Salary Cap Holmgren: "I like our team..."

[murraycraven]

Timonen is a number 5 D man on most competitive teams now, but in the condition your D is, he'll still see major ice time. I'd expect as number 4. If I were Laviolette... I'd have Coburn and Schenn first pair to see what Schenn does in his new orange. Grossman and Timonen second pair... due to injury or Meszaros would be there instead of Timonen. Your 5 and 6 right now are developers... and I dunno your young D men well enough to guess too well. Manning and Gustavson I'd assume? If Schenn bombs out, bump him down to the second pair and put Timonen back for stability sake, but I don't think he'll have the gas to be there all season.

huh!? lay off the pipe dude...

[Polaris922]

*shrugs* it is what it is... we'll just agree to disagree. Your opinion I'm nuts... mine is you're overrating him because he's been a hero in the past.

[jammer2]

@Polaris922 Gotta disagree, Timonen does so many little things correctly, so many nuances most would not catch during a game. He's super valuable even at this age. If we were to lose him, the season would be seriously at risk AND he still runs our top pp unit, with no repacement in sight. Top 5??? Really???

[DaGreatGazoo]

There is no doubt that Kimmo has slowed down, there is no doubt he is not the player he once was...but no better than 5th on any competitive team in the league is off-base.

Difference of opinions..that's why we are here. All good.

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922 Gotta disagree, Timonen does so many little things correctly, so many nuances most would not catch during a game. He's super valuable even at this age. If we were to lose him, the season would be seriously at risk AND he still runs our top pp unit, with no repacement in sight. Top 5??? Really???

A guy can skate third pair and still be top PP pointman. A LOT of Flyers fans here agreed he needed less ice time to be successful and avoid the injury bug. These were the majority of the sentiments I read when the season ended and talk was of how tired he looked. His regular season play reflected poorly as well, at least in the stats department. Well, I'm open to suggestions as to how you do that if he's not seeing a reduced role? If you want to skate a guy 18 minutes a game to reduce his time and still call him your number 1 then go ahead I suppose.. but the fact of the matter is when the minutes are added up, if Timonen is above your number 4 ice time man towards the end of the season, he will suck in the playoffs or worse, be injured. I'm not saying to drag him into the field and put him out of his misery. But if you put him on the ice against a guy like Crosby or Malkin instead of Grossman, Coburn, Meszaros, or Schenn... he's going to get burned more often than them simply because he's slowing down. He's better positionally, but see how he looks half way through the season that way. It's not knocking his accomplishments, it's a fact of life.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Polaris922

[Podein25]

Why does less ice time have to equal 3rd pairing minutes? No middle ground?

We will have to revisit this question of whether Timonen can handle elite players anymore. I say he can. If there is a season, we shall see soon enough. And then we can re-visit again at the All-Star break to see how he's fairing. And then in April and so on....

[JackStraw]

Excuse me?

You're not excused.

[Podein25]

@JackStraw

Reported.

[Polaris922]

Why does less ice time have to equal 3rd pairing minutes? No middle ground?

We will have to revisit this question of whether Timonen can handle elite players anymore. I say he can. If there is a season, we shall see soon enough. And then we can re-visit again at the All-Star break to see how he's fairing. And then in April and so on....

My initial post was he's second pair till Meszaros returns, but depending on Schenn's development he may bump to 5th man then. I think Coburn, Grossman, and Meszaros outplay Timonen now. I think Schenn has the potential to. Obviously a few of you disagree so I started a topic about it "If you're Holmgren...".

[JackStraw]

@JackStraw

Reported.

Damn.

[JackStraw]

My initial post was he's second pair till Meszaros returns, but depending on Schenn's development he may bump to 5th man then. I think Coburn, Grossman, and Meszaros outplay Timonen now. I think Schenn has the potential to. Obviously a few of you disagree so I started a topic about it "If you're Holmgren...".

Not going to happen. Timmo will be top 4 as long as he's in the lineup. No doubt about that.

[Polaris922]

Not going to happen. Timmo will be top 4 as long as he's in the lineup. No doubt about that.

As an opponent I like that idea. If I were a fan I'd hope Laviolette is smarter than that. Even great defenseman slide with age. Timonen was good, but the slide has begun.

[JackStraw]

As an opponent I like that idea. If I were a fan I'd hope Laviolette is smarter than that. Even great defenseman slide with age. Timonen was good, but the slide has begun.

Of course it has. The slide began with Nick Lidstrom a few years before he retired but he still won his 7th Norris Trophy a year ago. You seem to think that Timonen's only value is on the PP. The reality is, he is still excellent defensively. One of the best positional defenseman around. Excellent passer, great vision and can control the tempo of the game coming out of his own end. And oh yeah, pretty good on the PK too. Just because he's not as good as he used to be doesn't mean that he's still not very good. As someone else already mentioned, he was an All-Star this past season. And he was 14th in scoring among league defensemen. He can't suck too bad.

Tell you what, if Timonen stays healthy and ends up on the third defense pairing this year, I will wear a Sidney Crosby jersey every day for one year.

[Polaris922]

Of course it has. The slide began with Nick Lidstrom a few years before he retired but he still won his 7th Norris Trophy a year ago. You seem to think that Timonen's only value is on the PP. The reality is, he is still excellent defensively. One of the best positional defenseman around. Excellent passer, great vision and can control the tempo of the game coming out of his own end. And oh yeah, pretty good on the PK too. Just because he's not as good as he used to be doesn't mean that he's still not very good. As someone else already mentioned, he was an All-Star this past season. And he was 14th in scoring among league defensemen. He can't suck too bad.

Tell you what, if Timonen stays healthy and ends up on the third defense pairing this year, I will wear a Sidney Crosby jersey every day for one year.

I don't think he sucks... I think that when Meszaros returns Timonen becomes your 4th D-man... unless Schenn has stepped up. I see Coburn, Grossman, and Meszaros as superior to Timonen right now partly because you need to reduce Timonen's ice time to get a full season out of him. If you don't he'll be gassed 3/4 through the season. Will second pairing be enough of a reduction? If Schenn develops towards his supposed potential I'd reduce Timonen to third pairing plus 1st PP unless Meszaros takes off offensively then Timo drops to 2nd PP.

As for your wager... I think the ONLY way he stays healthy the entire season is greatly reduced ice time. Third pairing might be part of that as the year goes on. I know for a FACT if Laviolette doesn't reduce his ice time in games where your boys have a sizable lead he's an idiot.

[jammer2]

@Polaris922 I do agree with you on the reduced ice time for Kimo, unless there is a stike that wipes out a quarter of the season...then he would be ok. It would certainly be in the Flyers best interest to limit his ice time. I can see him becoming a third pairing on back to back nights. Better a bit of Kimo than no Kimo at all. I'm really worried he will wear down with top ice time minutes like he saw last year. Talent wise, yeah, he's our top pairing guy, but wear and tear wise, it's smart to shut him down and shift him to 3rd pairing. Maybe 3rd pairing and pp time and take him off the pk on back to back nights. Valid point.

[mojo1917]

@jammer2

lavy will have to resist the urge to always put 44 out there on the defensive zone draw against the opponents top line, and on the PK...I think if completely healthy he can play a lot of minutes , he just doesn't need to be playing the toughest minutes all the time. move coburn and grossmann into that roll, plus i think coburn will step up this year, we saw it in the playoffs last year, he's ready to become the player he was drafted to be.

[JackStraw]

I don't think he sucks... I think that when Meszaros returns Timonen becomes your 4th D-man... unless Schenn has stepped up. I see Coburn, Grossman, and Meszaros as superior to Timonen right now partly because you need to reduce Timonen's ice time to get a full season out of him. If you don't he'll be gassed 3/4 through the season. Will second pairing be enough of a reduction? If Schenn develops towards his supposed potential I'd reduce Timonen to third pairing plus 1st PP unless Meszaros takes off offensively then Timo drops to 2nd PP.

As for your wager... I think the ONLY way he stays healthy the entire season is greatly reduced ice time. Third pairing might be part of that as the year goes on. I know for a FACT if Laviolette doesn't reduce his ice time in games where your boys have a sizable lead he's an idiot.

Well, I agree with your point about trying to reduce Timonen's ice time to keep him healthy and fresh. But that's a different argument. As far as ability goes he's still the Flyers best all-around defenseman in my opinion. And I don't see anyone else the Flyers have currently as having the potential to fill the role that Timonen has been filling (#1/#1A). Mid to long term Homer will have to find someone, short term try to keep Timonen healthy.

[Polaris922]

Well, I agree with your point about trying to reduce Timonen's ice time to keep him healthy and fresh. But that's a different argument. As far as ability goes he's still the Flyers best all-around defenseman in my opinion. And I don't see anyone else the Flyers have currently as having the potential to fill the role that Timonen has been filling (#1/#1A). Mid to long term Homer will have to find someone, short term try to keep Timonen healthy.

I think my saying he's slipping put people into a "defend Timonen" stance and my points were lost in translation. The guy knows the position better than anyone on your team. Time and injuries have taken their toll. He has some speed left but not much physicality. The more he is forced to use either though will wear on him. The guy can still be a great defender but only IF he's used in a more limited role. Even then I'm sure he'll have his issues, but reduced ice time will be the deciding factor on whether Timonen is at the front of the pack on +/- or bringing up the rear for you. THAT is why I said he will need to drop minutes. And if I were Laviolette, I'd be using him in a third pairing role once Meszaros is back. Conserves his stamina, reduces the quality of skaters he's against night after night, and will give him space to work offensively perhaps without as much punishment as going against an Ovenchicken or Lecavalier or Crosby type players.

[Mad Dog]

Tell you what, if Timonen stays healthy and ends up on the third defense pairing this year, I will wear a Sidney Crosby jersey every day for one year.

No you won't. I will report your ass and you should be banned for life from EVERY SINGLE Flyers forum... :blink:

[Podein25]

I think my...points were lost in translation

I'm an expert at losing things in translation but you wrote: "Timonen is a number 5 D man on most competitive teams now..."

You'll have to live by that silly statement.

Alternatively, you could retract it, and admit it for the sillyness that it is. We won't think worse of you. Well, some might, but not me - I've said all kinds of crazy stuff before that I've had to retract. Just watch me....

[Polaris922]

I'm an expert at losing things in translation but you wrote: "Timonen is a number 5 D man on most competitive teams now..."

You'll have to live by that silly statement.

Alternatively, you could retract it, and admit it for the sillyness that it is. We won't think worse of you. Well, some might, but not me - I've said all kinds of crazy stuff before that I've had to retract. Just watch me....

I'm not retracting it. Not by any means. I think due to his age, injury, losing a step, and the need to control his ice time, he IS a third pair guy on the top 8 teams in our conference. That includes yours once Meszaros is healthy.

A comparison was made to Lidstrom earlier in this topic, slipping with age... But Lidstrom was a much greater d-man than Timonen has been. Timonen still bring skill, experience, and solid positional play to the ice. BUT he can't play 20 minutes a night and go far into the season.

It's not his hockey IQ I'm knocking... His speed isn't what it was. What physical play he had is dwindling. And he just can't go the long minutes he used to without it catching up to him.

I hope Meszaros comes back and Timonen stays top four. It will be easier on my Pens top forwards. And come playoff time he'll be exhausted again, and maybe my boys can force a different outcome than this last time.

[jammer2]

@Polaris922 Sorry, I still think it's a silly statement. There is not that many teams where Kimo would not be a top 4 guy, even with losing a step and his age factored in. He's one of the very smartest d-men in the league. He does so many little things so well. The Rangers are the only team in the East where he would not be a top 4 guy. He still skates the puck up ice like a champ, controls the flow of the game with his experience and smarts,

Still a top tier puck disperser on the pp, still anticpates better then 90% of the d-men in the league. His first pass out of his zone is always on the stick, and does not make the forwards who recieve the puck vulnerable to getting their bell wrung. His shot is usually on net and we get tons of rebound oppoutunies when he shoots from the point. He knows exactly when to leave the ice, never leaving the team in a vulnerable position. These are all skills that are highly sought after.....and he does them better than most....still...to say he's not a top 5 on most teams in the East....that is just silly.

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922 Sorry, I still think it's a silly statement. There is not that many teams where Kimo would not be a top 4 guy, even with losing a step and his age factored in. He's one of the very smartest d-men in the league. He does so many little things so well. The Rangers are the only team in the East where he would not be a top 4 guy. He still skates the puck up ice like a champ, controls the flow of the game with his experience and smarts,

Still a top tier puck disperser on the pp, still anticpates better then 90% of the d-men in the league. His first pass out of his zone is always on the stick, and does not make the forwards who recieve the puck vulnerable to getting their bell wrung. His shot is usually on net and we get tons of rebound oppoutunies when he shoots from the point. He knows exactly when to leave the ice, never leaving the team in a vulnerable position. These are all skills that are highly sought after.....and he does them better than most....still...to say he's not a top 5 on most teams in the East....that is just silly.

I say not top 4.. but that's fine. You guys obviously think a lot more of him than I do. And that's fine... because you're the ones who are betting on him. Good luck with him. I like the guy and wish him success. He's a class act.

[jammer2]

@Polaris922 Not to split hairs here, but when you say "Timonen is a number 5 D man on most competitive teams now" how can I take it any other way than he would not be a top 4 d-man?

[Podein25]

@Polaris922

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, even if you are full of crap

If you are right, the Flyers are in serious trouble, but I'm certain you are wrong so that will allow me to sleep at night.