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Imminent problems with our defense


Guest RonJeremy
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Carle and Mezzaros have stepped up their games,Bourdon has been solid and brings a physical edge, Timmo has been great and Coburn also looks good. Before we go getting too excited we have to realize a few things...

Even when Prongs was in,we still needed another dman with PP skills, no one else we have has any PP QB skills. Timmo and Carle can pass,but neither has a shot

Timmo is 38, he is going to burn our with all the minutes he is playing and as the season goes on and he wears out ,we will get worse on defense

No matter how well our other guys look, none are a #1 or #2 dman and nobody back there is much of a goal scorer

Carle is an UFA who is having a career year,so he will be looking for a nice raise, is he worth the 6 million he will be looking for? You know once he gets a new deal, he will revert back to the old Carle.

Our defense was somewhere around 15 or 16th overall, so from the looks of it we need help ,with our without Pronger Are we going to stand pat and sit around waiting for a 38 yr old who has been injured for 2 years straight? I would almost guarantee Pronger is finished and even if he comes back, with the stlye he plays, how long will it take before he has another injury ? This is the perfect oppurtunity to make a move , so many of us have talked about being stuck with an aging injury prone dman and an impossible contract, this could be a blessing in disguise.

I think the best move is to try and trade for either Webber or Suter, if you take Prongers contract out and put him on LTI and we dont re-sign Carle , thats the more than enough $$ for Webber. Would you rather have Carle and pay him 6 million and hope to have an injury prone 38 year old Pronger back or would you rather have a 26 year old stud Webber and replace Carle with Gustafsson, and Bourdon stays as the 6th guy.

So you trade Carle at the deadline for a first rounder or a good young player and then you package that player/pick with Schenn and one more piece for Webber. Schenn is good, but he hasnt played at all ,so its not like we will miss him. If we cant get Webber, then you try for Suter, but you give up less.

Whether we like t or not, we have to act as if Pronger is gone for good, and in order to get a #1 or #2 dman ,Schenn will have to be the centerpiece of any trade....

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I pass on Weber. LTIR doesn't work in the summer anyway so it would be tough to not go over 10% rule. I posted in one of the million other threads that involves Weber and his blotted 7.5 million contract (8.0+ probably with his raise and NMC and NTC and 8 year deal he will want). There are other quality guys like Suter. But be cautious my friend. We will be giving up significant assets to get a guy who can walk away next year.

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Well, im sure we would try and work out a contract first, before we agreed to a trade, just like we did with Timmo and Hartnell. Would you rather pay Webber 8 million Carle 6 million? I cant see Suter getting more than 6 million... do you have any other dmen in mind? I dont think moving Carle for a good young player and packaging that with Schenn and maybe another pick for Webber as giving up too much. If Nashville wants something unreasonable ,thenyou look elsewhere. We have to get a stud, look at Timmos age, and if he gets hurt ,we are toast

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p.s. giving an 8 year, 8million dollar contract to a proven 26 year old stud like Webber, is much different than giving a long term big deal to a 35 year old Pronger like we did or 2 young underachivers like Carter and Richards. i dont think mant Flyer fans wil complain

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"underachivers like Carter and Richards"

Uh....no

Richards is a stud. one of the best 2 way players. Underachiever is a slightly hilarious description.

Even Carter could in no way be called anything but a great pick.

If anything, you could describe them as being "often injured"and perhaps "disappointing", only because they did not win two more games a few years ago.

Underachievers? that's funny

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Kimmo is 36. He will be 38 when his contract expires at the end of next season.

Also, Kimmo's ATOI this season is his lowest since his last season in Nashville. That will probably increase as the season goes on and the games become more meaningful, but Carle and Coburn are eating up a lot of those extra minutes too. Strangely enough, Bourdon had more TOI today than Coburn, but I imagine it made sense given the score.

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Carle is an UFA who is having a career year,so he will be looking for a nice raise, is he worth the 6 million he will be looking for? You know once he gets a new deal, he will revert back to the old Carle.

where are you getting $6mil for carle? out of thin air, i take it? i can see $5mil, and he'd be worth it.

as for the "old carle" thing, you mean the one who led the league in even strength scoring by defensemen last season? the one with the career +59, and has had 35 or more points in 3 of his 5 full NHL seasons? that "old carle"?

the guy was the the fans choice of for-no-reason whipping boy last season, and i can see it has stuck around. yes, webber is better, but i think the two of them would make an awesome top pair.

all of this is underscored by the fact today was one game, a game that ended a, what, 7 game winning streak? the sky isn't falling, gentlemen.

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Build the team for a deep run or play the wait game and hope one or two of the young guys can step up.

imo, you don't build a team with a injury-riddled roster for the short term. with the team depleted, it doesn't make sense to me to spend the future in hopes of maybe getting the team back up to normal through the rest of this season. now is not your team's best opportunity, so why waste assets trying to force the issue? fill any real holes that open up, but don't go all uber trading picks and prospects for a guy you don't know you can keep around.

if a deal makes as much sense for next season as it does for this, then do it. if the point is building towards a single deep run, it's never worth it.

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Aziz, I know you love Carle, and Im not arguing with your stats on him. My assumption is, if Carle continues having this great season, and with the shortage of dmen in the league, I wouldnt be surprised to see his agent shoot for a big contract, so I would think Carle is looking for a big increase. Why become an UFA jsut to make an extra million, I think he will shoot for a big raise. So my argument is this... if Carle becomes an UFA ,some team could come in and make Carle a big offer ,that we cant match, and then we get nothing for Carle or, if we sign Carle for 5 or 6 million, that pretty much eliminates us from pursuing Webber or Suter.

So I would attempt to trade Carle at the deadline and acquire Suter or Webber also at the deadline, so then ,Suter or Webber replace Pronger and Gustafsson repalces Carle. I honestly dont think Pronger is coming back. So I think we are a better team with Gustafsson and Webber than we are with Carle and an injured old Pronger who probably isnt coming back, or if he does, will surely be injured again.

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do you trade for webber or suter, even though you aren't sure you can keep them past july 1? remember, pronger's LTIR allows for a cap overage during the season, but not over the summer. webber is making $7.5mil now, and to the extent you think carle is gonna want a big raise, what do you think one of the top 4 dmen in the league is gonna want? are the flyers able to shell out $9mil for him? if not, is it worth it to have him on the team for a couple months?

besides, i don't think the escalation for non-super-elite players is going to continue. i can see carle wanting $5mil, but that's about as high as i see him going. he and his agent and other GMs in the league know he is more than competent, but not a game changer. i wouldn't be shocked if philly could re-up him for $4mil or so, with a meszaros-like deal.

like i said, if some deal presents itself that makes as much sense for october 2012 as it does for april 2012, then cool, do it. if there is the potential for it to be a rental, there is no point. imo, webber would be a rental. suter, maybe not, but then i don't think he's a huge upgrade over carle.

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i can see carle wanting $5mil, but that's about as high as i see him going. he and his agent and other GMs in the league know he is more than competent, but not a game changer. i wouldn't be shocked if philly could re-up him for $4mil or so, with a meszaros-like deal.

I think this is Holmgren's plan. Coburn signed four years for 4.5M I expect the something similar for Carle.

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We would hope teams arent going to keep giving out stupid contracts, but theres always a stupid desperate team out there to ruin our plans. Had we signed Leino during the season ,we would have had him for 2 million, once he hit the open market, Buffalo grossly overpaid for him. Look at Montreal, they just took on that loser Kaberle to go along with Gomez's horrible contract, so the stupidity continues, and defensemen are a top commodity. Of course I wouldnt make a trade for either Webber or Suter, unless I know that he will sign. Most of our deals we have made the guys have signed with us..Timmo, Hartnell, Bryz. The only guy that didnt sign with us was Hamhuis, becase he wanted to go to his hometown. Obviously our GM must be in talks with Carles agent, so we will get an idea of what he is looking for, and then we will know our options. I would think that Suter or Webber would love to come to a top orginazation like the Flyers. we really better start planning on life without Pronger. I know he is virtually irre[lacable, but the closest guy to Pronger is Webber, unless you know of a cheaper young Pronger in the making? No matter how well our dmen are playing, none can be considered a top 2 guy, so we need a top guy no matter what.

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Well, I think I can figure out why Timo, Hartnell and Bryz signed. 6.5, 4.5, and 5.5 million over longterm deals with NMCs. They all would have been crazy to turn it down.

We have a kid here in Barrie that looks like a future Pronger. He's only 15 too so we could pay him minimum wage.

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Timmo is 38, he is going to burn our with all the minutes he is playing and as the season goes on and he wears out ,we will get worse on defense

No matter how well our other guys look, none are a #1 or #2 dman and nobody back there is much of a goal scorer

Carle is an UFA who is having a career year,so he will be looking for a nice raise, is he worth the 6 million he will be looking for? You know once he gets a new deal, he will revert back to the old Carle.

I don't necessarily disagree with the main point of your post, but a couple things- Timo is 36, not 38. He'll be 37 in March. I don't see Carle getting $6 million. I'm one of his bigger fans around here but if he wants $6 million good luck to him. Five or so I could see.

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Im concerned about some stupid team outbidding us on Carle, to me if he was considered so valuable they would have chosen him over Coburn....Wiesnewski just signed for 5.5 million, so why wouldnt Carles agents look at that number, and we still have to re-sign Voracek and Jagr.

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