you get my point overall for the past 35 years.

The debate is whether you want to have a competitive team every year that might strike lightning (see 2004 or 2010) or one that sucks for 5 or more years then has some good players that might strike lightning (see Pitts- they only won one cup with arguably two of the best players in the world).

[Vanflyer]

@Vanflyer Sbisa does a lot of things that don't show up in the game summaries. Pretty sure he's in the top 10 (or close to it) in hits, has really nice wheels and is starting to be a fine d-man positionally. He's steadily getting better. You could tell he loved to hit when we had him, not a huge guy, but uses his leverage to his advantage. He's gonna be a good one.

Your points are well taken- particularly the hits. He is also a very good shot blocker.

For me, there are a couple of things on the minus side:

1) He takes himself out of the play allot in hitting or trying to make a hit and leaves his partner hanging out to dry.

2) While being such a big hitter, most of his penalties are of the obstruction variety. With his skating skill, that is BS to me.

You might laugh, but I think MAB will be the better d-man overall. When I see Sbisa, I always think he should be a forward (the same way I think of Subban).

[jammer2]

@Vanflyer I'm not laughing at all, I also think MAB will be a better overall d-man. I think he has higher offensive upside and while he may not hit as frequently, he hit's harder. I really, really like MAB and think he will be a Flyer for a decade.

[bryanc]

i was just think about how the Flyers constantly trade away their first round draft picks after a very short time period and only a handful have lasted with the team for a long stretch.. some guys we kept until they were in their late 20's and then moved for young players or picks, but for the most part we traded the majority within 2- 5 years.Some were involved in good trades, but it would be nice to see a homegrown guy be a Flyer for life. to me if your that eager to dump your first rounders, either your not picking the right player, or your not showing any patience. Had we drafted Parise, Seabrooke, Perry, Dustin Brown or Getzlaf, which we passed on for Carter and Richards... would we have been that eager to dump them? So either we are picking the wrong guys, or not giving them a fair time period to blossom. I think our only first rounder ...Bill Barber retired as a career Flyer. Im almost certain we have traded away most of our second rounders as well.

1978- Behn Wilson ,Ken Linseman- both traded after a relatively short time

1979- Brian Propp- played with Flyers for a long time, eventually traded-

1980, Mike Stothers - total flop

1981 Steve Smith- total flop

1982- Ron Sutter- played a long time eventually traded

1983- traded pick

1984- traded pick

1985 Glenn Seabrooke- total flop

1986 Kerry Huffman- traded in Lindros deal

1987 Darren Rumble- total flop

1988 Claude Boivin- total flop

1989- traded pick

1990- Mike Ricci- traded in Lindros deal

1991- Peter Forsberg- traded in Lindros deal

1992-Jason Bown -total flop

1993- traded pick

1994-traded pick

1995- Brian Boucher- traded after short time

1996- Daninus zubrus- traded after short time

1997- traded pick

1998- Simon Gagne- long careeer with Flyers ,eventually traded

1999- Max Oulette- traded after short time

2000- Justin Williams- traded after short time

2001- JeffWoywitk- traded after a short time

2002- Joni Pitkanen- traded after a short time

2003- Jeff Carter, Mike Richards- traded with 5 years

2004- traded pick

2005- Steve Downie- traded after a short time

2006- Claude Giroux- should be a Flyer for life

2007- JVR- traded after a short time

2008- Luca Sbisa- traded after a short time in Pronger deal

2009- traded pick

2010- traded pick

2011-traded pick

so here it is , we have traded almost every single first round player ,we have ever drafted, and we have also traded a bunch of first round draft picks and probably most of our second round picks.

I hindsight the 2 biggest deals we made in trading players/picks did not really work out for us, the Lindros and Pronger trades... Pronger played a few years, and Forsberg alone was a better player than Lindros...

In general, most first round choices get traded at some time in their career. There might be 2-3 guys every draft year that spend more than a handful of years with the team that drafted them.

1990's draft class is a perfect example.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/draftstats.htm?year=1990&team=&position=S&round=1

1 1 1 QUE Owen Nolan R GBR 6' 1" 214 OHL Cornwall Royals 1 2 2 VAN Petr Nedved C CZE 6' 3" 196 WHL Seattle Thunderbirds 1 3 3 DET Keith Primeau C CAN 6' 5" 220 OHL Niagara Falls Thunder 1 4 4 PHI Mike Ricci C CAN 6' 0" 200 OHL Peterborough Petes 1 5 5 PIT Jaromir Jagr R CZE 6' 3" 240 Czech Kladno 1 6 6 NYI Scott Scissons C CAN 6' 1" 190 WHL Saskatoon Blades 1 7 7 LAK Darryl Sydor D CAN 6' 1" 211 WHL Kamloops Blazers 1 8 8 MNS Derian Hatcher D USA 6' 5" 235 OHL North Bay Centennials 1 9 9 WSH John Slaney D CAN 6' 0" 190 OHL Cornwall Royals 1 10 10 TOR Drake Berehowsky D CAN 6' 2" 217 OHL Kingston Frontenacs 1 12 12 MTL Turner Stevenson R CAN 6' 3" 230 WHL Seattle Thunderbirds 1 13 13 NYR Michael Stewart D CAN 6' 3" 210 NCAA Michigan State University 1 14 14 BUF Brad May L CAN 6' 1" 213 OHL Niagara Falls Thunder 1 15 15 HFD Mark Greig R CAN 5' 11" 190 WHL Lethbridge Hurricanes 1 16 16 CHI Karl Dykhuis D CAN 6' 3" 214 QMJHL Hull Olympiques 1 17 17 EDM Scott Allison C CAN 6' 4" 195 WHL Prince Albert Raiders 1 18 18 VAN Shawn Antoski L CAN 6' 4" 235 OHL North Bay Centennials 1 19 19 WIN Keith Tkachuk C USA 6' 2" 235 Mass. Malden Catholic H.S. 1 21 21 BOS Bryan Smolinski C USA 6' 1" 203 NCAA Michigan State University

Out of that list, most players spent 5 seasons or less with their draft team (many spent seasons in the minors during that time). Or, they flopped. Jagr, May, and Hatcher were pretty much the only players who spent a lot of time with the draft team.

BTW, I'm not disagreeing with your point -- the Flyers trade away a lot of 1st round choices and the last 20 years has not been kind to them with round 1 picks.

[Podein25]

The debate is whether you want to have a competitive team every year that might strike lightning

Yeah fair enough. We agree. In fact, what I liked most about the Carter and Richards trades were that they kept us compettive in the short, medium and long-term.

[jammer2]

@bryanc That 90 draft, I've often LOL'ed about how guys like Mike Ricci, Kieth Primeau and Nedved getting picked ahead of Jagr. Didn't these teams have over seas scouts in those days?? A blind man could see he should have went before these plummers.