Proposal Mtl - Flyers trade proposal

[sarsippius]

Anyways im not going to argue with you people.

That's good, because even in your profile picture you're talking out of your a*s

Take a page out of @habsguy26 's book - he's arguing the same point as you are without using hyperbole or exaggeration or declaring himself to be the smartest person on the board.

[Podein25]

That means nothing.. If I were Philidelphia, right now, I'd rather have Subban.

It means everything!

Who would you rather build a franchise around is the question I proposed. The fact that Cooter is behind Giroux in the depth chart at centre doesn't change the fact that you need guys like Cooter to win championships. Anybody who wants to trade Subban for Cooter (i.e. the OP), must agree. Otherwise, why would they want to make that trade?

[habsguy26]

It means everything!

Who would you rather build a franchise around is the question I proposed. The fact that Cooter is behind Giroux in the depth chart at centre doesn't change the fact that you need guys like Cooter to win championships. Anybody who wants to trade Subban for Cooter (i.e. the OP), must agree. Otherwise, why would they want to make that trade?

Pod, let's look at Philly's depth at center as a whole... Giroux, Briere, Coots, Talbot and Schenn are all NATURAL centers. Plus you have Laughton, Cousins and Pither coming up. Compare that to the D of the Flyers. On starting night, your D corps could look like Grossmann - Coburn, Timmonen - Schenn, Bourdon/Gervais - Gus... Subban would help you out RIGHT NOW (can't put enough emphasis on that) more than Couturier would. Not to mention Subban has the potential to be ANY team's number 1 defender. Look at recent cup champs. Anaheim had Pronger/Neidermayer, Detroit had Lidstrom, Pittsburgh had Gonchar (when he was good), Chicago had Kieth/Seabrook, Boston had Chara, L.A had Doughty. Every team needs that one player to win championships. Not devaluing the role of a defensive checking line center, but its not the type of player Coots naturally is. He would be better suited as top 6 scoring center, but thats just my honest opinion.

[habsguy26]

@sarsippius Thanks, I'm trying real hard. lol

[Podein25]

Not devaluing the role of a defensive checking line center, but its not the type of player Coots naturally is. He would be better suited as top 6 scoring center, but thats just my honest opinion.

I agree. But if Cooter actually ends up being that over his career, he and I will both be sorely disappointed. He played that role last year out of necessity. He's got way more game than that and everybody knows it. Look at his Q numbers. Look at his actual game. He's a dangerous player. He buys time like nobody's business and sees the ice better than most 30 year olds.

As for all those natural centers, the Flyers have always drafted centers and turned some of them into wingers. They've been doing it since the 1970s. It makes sense. Centers are smarter, more complete players.

Out of all those guys you listed, Cooter is not likely to be turned into a winger. And not likely to be moved. He is the most natural center of them all, because he is BIG. Even more natural than Giroux. Schenn looks to be already being turned into a winger (but can play center if need be, which is a good problem to have!). Are you catching my general drift here or should I go on?

Edited August 14, 2012 by Podein25

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922

That would never happen because Holmgren would never let him reach RFA status. That was Nashville dropping the ball not the Flyers being bullies to some poor little small market team.

Yes Nashville dropped the ball. But again I refer you to the four hundred page topic where we talked for days about big money vs. small markets. I'm not going to do it all again here. Lol. A question nobody asked... How do we know Nashville DIDN'T try to sign him before he was an RFA?

Edited August 14, 2012 by Polaris922

[habsguy26]

I agree. But if Cooter actually ends up being that over his career, he and I will both be sorely disappointed. He played that role last year out of necessity. He's got way more game than that and everybody knows it. Look at his Q numbers. Look at his actual game. He's a dangerous player. He buys time like nobody's business and sees the ice better than most 30 year olds.

As for all those natural centers, the Flyers have always drafted centers and turned some of them into wingers. They've been doing it since the 1970s. It makes sense. Centers are smarter, more complete players.

Out of all those guys you listed, Cooter is not likely to be turned into a winger. And not likely to be moved. He is the most natural center of them all, because he is BIG. Even more natural than Giroux. Schenn looks to be already being turned into a winger (but can play center if need be, which is a good problem to have!). Are you catching my general drift here or should I go on?

I see you didn't touch your need for a star defenseman I like Coots and I think a deal for him and Subban straight up (lets leave Simmonds and Kristo out of this) would be a good deal for both teams.

[hf101]

@jammer2 You're right, because in terms of potential its not even close, Subban wins, All Subban needs to do is get his head out of where the sun doesn't shine and focus on hockey. There's no denying it, Subban has NO ceiling. Couturier does. His ceiling is a 2nd line center, as long as Giroux stays in Philly, and preeeeetty sure Giroux will NOT be forced out by Coots.

And what determines the title of a 2nd line center?........Crosby and Malkin say hello which one do you think has a ceiling? And why is that an undesirable situation? Both I believe have a cap hit of 8.7M

let's look at Philly's depth at center as a whole... Giroux, Briere, Coots, Talbot and Schenn are all NATURAL centers. Plus you have Laughton, Cousins and Pither coming up. Compare that to the D of the Flyers. On starting night, your D corps could look like Grossmann - Coburn, Timmonen - Schenn, Bourdon/Gervais - Gus... Subban would help you out RIGHT NOW (can't put enough emphasis on that) more than Couturier would. Not to mention Subban has the potential to be ANY team's number 1 defender. Look at recent cup champs. Anaheim had Pronger/Neidermayer, Detroit had Lidstrom, Pittsburgh had Gonchar (when he was good), Chicago had Kieth/Seabrook, Boston had Chara, L.A had Doughty. Every team needs that one player to win championships. Not devaluing the role of a defensive checking line center, but its not the type of player Coots naturally is. He would be better suited as top 6 scoring center, but thats just my honest opinion.

There is a fine line when setting up a team for now and for the future, I don't think anyone in the Flyers organization planned for Couturier to excel as fast as he did......realistically I believe Couturier was chosen to be Briere's replacement. Thus it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to trade away that future. Holmgren has been drafting quality centers for years. It is his strategy.....he picks and chooses the best and makes trades for d-men or tries to sign them through FA. As you stated every team needs one defensive player to win championships......We have Timonen and Coburn now..........we have L. Schenn so far for the future..........What is needed isn't at the moment a #1 d-man but a 3-4 d-man. And this team doesn't need to trade away their #1prospect in Couturier to gain a 3-4 type d-man.

[jammer2]

Couturier has the best natural release I've seen since Mike Bossy was playing. He's so fluid and accurate, the puck is off his stick ultra quick. A blind man could see he will score a ton of goals when "his role changes". In a few years, he will be one of our top 4 forwards, when that happens, he will play the top pp with Giroux....they will make it work.

Here is Subban at work...notice where the puck ends up, another case of him trying to do it all himself, not taking the safe route, trying to be the star. I dare you to find video like this of Sean....you won't, cause it does not exist. He is not mistake free, but this 19 year old kid does not make glaring game altering errors. You can't teach hockey IQ, either you have it or you don't, and guess what, Sean has it and Subban lacks it. There is your difference. That and lack of ego on Sean's part.

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=128391

[flyercanuck]

@habsguy26

I think the big point you're missing is....Couturier is a talented young but mature player, Subban is a talented young jerk.

I'll take playing with Seans personality all day long over playing with someone like Pernells.

[Brandon Defoy]

It means everything!

Who would you rather build a franchise around is the question I proposed. The fact that Cooter is behind Giroux in the depth chart at centre doesn't change the fact that you need guys like Cooter to win championships. Anybody who wants to trade Subban for Cooter (i.e. the OP), must agree. Otherwise, why would they want to make that trade?

Subban would be 2x more important than cooter for a team to win a cup. A 1st line quarter back is always more important than a forward. Except if your talking about players like Crosby or Malkin.. Then it can be arguable. But right now you are talking about a 19 yr old 3rd liner with the expectations of him being a 2nd line. far most like Jordan Staal. he hasent even proved anything yet. what he showed was amazing for a prospect i can admit but again playing on the 3rd and 4th line on the flyers can be tricky because its one of the best offensive teams in the NHL. Maybe Couturier will become a Jordan Staal and hit the 30-40 goals with philly but then again a guy like Subban is very rare with talent that has the potential to be one of the best defensemen in the league. he can easily be as good as Drew Doughty. All you need is time and patience like almost 85% of all of the greatest defensemen of the NHL. I'm telling you if Montreal did trade Subban for Couturier and Simmonds and Subban becomes what hes supposed to become and Cooter is just like Jordan Staal. even with Simmonds, Montreal would lose in this trade.

You guys just don't realize how important a 1st liner defensemen quarter back is in the NHL. You win cups with a goalie and defense not with 2nd or 3rd liner forward players..

Ps: sorry for the attitude before guys.. it just was annoying to see people giving me reasons like attitude and mistakes to make subban look so invaluable..

and make couturier look like sidney crosby caliber loll

[Brandon Defoy]

Couturier has the best natural release I've seen since Mike Bossy was playing. He's so fluid and accurate, the puck is off his stick ultra quick. A blind man could see he will score a ton of goals when "his role changes". In a few years, he will be one of our top 4 forwards, when that happens, he will play the top pp with Giroux....they will make it work.

Here is Subban at work...notice where the puck ends up, another case of him trying to do it all himself, not taking the safe route, trying to be the star. I dare you to find video like this of Sean....you won't, cause it does not exist. He is not mistake free, but this 19 year old kid does not make glaring game altering errors. You can't teach hockey IQ, either you have it or you don't, and guess what, Sean has it and Subban lacks it. There is your difference. That and lack of ego on Sean's part.

http://video.nhl.com...nsole?id=128391

Yea but you forget the fact that Subban plays 27min per match and is on the top line of one of the most shittiest teams in the NHL today. we didn't even have a coach last year and Markov was injured so there was absolutely no tools for Subban... Even our organization was a disaster and no players wanted to play, Plekanec ended up having one of his worse seasons because every line kept changing... trust me if you would have put Cooter in the Habs last year, you wouldnt even have heard nothing about him... Put Subban on the 2 line pair of defensemen on the flyers and you'd realize that playing with absolutely no pressure and having Pronger and other veterans support him every match would make him look like one of the best defensemen of the whole NHL with his talent...

what you saw in the playoffs with pittsburgh was a complete free for all so i hope your not putting that in consideration. anybody on the team could have scored over 8 goals that whole series with all the brawls and ridiculous **** that was happening... Its funny how Cooter scored so much vs Pens but barely did vs Devils..

And that series was the perfect example to show you that Goalies and Defensemen is more important than forward players in playoffs.

[habsguy26]

@Brandon Defoy

Exactly, thats what you needed to say before.

[Brandon Defoy]

@Brandon Defoy

Exactly, thats what you needed to say before.

tell me what defensemen does this to get his hat trick goal hahah

[jammer2]

@Brandon Defoy Yeah, and he came within an inch of sending the Wild the other way.....if the Minnesota player just taps that puck, the other pk guy goes for an uncontested break away the other way. Sorry we got off on bad footing yesterday, but ya get what you give around here.

Here is an interesting question....which player gets invited to the Olympics for Canada first, Sean or P.K ? Sure Subban would look good on the bigger ice surface, but he will not get picked, to selfish, not a high enough hockey IQ. Sean makes it before PK, although he might have to shift to the wing. Certainly neither one would make the next Olympics, but the one after will answer our questions.

[Brandon Defoy]

@Brandon Defoy Yeah, and he came within an inch of sending the Wild the other way.....if the Minnesota player just taps that puck, the other pk guy goes for an uncontested break away the other way. Sorry we got off on bad footing yesterday, but ya get what you give around here.

Here is an interesting question....which player gets invited to the Olympics for Canada first, Sean or P.K ? Sure Subban would look good on the bigger ice surface, but he will not get picked, to selfish, not a high enough hockey IQ. Sean makes it before PK, although he might have to shift to the wing. Certainly neither one would make the next Olympics, but the one after will answer our questions.

''if'' the other guy taps the puck .... ''IF'' is a big word man! i could say the same when couturier scored his hat trick goal vs pens. IF the defensemen was at his place couturier woudnt have scored loll.. i'm ready to bet you 100$ Subban makes team canada next olympics! so will Carey Price!! im not sure couturier will because of age and because of the depth in forwards Canada has.. Taking nothing off Cooter but there are so much brute talent coming up for Canada next olympics that it would be practically impossible to choose who will make it, out of all those amazing prospects...

Weber - Doughty

Keith - Seabrook

Subban - Letang

Myers.

that wouldnt be too bad would it haha

[jammer2]

@Brandon Defoy I honestly believe Subban has the raw skills to make a Team Canada squad....but he has a long way to go before he makes that kind of team. There is a lot of established veteran depth in Canada on defense (well, really any positon), and right now, if they did want to throw in a youngster, it would be Pietrangelo, not Subban. He needs to concentrate on when to pinch, when not to, when to utilize his teammates instead of trying to dance through half a team...and in general, shoving his ego in the back pocket and being a bit more humble. It's a privilege to play in the NHL, a little humility goes a long way.

[Brandon Defoy]

@Brandon Defoy I honestly believe Subban has the raw skills to make a Team Canada squad....but he has a long way to go before he makes that kind of team. There is a lot of established veteran depth in Canada on defense (well, really any positon), and right now, if they did want to throw in a youngster, it would be Pietrangelo, not Subban. He needs to concentrate on when to pinch, when not to, when to utilize his teammates instead of trying to dance through half a team...and in general, shoving his ego in the back pocket and being a bit more humble. It's a privilege to play in the NHL, a little humility goes a long way.

Stop with his ego...... that was in his first 2 years... This year he was wayyyy more mature then before, Ego isnt his concern anymore the more years he plays the more he will learn and develop alot more maturity. Thats all you people can say about him is ''ego, selfishness and attitude'' because you can't accept the fact that his attitude goes with his talent. The guy is Dominant and he will be alot more in the near future especially with a stable well organized team that wants to play. His attitude will make him even better when playing against other teams. it will make players on the opposite team lose patience and distract them from their game making them pissed and not concentrated.

they will be too busy trying to get subban while the whole team has alot more freedom to make points. Youl see now that habs have an amazing coach for young players in Therrien, how Subban will play. Your still not realizing how much talent and potential this kid has. If handled in the right hands he will put Couturier in his back pocket if he becomes what hes supposed to become..

Subban will play over Myers if ever Pietrangelo makes team Canada.

Subban is a Bomb thats ready to blow and once he does..... hes going to make your jaw hit the ground.

[Brandon Defoy]

@jammer2

put it this way if couturier doesnt become a better player then Jordan Staal in the future. I'd never trade Subban for Couturier even if Simmonds came with him..

But i'd take the risk and hope Couturier becomes better than J.S. just because Habs have such a huge Lack of big Centermen.

[hf101]

@Brandon Defoy

Weber- Doughty

Keith - Seabrook

Subban - Letang

Myers.

that wouldnt be too bad would it haha

I think you missing a few quality D-men on your list.

Staal, Hamhuis, Campbell, Girardi, Pietrangelo, Burns, Boyle, Coburn, Phaneuf

all of which could make the team over Subban.

[Brandon Defoy]

@Brandon Defoy

I think you missing a few quality D-men on your list.

Staal, Hamhuis, Campbell, Girardi, Pietrangelo, Burns, Boyle, Coburn, Phaneuf

all of which could make the team over Subban.

may god bless this flyers fan and Coburn.

Amen.

[Brandon Defoy]

@Brandon Defoy

I think you missing a few quality D-men on your list.

Staal, Hamhuis, Campbell, Girardi, Pietrangelo, Burns, Boyle, Coburn, Phaneuf

all of which could make the team over Subban.

your absolutely right if i was a GM id pick anyone of those players before Subban. especially Coburn.

[jammer2]

@Brandon Defoy On that list, I'd say Stall and Pietrangelo would be the only guys Subban would have to worry about. Boyle is past his prime, Campbell would not be considered, same as Coburn and Phaneuf (can't even figure out why 101 would bother to list him....YUCK), Burns has declined as has Hamhuis. Girardi is a respectable d-man, even underrated, but can't see him cracking a Canadian Olympic team roster.

[Irishjim]

The admins here should be able to check IP addresses for posters. Just compare them and see if anybody is duplicated in the lists.

we do and duplicates get blocked

[Polaris922]

we do and duplicates get blocked

Answers that for everyone. Thanks!