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Podein25

1972 Summit Series

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Can't believe no thread on it yet.

TSN has been showing the games and doing little mini-documentaries on it.

Tonight 7:30 EDT, Game 8 where Paul "I'm Such a D-bag" Henderson" scores the winner.

Clarkie will be on the TSN panel

VA.jpg

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I'm old enough to remember the series (barely). The one thing that's always bothered me is the way Clarke gets badmouthed now about his slash...OK, axe-swing, on Karmalov.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOMJsJhHlyM

I don't recall a single person back in the cold war days saying anything bad about it. On the contrary, most people thought it was great. Threat of nuclear holocaust will have that effect. Now, all the "politically correct" douchebags say things like "he should be locked up for that". Ahhh shut up! Of course no mention is made of how Karlamov was penalized almost as much as Clarke in the series. And with those cheating commie refs, that's saying a lot. :rolleyes:

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@flyercanuck Agreed....was only a matter of time until the politically correct crowd sunk their teeth into the Clarke slash. That series, as many know, went far beyond hockey...it was our way of life against theirs...losing was not an option. Clarke maintains to this day "I did what I had to do" and "I'd do it again today, no problem"....I love that about Clarkie...never holds back.

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I think it was cheap. Granted there was a lot cheap shots and things going on during this series. But I do think that was too far on Clarke's part. Canada should have been able to win on their own through creative play and just plain old good hockey instead of injuring the Soviets' star player just because they couldn't find an answer for him. No surprise that Clarke came from that team in Philadelphia that was full of criminals...

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@TretiakCCCP20  Welcome....we won, that is all that matters. I was in Grade 1 when that series happened. We stopped school to roll a tv in and watch that series, all the games that conflicted with school were watched in the classroom. Still remember the joy of Henderson's goal. Hugging friends, total elation, total joy....and the secure sense that our way of life was better than theirs. Still feel that way.

 

 How did you feel when Henderson scored?

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@TretiakCCCP20

 

 They may have been criminals, but they were our criminals.

 

 Welcome to the board.

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Thanks. I have to disagree. I've personally never liked the Flyers. I wasn't alive when Henderson scored honestly. That was 20 years before me. Looking at it now though I'd say the Soviet system was better even though Team Canada won.

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I'd say the Soviet system was better even

 

Just checking:   are you referring to hockey here or way of life?

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@ruxpin No, I'm talking about hockey. Their government and social system was inferior to ours but their hockey system was better not by much but it was still better.

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@TretiakCCCP20  Well, the society and hockey intermingled. The communist way of life was so that a young promising player would play for the Gov't/State and that was that. That was their only job, to get better at hockey, train day after day to win tournys for mother Russia. What do you think Gretzky or Lemieux, Bobby Orr, Maurice Richard..it goes on and on....would have been like, all playing with the very best of the very best Canada had to offer?

 

 

 The Russian kids considered it an honour to represent Russia, and it was engrained in them to think it was dishonorable to have any different attitude, around here, it's free choice....big difference. If a line of Gretzky, Lemieux and Yzerman trained day and night to destroy the competition, knew each others moves inside out,  they would have been literally unstoppable.

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Gretzky and Lemiuex weren't in the NHL yet and Maurice Richard was retired I believe. You can't take players from two different time periods and put them on the ice. Thats for a hipothetical situation, this is real. The reason why the Soviets were good was because they had been playing for so long together. You ever seen the movie Miracle? Kurt Russell who was playing the role of Herb Brooks said it best, "The reason all-star teams fail is because they rely solely on the individual's talent. The Soviet system focuses on the betterment of the team." The Soviet system worked. Just because it was so different than ours doesn't mean it is inferior. If you want to talk hipothetical then hear this. I guarantee that Tretiak would have been the best in the league at his position had he been allowed to play in the NHL especially in the 80's where goaltending was considered weak. Fuhr, Roy, Smith, and Hextall probably couldn't even be put in the same sentence with Tretiak had he played in the NHL.

Edited by TretiakCCCP20

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@TretiakCCCP20  I was using them as examples. I think it was rather obvious they were from different time periods. Regardless of the time period, the end result was the Russians practiced together for literally decades. The point is, if our best of any era got to play together for the time frame the Russians did, it would have never been close.  The Russians existence centered around making one specific team the best. Our players had secular things to do, things freedom bring, like living life, taking care of elderly parents, being there for your daughters graduation rather than a game in Siberia.

 

" If you want to talk hipothetical then hear this. I guarantee that Tretiak would have been the best in the league at his position had he been allowed to play in the NHL especially in the 80's where goaltending was considered weak. Fuhr, Roy, Smith, and Hextall probably couldn't even be put in the same sentence with Tretiak had he played in the NHL."

 

 Puff your chest out all you want. Your best ever LOST. Not only in the Summit Series, but in the 1980 Olympics, against a group of non professionals. Not only did he lose, he got pulled in those Olympics, cause he let in suspect goals. Real champs, they find a way to win those games. Tretiak was not fit to carry the jock strap of Ken Dryden or Bernie Parent.

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@TretiakCCCP20  This aint Russia buddy. You want to come into a new forum full of Flyer fans and make inflamatory remarks like "the Flyers were a bunch of criminals"....you get what you give around here. Show no respect you get it right back, sickle and hammer style...Tretiak choked in the big games, making him a LOSER!!

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@jammer2

Its funny because during the NHL challenge cup in 1979 the Soviets completely dominated the NHL All-Stars. The final game Tretiak didn't even play in and they kicked the crap out the NHL stars 6-0. Yeah, the Soviets were a totally big joke. I remember seeing the Soviets play the Canadiens in 76 I believe and the game ended in a 3-3 tie. The Canadiens had 37 shots on Tretiak and the Soviets had 13 on the Canadiens. Should have been a blow out but it wasn't. Not to mention Tretiak and Kharlamov are the only two players to be elected to the Hockey Hall of Fame in Toronto to never play a game in the NHL. And the Flyers are a bunch of thugs. At least they use to be. They bullied themselves to the top in 74 and 75 and people call them heroes. Its a disgrace to hockey as a sport to see a team like that be praised. The Oilers dynasty is a team that should be looked up to on the other hand.

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okay, this is in my wheelhouse, a few points.

The Soviets caught the Canadians off guard with their speed and system.

Bobby Hull, J.C. Tremblay, Derek Sanderson and Cheevers were all not allowed to participate because they had signed with the WHA.

Bobby Orr was out with his knee injuries.

With a healthy Orr and the participation of Hull, ect.. it would have been a forgotten, Canadian victory, six or seven games won easily. Easily.

The USSR had trained all year long for this event, the Canadian players were breaking camp in an era when most showed up looking to work off the 'beer weight' they had put on over the summer.

If this had been held during the regular season when the Canadian players were at peak form with or without Hull, Orr, ect.. it would have been a no brainer.

No disrespect to the USSR, some great players and a team playing a collective team game, but the scenario that played out, players out of game shape, no Orr, no Hull ect..was the perfect storm, if the Soviets could not win under those conditions there was none they ever would be able to win in. Russian hockey had gained and deserves to be remembered for it, Anatoli Tarasov was a God in the hockey world and deserves belated recognition for such, but the series was only close because of the things I mentioned. Any other scenario tilts it towards a blowout, huge win for Canada.

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@jammer2 The point of a forum is to debate. Not get mad over it fyi...

 

 Your second post ever slags the Flyers, branding them criminals? How is that debate? That is an inflammatory comment meant to incite. You slag my team, I responded in kind to yours, no biggie.

 

 Why do you hate the Flyers? Was there any specific incident that lead to this? Do you happen to know Tretiak's record against the Flyers? A club team, not an all star team, just a group of players that represented Philadelphia.

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@TretiakCCCP20

 

 The Soviet system was better? They'd played together since birth (ok slight exaggeration), while the Canadians were coming off a summer of fishing and drinking (no exaggeration) and Canada still won. And Tretiak was a very good goalie at times....hardly the best ever.

 

 Roy couldn't be put in the same sentence as Tretiak? I'm not a fan of Patrick Roy the person, but that comment throws your credibility out the window. Maybe the best money goalie of alltime. If he's not, he's certainly in the discussion.

 

  If the Summit Series was 20 years before your time, what are you basing your Tretiak/Soviet love in on. highlights?

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@flyercanuck Tretiak is at least top three. If you had read what I said I actually said that had Tretiak been allowed into the NHL goalies like Roy wouldn't be able to be put into the same sentance as him. The fact that Tretiak didn't play however, leaves that one up for debate. Honestly, I'd put Tretiak at number 2 to ever play in front of a net. Number 1 is probably Brodeur because he has like every record a goalie could possibly get and the guy has been playing like forever. Tretiak is like my idol. He played during a time that Canada had a serious ego problem and believed they were the undisputed hockey gods and that they would crush the Soviets. That series was so close nobody could be called a loser if you look at it. They were both on equal playing ground.

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@jammer2 The Flyers in the 70's played dirty hockey and dragged the game of hockey through the mud to win the cup twice. The Flyers in my opinion have the worst fans also (Almost all pro sports fans of Philly are loud, ignorant, and obnoxious in my experience). I've just never had anything great that I've experienced seeing that team play. Went a Minnesota game once and all the Philly fans were such hooligans I wanted to punch them in the face. And its easy to win against a team like the Soviets when your team advocates putting out hits on enemy players, throwing cheap shots, and playing downright dirty hockey instead of trying to beat them with skill. Like I said, the Oilers dynasty is an NHL team I admire because they won on pure skill and talent and good hockey. Messier, Gretzky, Coffey, Kurri, and McSorely just to name a few.

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@jammer2 Neither side had their very best on the ice within that series. Not just your "perfect" Canadians...And you basically just proved my point with that video when I said they won on dirty play, cheap shots, and taking out enemy players with the intent to injure. I mean god forbid if you are a Flyers player you are actually taught to use skill and trained to perfect your skills but no in the 70's if you were a Flyers player and you met a team that was better conditioned, better prepared, and just could plain out play you then you resort to "dirty hockey".

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Funny thing is I don't need to provide a video to show how since those two Stanley Cups in the 70's the Flyers haven't won it since :)

Edited by TretiakCCCP20

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@flyercanuck Tretiak is at least top three. If you had read what I said I actually said that had Tretiak been allowed into the NHL goalies like Roy wouldn't be able to be put into the same sentance as him. The fact that Tretiak didn't play however, leaves that one up for debate. Honestly, I'd put Tretiak at number 2 to ever play in front of a net. Number 1 is probably Brodeur because he has like every record a goalie could possibly get and the guy has been playing like forever. Tretiak is like my idol. He played during a time that Canada had a serious ego problem and believed they were the undisputed hockey gods and that they would crush the Soviets. That series was so close nobody could be called a loser if you look at it. They were both on equal playing ground.

 

 How can you put Tretiak top 3 when he never played in the best league in the world? Pretty hard to compare when his team went around beating a bunch of alsorans in a communist country. He basically played on a professional team that pretended to be amateurs so they could annihalate all comers. Great sportsmanship. I thought he looked good. So did Jiri Dopita until he played in the NHL. Or Krutov. Or Bryan Fogarty. Etc. Etc. Etc.

 

 Canada had a serious ego problem? LOL. I'll leave it at that.

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    • 1
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      I'm old enough to remember the series (barely). The one thing that's always bothered me is the way Clarke gets badmouthed now about his slash...OK, axe-swing, on Karmalov. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOMJsJhHlyM I don't recall a single person back in the cold war days saying anything bad about it. On the contrary, most people thought it was great. Threat of nuclear holocaust will have that effect. Now, all the "politically correct" douchebags say things like "he should be locked up for that". Ahhh shut up! Of course no mention is made of how Karlamov was penalized almost as much as Clarke in the series. And with those cheating commie refs, that's saying a lot.
    • 1
      Post
      @TretiakCCCP20  This aint Russia buddy. You want to come into a new forum full of Flyer fans and make inflamatory remarks like "the Flyers were a bunch of criminals"....you get what you give around here. Show no respect you get it right back, sickle and hammer style...Tretiak choked in the big games, making him a LOSER!!
    • 1
      Post
      The reason Kharlamov was so good was because he played with Petrov and Mikhailov on the same line. I think Kharalomov's skill was definitely increased by that fact. Still, he is probably the greatest forward to never play in the NHL.
    • 1
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      1972 Summit series: One thing to keep in mind, the Soviet players were all a part of the military. The life they lived was brutal and hockey 24/7 11 months a year BUT the alternative was to fail and get cut from the team and end up driving a tank in Afghanistan. (Okay Afghanistan was a few years into the USSR future but you get the point.) The USSR had a solid mix of forwards with varying degrees of skill but an amazing amount of collective talent. The defense was thin and not rugged, the more physical Canadian club wore the defense down easily over the course of the eight games. Nobody of any relevance was out for the USSR at least until Clarke delivered a good old fashioned two hander from Flin Flon. Missing Orr, Hull, J.C. Tremblay, Cheevers, Sanderson thinned the Canadian ranks, I brought this up before Tretiak and you did not comment on that, same as you did not comment on the fact that the NHLers were in 'working the beer gut off' shape. Quite simply the series should not and under no other circumstance would ever be close. But it gave confidence to European hockey that they could play with the big boys. Soon European Soviet Block players such as Nedomansky and the Stastny brothers defected and put their stamp on the NHL, as a wings fan I can tell you our Russian red army line of the 1990s owed its genesis to the Summit series. Kozlov, Larionov, Federov, Konstantinov and Fetisov all owe a thank you to the Soviet team of two decades earlier. NOW onto your comment that pissed off the Flyer fans in here about them being thugs and goons, of course they were, everyone was in the 1970s they did not invent it just perfected it. And nobody could win back to back championships and appear in four finals in seven years without talent, goonery was league wide, hell I sometimes wish it still was, nowadays you bump someone in the corner as the whistle blows and ten guys are face washing each other instead of two guys dropping the gloves and going to town like men. They took away the third man in, put on helmets and visors, tied down the jerseys and wimpified the game. But back to goonery, my Wings of the seventies had guys like Polonich, Maloney, Watson and Hextall who were always in the top ten in penalty minutes but we sucked anyway. Really, really sucked, sucked hard, sucked bad and sucked a lot. The dead thing era began with the retirement of Gordie and the trade of finesse player Dionne to the Kings, we fought all of the time, and nobody remembers, and do you know why? BECAUSE WE SUCKED. Fighting was part of the Flyers game, intimidation as well, hell, I still don't think I would want to fight Dave Schultz even today, but Clarkie, Barber, Leach, Parent, and so many more could play the game,even their fighters could play, Saleski was a thirty goal scorer, Schultz scored 20, Kindrachuk, Bladen was a wicked point man, Shero was the best x and o coach of the time, to write them off as pure goons is to show a lack of knowledge of the game or a desire to fame and troll. Either way, these guys from Philly in here will call you on it every time, as well they should. I still miss that era of the game when a fight every night was the norm and if you went home and your team won but their was no opponent blood scrapped off the ice by the end of the night you went home slightly disappointed. This does not make me a rube or ignorant of the history of the game, hell the seventies were not even the fightingest decade of the sport, I just like the rough and tumble stuff and feel that to insult the era is to show YOUR seeds.
    • 1
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      @flyercanuck  I think we are the best also. No ego involved, but somebody has to be the best, other countries will knock us off our perch, it's inevitable.  The USA closes the gap every year, but we are still the best. I expect the Swedes and Russians to ice some wicked teams in the coming Olympics. Ditto for the Chezh's and USA. Canada still makes up over 50% of the NHL players and I don't see any Olympic teams that have Canada's depth. Cept the goaltending....which is more of a cyclical thing than anything else. We hit a dry point with the goalies of late, but it's only a matter of time till we find a stud in goal.
    • 1
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      @ruxpin   Ha ha....smartass!!!

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