Now let's not be hypocritical...

[mojo1917]

I titled the topic correctly. If you're going to go after Crosby for his comments and losing composure, you have to do the same with Giroux and Laviolette. *shrug*. In the immortal words of Foghorn Leghorn... If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... Boy, you got a duck.

Except to me it doesn't look as though Claude had lost his composure at all...save for maybe realizing he has said too much and doesn't have savvy to remove the shoe from his mouth.

Plus to put the loss to NJ on him losing his composure is a dog that doesn't hunt for me , the flyers were in trouble the minute DeBoer figured out to pressure the right side of the Flyers D with his forecheck , with no right handed defensemen , no Pronger and a beat up Timmonen , there was little to be done.

[Polaris922]

Except to me it doesn't look as though Claude had lost his composure at all...save for maybe realizing he has said too much and doesn't have savvy to remove the shoe from his mouth.

Plus to put the loss to NJ on him losing his composure is a dog that doesn't hunt for me , the flyers were in trouble the minute DeBoer figured out to pressure the right side of the Flyers D with his forecheck , with no right handed defensemen , no Pronger and a beat up Timmonen , there was little to be done.

And I would argue that Sid saying he doesn't like the Flyers in the locker room immediately after a circus loss is not losing composure any more than Giroux did. Is it normal for a captain to say? No... But neither is saying you don't like another team's fans after a game where fans really didn't do anything major.

Giroux wasn't any more responsible for losing to the Devils than Crosby was for Losing to the Flyers. Did they both hurt their teams? Yes.. But the main problems? Not even close.

[Polaris922]

We're talking about Crosby right? My point was I'm not in the "hate Crosby cause he's a Pen" category. I followed him likely before 99.999999999% of Pens fans even knew who he was. But he didn't make me follow the NHL. And I'm sure the Flyers would have been just fine without Sidney Crosby in the league. Living near Toronto, the Leafs would be fine if you put a bunch of accountants in blue and white on skates. Rangers, Bruins, Red Wings, Hawks, Habs etc all would still be here if Crosby had never played. Pittsburgh wouldn't. And maybe a few other teams that shouldn't be there anyway. So no, he didn't save the league. Hartnell did.

I dunno about "saving the league" but the NHL selling him as a poster boy right after the lockout definitely raised interest in the league. I think it definitely helped the league recover from the lockout faster than it would have pushing a guy like Ovechkin or Malkin. Crosby, love or hate, is a great talent to watch and arena attendance league wide reflects that. Bettman may have over publicized him, but it worked.

[B21]

@B21 I believe the one thing I overlooked when comparing the two interviews was the timing. One (Sid's) was right after a playoff war in which they lost...although I don't know when Giroux's interview was, it did not look like a heat of the battle kind of thing, maybe an off season training day or something like that....that factor can certainly account for Crosby's frustration level and coming off a bit childish....and why G was so laid back and laughing.

Works the other way, too. If you feel Sid's comments were not appropriate, that's certainly more forgivable when taking place in a "heat of the battle moment" whereas Giroux was clearly at least thinking about this well after the season ended.

[B21]

We're talking about Crosby right? My point was I'm not in the "hate Crosby cause he's a Pen" category. I followed him likely before 99.999999999% of Pens fans even knew who he was. But he didn't make me follow the NHL. And I'm sure the Flyers would have been just fine without Sidney Crosby in the league. Living near Toronto, the Leafs would be fine if you put a bunch of accountants in blue and white on skates. Rangers, Bruins, Red Wings, Hawks, Habs etc all would still be here if Crosby had never played. Pittsburgh wouldn't. And maybe a few other teams that shouldn't be there anyway. So no, he didn't save the league. Hartnell did.

If you consider 12 teams a "league" - sure, I guess. Difference between saving franchises and saving leagues. I don't know many 12 teams leagues these days.

I'll argue he didn't necessarily save the Pens either...save as in "there are no Pens if they don't win the lottery and draft him". They still sucked Sid's rookie year. Still would have drafted Malkin and Staal and still would have had the required superstar Pittsburgh needs to draw. Plus another $8.7 million to spend elsewhere.

As for Hartnell...I know...the hair. Sid has work to do their.

[B21]

Except to me it doesn't look as though Claude had lost his composure at all...save for maybe realizing he has said too much and doesn't have savvy to remove the shoe from his mouth.

Plus to put the loss to NJ on him losing his composure is a dog that doesn't hunt for me , the flyers were in trouble the minute DeBoer figured out to pressure the right side of the Flyers D with his forecheck , with no right handed defensemen , no Pronger and a beat up Timmonen , there was little to be done.

Just like putting the Pens' lose on Sid's composure (or lack there of) doesn't hunt either. Not that you have been the one doing that but still...

That said...Claude did lose his composure at a critical spot. Can't deny that.

[mojo1917]

@B21

you can defend your guy all you like, but you're not going to gain any traction with this bunch.

you can also try to draw parallels with giroux's comments but again good luck... they are not close. outside of Penguin nation and Steve Ott's mom , there aren't a whole lot of people that are working up a hatred for Giroux, however i can poll just about any NHL fan base and easily find some for 87.

Same with Giroux's heinous atrocity perpetrated against a defenseless dinas zubris, who showed great fortitude by remaining in the game. a real warrior that guy. The flyers blew their load against the pens, had no right handed defensman and the lead dogs that made that not an issue were out for their career and beat up on their way to becoming a 5th pairing player .

are you holding out hope that we'll see the light and say "you know what B, you're right, Sid acted appropriately and has always been the model player for the league and golly i wish he was a flyer ? " that's not happening.

your guy is a lightning rod for controversy, some of it he brought upon himself and some has been thrust upon him, fairly or unfairly.

claude giroux will never be as polarizing a figure as sidney crosby. that is the curse of sidney's greatness.

[Penguins-66]

These days, I strongly doubt Sid looks at it as "a curse".

At age 25, he's playing a game he loves for a living, makes millions playing it, has a cup win and a decent amount of personal hardware on his resume. If that's a curse, I would gladly take it.

I think over time, players like Lemieux and Crosby simply shrug it off and simply play the game. When you're 19 or 20-years old, I'm sure it does get to you to some degree, especially when much is expected from you, but then you realize a small but vocal amount of fans are complete simpletons who could never hack it in the NHL and there's really nothing you can do or say about it.

In short, life could definately be worse for Sidney Crosby...lol.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Penguins-66

[Polaris922]

@B21

you can defend your guy all you like, but you're not going to gain any traction with this bunch.

you can also try to draw parallels with giroux's comments but again good luck... they are not close. outside of Penguin nation and Steve Ott's mom , there aren't a whole lot of people that are working up a hatred for Giroux, however i can poll just about any NHL fan base and easily find some for 87.

Same with Giroux's heinous atrocity perpetrated against a defenseless dinas zubris, who showed great fortitude by remaining in the game. a real warrior that guy. The flyers blew their load against the pens, had no right handed defensman and the lead dogs that made that not an issue were out for their career and beat up on their way to becoming a 5th pairing player .

are you holding out hope that we'll see the light and say "you know what B, you're right, Sid acted appropriately and has always been the model player for the league and golly i wish he was a flyer ? " that's not happening.

your guy is a lightning rod for controversy, some of it he brought upon himself and some has been thrust upon him, fairly or unfairly.

claude giroux will never be as polarizing a figure as sidney crosby. that is the curse of sidney's greatness.

I started this thread not so much with the intentions of defending Crosby... as I know that would NEVER happen in a Flyer's dominated forum. He has a lot of critics all over the world, I understand. I criticize him from time to time myself. I started it with the intention of showing how hypocritical it is to attack him for some of the simple comments he's made, or losing his cool here and there. There are times he's deserved it, and time he hasn't. I don't like when people are so quick to admonish him for something, then turn the blind eye when their own players/coaches do the same or similar conduct. There are more knowledgable hockey fans here and though I don't expect any to jump up in Sid's defense, I DO expect an even playing field, and that means admitting that superstar players sometimes put their feet in their mouth (Giroux), or that hockey is an emotional game and anyone can lose their cool on or off the ice even when they're not necessarily supposed to (Laviolette).

I suppose the point is... criticize Crosby all you want when it's deserved. But if people are going to go after him for petty stuff they better damn well be prepared for their favorite players to face the same criticism for similar conduct.

[mojo1917]

@Penguins-66

when i think of transcendent talents, there are guys who are great, and people just roll with it accept there's nothing to be done about it , save accept & admire it. derek jeter, peyton manning, wayne gretzky, mario lemieux for a time michael jordan, (until his HOF speech). there isn't/wasn't the vitriol directed at those guys the way there was at john elway, barry bonds, patrick roy, charles barkley, mike schmidt, and terrell owens.

To me Crosby's talent should put him in that first group of players , he can do things at top speed that other pros cannot do standing still, but for some reason he is not beloved the way the first group is, but reviled like the second group.

Some of this is Reebok and the NHL's fault for jamming him down the hockey public's throat when he had done nothing, however, had he played the game like a quality north american kid all would be forgiven and soon the adulation would come. Sadly he started out playing the game like a super-liga Brazilian soccer player. And here we are, so while he has toned all facets of his "act " down there still remains a large portion of the hockey public that will not embrace him they way they did other greats... you may not think it's a curse but having his skill and looking like a lost jonas brother,( i mean that in a good way) yet being nearly universally hated in every arena you visit has to suck at least a little.

Edit: not to mention be exhausting, using all the mental energy to "stick it to those bastards" that wears on a guy too.

[Polaris922]

@Penguins-66

when i think of transcendent talents, there are guys who are great, and people just roll with it accept there's nothing to be done about it , save accept & admire it. derek jeter, peyton manning, wayne gretzky, mario lemieux for a time michael jordan, (until his HOF speech). there isn't/wasn't the vitriol directed at those guys the way there was at john elway, barry bonds, patrick roy, charles barkley, mike schmidt, and terrell owens.

To me Crosby's talent should put him in that first group of players , he can do things at top speed that other pros cannot do standing still, but for some reason he is not beloved the way the first group is, but reviled like the second group.

Some of this is Reebok and the NHL's fault for jamming him down the hockey public's throat when he had done nothing, however, had he played the game like a quality north american kid all would be forgiven and soon the adulation would come. Sadly he started out playing the game like a super-liga Brazilian soccer player. And here we are, so while he has toned all facets of his "act " down there still remains a large portion of the hockey public that will not embrace him they way they did other greats... you may not think it's a curse but having his skill and looking like a lost jonas brother,( i mean that in a good way) yet being nearly universally hated in every arena you visit has to suck at least a little.

Edit: not to mention be exhausting, using all the mental energy to "stick it to those bastards" that wears on a guy too.

I remember Lemieux taking a lot of bashing too. Especially in the Philly/NYC/NJ area. Some superstars are just polarizing. Lindros was the same way, and a lot of fans loved to hate him. I think it's the reality of any superstar when they're brought in so young. They're going to make mistakes until they learn. Sid has learned a lot, and as he does so he will only get better.

[jammer2]

@mojo1917 I think the reason Sid is in the second group you mentioned and not the first is class. You didn't see Wayne Gretzky punch anybody in the ball sack, or knock off another players glove in the heat of battle....you just did not see that. Wayne exuded class at all times. Sure Sid is human, but when you are super talneted like that, you actions will be put under a microscope...and with Sid, that's not a pretty sight at times. It's a tough comparison, because Wayne might be the nicest player to ever live....he never did anything on or off the ice to get himself in trouble....a tribute to Walter more than anything else I guess. Wayne remains the standard that all super stars will be held to...and when you fall short (which everybody does to varying degrees) then you feel the rath of the public....fair or not.

As a human being, Grioux is a lot closer to Wayne than Sid, just my opinion. Like it or not, superstars are role models, and I'd rather have my kid behave like Grioux than Sid....it's about as simple as I can put it.

[Polaris922]

@mojo1917 I think the reason Sid is in the second group you mentioned and not the first is class. You didn't see Wayne Gretzky punch anybody in the ball sack, or knock off another players glove in the heat of battle....you just did not see that. Wayne exuded class at all times. Sure Sid is human, but when you are super talneted like that, you actions will be put under a microscope...and with Sid, that's not a pretty sight at times. It's a tough comparison, because Wayne might be the nicest player to ever live....he never did anything on or off the ice to get himself in trouble....a tribute to Walter more than anything else I guess. Wayne remains the standard that all super stars will be held to...and when you fall short (which everybody does to varying degrees) then you feel the rath of the public....fair or not. As a human being, Grioux is a lot closer to Wayne than Sid, just my opinion. Like it or not, superstars are role models, and I'd rather have my kid behave like Grioux than Sid....it's about as simple as I can put it.

Gven everything Sid has had to endure and represent.. all of the attention he gets, all of the responsibilities... he's handled literally hundreds of public appearances and NHL requested functions. He's handled them all with grace and class. He had a rough first two years in the NHL as far as on ice antics go... at the ages of 18 and 19. Giroux was 20 till he entered the league and did so with a whisper. With little to no responsibilities even within the Flyers organization let alone elsewhere in the league. Giroux has handled himself well, I won't argue, but with a drop in the bucket of obligations and responsibility comparatively. I think considering all Sid has to deal with and absorb, he has been spectacular.

Giroux finally got a taste of it during this past playoff season. His antics during the series against us were really no different than Sid's, with the exception they were winning games instead of adding the frustration of losing them. He was just as guilty of punches in the head, bringing the sticks up, and jawing at both Pens players and officials as Sid was. I think people see it differently because he's your star is all. Then in the Devils series he became more unglued and went the path where Sid was without as much of the rivalry so it was toned down a hair.

I won't sit here and say Sid is perfect by any means. But I will say his overall composure with everything that's come his way has been damn impressive for a man of such limited experience. I don't know many young men who step into an international spotlight who can say the same thing. Jagr, for instance, didn't handle it anywhere near as well as Sid has. Would be interesting to see how Giroux would deal with it day in and day out but we'll never know.

[Penguins-66]

all of the attention he gets,

I think that point is overlooked.

One of the major differences between the Lemieux-era and today's game is our society in general. If some self-proclaimed hockey "expert" wants to start up a blog and vent about a particular player until he's blue in the face, he can. Fans have a gigantic soapbox known as the internet, where they can voice their opinions to the world. Unfortunately, providing an IQ level is not required in order to access the internet.

Sports talk radio has evolved since the mid-80's. Radio stations are completely committed to callers and their opinions (The Fan). Lemieux heard his fair share of boo's and heckles during his tenure, but I have to wonder how his career would have been followed/documented if he began his career in the mid-2000's and not the mid-80's? I'm sure much like Crosby's career, it would be magnified and dissected at every turn and on a much larger scale.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Penguins-66

[flyerrod]

You didn't see Wayne Gretzky punch anybody in the ball sack, or knock off another players glove in the heat of battle

That's because Gretzky had his pitbull McSorely with him at all times. Anyone who even thought about taking a shot at Gretzky had to have their head on a swivel because McSorely was always there.

[Penguins-66]

That's because Gretzky had his pitbull McSorely with him at all times. Anyone who even thought about taking a shot at Gretzky had to have their head on a swivel because McSorely was always there.

And before McSorley, he had Semenko.

When he left Edmonton, he helped bring McSorley along with him in that trade. By no means am I saying there's anything wrong with it, but Gretzky always made sure he had an enforcer on his roster. In St. Louis, he had Esa Tikkanen and Ian Laperriere. During his time in New York, he had numerous enforcers to watch his back, Jeff Beukeboom comes to mind as just one example.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Penguins-66

[Polaris922]

That's because Gretzky had his pitbull McSorely with him at all times. Anyone who even thought about taking a shot at Gretzky had to have their head on a swivel because McSorely was always there.

@Penguins-66

And for good or bad, those days are gone. Instigator penalties and suspensions have all but done away with the traditional enforcer role. Can you see an Avery type player taking liberties with Crosby if MacIntyre were on the bench? Remember Goddard getting ten games when that idiot Haley went after Brent Johnson? He should've gotten a medal instead of a suspension! But the league wants to do away with that kind of violence, so star players get attacked more now than Gretzky or even Lemieux ever had to deal with. Notice Jay Caufield has a cushy job with the Pens? Reward for defending Mario all those years!

[Penguins-66]

Notice Jay Caufield has a cushy job with the Pens? Reward for defending Mario all those years!

I'm glad you used the term "defending" rather than "successfully protecting" when describing Jay Caufield's role.

Don't get me wrong, I respect any man who is willing to throw off the gloves and take a beating for a fellow teammate, but I never confused Jay Caufield with Rocky Marciano. Aside from having McSorley for 47 games in 93-94, Lemieux may as well had a human punching bag as his "enforcer". I'm not sure there were many throughout the league who legitimately feared Caufield.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Penguins-66

[B21]

@B21

you can defend your guy all you like, but you're not going to gain any traction with this bunch.

you can also try to draw parallels with giroux's comments but again good luck... they are not close. outside of Penguin nation and Steve Ott's mom , there aren't a whole lot of people that are working up a hatred for Giroux, however i can poll just about any NHL fan base and easily find some for 87.

Same with Giroux's heinous atrocity perpetrated against a defenseless dinas zubris, who showed great fortitude by remaining in the game. a real warrior that guy. The flyers blew their load against the pens, had no right handed defensman and the lead dogs that made that not an issue were out for their career and beat up on their way to becoming a 5th pairing player .

are you holding out hope that we'll see the light and say "you know what B, you're right, Sid acted appropriately and has always been the model player for the league and golly i wish he was a flyer ? " that's not happening.

your guy is a lightning rod for controversy, some of it he brought upon himself and some has been thrust upon him, fairly or unfairly.

claude giroux will never be as polarizing a figure as sidney crosby. that is the curse of sidney's greatness.

What @Polaris922 said.

[mojo1917]

but I have to wonder how his career would have been followed/documented if he began his career in the mid-2000's and not the mid-80's? I'm sure much like Crosby's career, it would be magnified and dissected at every turn and on a much larger scale.

this is an interesting POV and something that I haven't really taken into consideration in Sidney's case, yet for some reason I did and do when I think of LeBron James, and that is not entirely fair. it has been stated that LeBron is the first digital age superstar, if so then Sidney is certainly the first for his sport. Tweeting, Facebook, and cell phones that take print quality pictures and HD quality movies make it more difficult to "be" in today's society .

A portion of our fanbase destroyed Mike Richards because he went out on the town, instead of staying home and studying hockey game tape and brooding over each missed assignment for the entire team...and there were pictures of his behavior that still show up here that were used to put the dot on the exclamation point. Not pictures from a "news source" but from some chick or dude's cell phone that showed a 24 year old doing what 24 year olds do. Sid would be fileted as well if similar photos were to show up with him as the "star". so i will allow that the times are different and there are more ways to step on your crank. Reputations are tough to rebuild once they're tarnished though and because of Sid's talent people will be watching to see if his character can match that talent. From where he started it's going to be an uphill battle.

[jammer2]

@mojo1917 I overlooked the whole "digital age" stuff also. It's true....it *is* tougher to be a star in today's NHL (or any sport for that matter). It's much easier to put flaws under the microscope. Example, Sid complains about a call, in the old days, the fans that caught it on tv might mention it to their buddies, then it's put to an end. In today's society, it's uploaded on U-Tube and replayed till the cows come home (with some kind of mocking music/sound effects to boot). It's actually a really solid valid point on their part.

[Polaris922]

@mojo1917 I overlooked the whole "digital age" stuff also. It's true....it *is* tougher to be a star in today's NHL (or any sport for that matter). It's much easier to put flaws under the microscope. Example, Sid complains about a call, in the old days, the fans that caught it on tv might mention it to their buddies, then it's put to an end. In today's society, it's uploaded on U-Tube and replayed till the cows come home (with some kind of mocking music/sound effects to boot). It's actually a really solid valid point on their part.

There's so much scrutiny these days I can't imagine being thrust into that barely past your 18th birthday. People forget Gretzky also had a season in the WHA to adjust as well. Only one season but it was like playing his first year in the minors. The NHL was hardly what it is today.

[sarsippius]

@Polaris922@B21@Penguins-66@DinahMoeHumm

Sadly I am 4 days late to this thread, and there's nothing to say that hasn't been said already.

So I'll just thow a Puck Fittsburgh on that, yeah that's right, not just the Penguins and their man-taint-punching captain, the whole damn town.....oh hey, but you guys are cool

[Penguins-66]

There's so much scrutiny these days I can't imagine being thrust into that barely past your 18th birthday. People forget Gretzky also had a season in the WHA to adjust as well. Only one season but it was like playing his first year in the minors. The NHL was hardly what it is today.

I can't imagine being put in his situation at such a young age. While the payoff is huge, that's a ton of pressure to have on the shoulders of an 18-year old. Much like every other athlete, there's still pressure on him to perform, but I don't think the overall pressure is anything like it was when he first stepped into the league. He has proven himself and has the hardware to prove it. He's not solely carrying a franchise on his back. He's settled in the Pittsburgh area with a new contract and mansion in Sewickly.

Like I said in a previous post, he just looks more comfortable on and off the ice. It doesn't seem like much really bothers him these days. Of course, if he's given a shot to the skull or a hack to the ankle and it goes uncalled, he's going to say something to the officials just like any other player in the league. But it seems like he is more capable of allowing the opinions of opposing fans and windbags in the national media to simply slide off his back. He has learned to not let the diminutive and petty garbage get to him.

More power to him.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Penguins-66

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922@B21@Penguins-66@DinahMoeHumm

Sadly I am 4 days late to this thread, and there's nothing to say that hasn't been said already.

So I'll just thow a Puck Fittsburgh on that, yeah that's right, not just the Penguins and their man-taint-punching captain, the whole damn town.....oh hey, but you guys are cool

Well... That's random! Lol