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"Flyers to make multiple trades"


Guest Leach27

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I don't know what you read, but Coburn is developing into exactly what his scouting reports from juniors projected him to be- a solid, smooth skating, stay at home defenseman with limited offense:

http://www.hockeysfu.../braydon_coburn

Talent Analysis

Coburn is a mostly stay at home defenseman who skates very well and makes a good outlet pass. Though not a bruiser, he uses his size to his advantage.

Future

Coburn is still loaded with all the right raw materials and his potential remains extremely high. But neither offensively gifted nor a physical force, Coburn’s career hinges on him being very solidly defensively, and that’s where he needs to improve.

Never read the analyst Jack, just heard and read the hype that people say or posted. If I read that, I wouldn't have set that high of a expectation.

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Coburn may have never turned out as good as he was expected when drafted, but for what we got him for and what he's paid, he's a pretty damn good deal in my books.

Weber is no Pronger?

I'd say over the last 2 years, and from here on in, that Pronger is no Weber. I'd take Weber over him all day long.

From now til Weber retires I would tae him over Pronger. I meant to compare them when Pronger was going into his prime like Weber is now.

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I couldn't disagree more - if I was running the show this whole "we want to win now" nonsense would vanish overnight. God I am so sick of it. Yeah right, we got swept out of the 2nd round because Pronger wasn't available. Sure. And Buff took us to 7 games for the same reason. Never mind that the whole team was a bag of dysfunction at that point, and had been since the TD.

If we gut this team for Weber we are beyond stupid and we deserve to lose for the next 40 years. Oh sure if you can get it done without giving away the store, go ahead. But it ain't happening...

agree. don't mortgage the team for webber. there are d guys out there the flyers could get for a measly draft pick that would be serviceable. we all thought this would be a somewhat of a hodgepodge rebuilding yr but it is far from that. let these young guys get the experience they need

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agree. don't mortgage the team for webber. there are d guys out there the flyers could get for a measly draft pick that would be serviceable. we all thought this would be a somewhat of a hodgepodge rebuilding yr but it is far from that. let these young guys get the experience they need

Think serviceable gets us past Boston? I don't. I mean it's all moot if Weber isn't available and Bryz continues to suck. And Bryz is supposed to be better in the regular season than playoffs...YIIIIKES!

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Bob is a more valuable chip

I'm not so sure I'd let him go no matter what comes in. Bryz continues to refuse to show he is the consistent stud we thought we signed in the offseason and to this point you still aren't sure which Bryz will show up for any particular game. I personally would like to have Bob around for at least just in case. Now that I got the rational reason out of the way, I've maintained that I don't want them to trade Bob period. I like Bob. I think Bob is going to be a great goalie and I'd rather see him be a great goalie with the Flyers. I don't care that we have a $51 mil goalie. Things can happen, things can change an I'm not sold on the fact that Bryz is going to be our #1 for all 9 years of his contract. Bob is really young and can ride out a few more years as back up getting more and more starts each season as he continues to adjust to the game. We are only one year removed from his rookie season where he still needed to adjust to the size of the rink, the speed of the game, the length of schedule and so on. He doesn't all of a sudden HAVE to be a #1 somewhere and I don't really think his being slighly overpaid for a backup is THAT big of a deal to have someone that good and has that much promise to be in the back up spot. Sure we'd like to have someone that costs less in that spot but what kind of goalie would you get anyway.

So I say forget about trading Bob, good goalies are nowhere near as common as decent forwards so if there is a position we should be looking to sacrifice to bolster another it would be that one, in my opinion.

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I'm not so sure I'd let him go no matter what comes in. Bryz continues to refuse to show he is the consistent stud we thought we signed in the offseason and to this point you still aren't sure which Bryz will show up for any particular game. I personally would like to have Bob around for at least just in case. Now that I got the rational reason out of the way, I've maintained that I don't want them to trade Bob period. I like Bob. I think Bob is going to be a great goalie and I'd rather see him be a great goalie with the Flyers. I don't care that we have a $51 mil goalie. Things can happen, things can change an I'm not sold on the fact that Bryz is going to be our #1 for all 9 years of his contract. Bob is really young and can ride out a few more years as back up getting more and more starts each season as he continues to adjust to the game. We are only one year removed from his rookie season where he still needed to adjust to the size of the rink, the speed of the game, the length of schedule and so on. He doesn't all of a sudden HAVE to be a #1 somewhere and I don't really think his being slighly overpaid for a backup is THAT big of a deal to have someone that good and has that much promise to be in the back up spot. Sure we'd like to have someone that costs less in that spot but what kind of goalie would you get anyway.

So I say forget about trading Bob, good goalies are nowhere near as common as decent forwards so if there is a position we should be looking to sacrifice to bolster another it would be that one, in my opinion.

I agree with you, but it doesn't change the fact that Bob is our best 'realistic' trading chip. I say 'realistic' because Giroux is not going anywhere, and though I don't consider anyone else an untouchable, I'm sure Homer sees things differently.

So, you've got Bob, JVR, Schenn, Couturier, and Read as our young tradeable guys. On that list, I think Bob and Couts have the most value at this point in time. Things can change quickly of course, and it's really all about who your trading partner values.

But Bob makes $1.7M for this year and next, then his contract is up. He certainly won't take a pay decrease, leaving you with the option of resigning him to $2M+ per season to backup a $5M goalie, or trading him between now and next season's deadline.

In my world, I wouldn't trade Bob either..

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agree. don't mortgage the team for webber. there are d guys out there the flyers could get for a measly draft pick that would be serviceable. we all thought this would be a somewhat of a hodgepodge rebuilding yr but it is far from that. let these young guys get the experience they need

Thats what I would rather see done. I think its also important to evaluate the team over the next couple weeks rather than looking at one horrendous game against Boston and making rash decisions. That was the kind of game where you just throw the tape away because it has no redeeming value.

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So, you've got Bob, JVR, Schenn, Couturier, and Read as our young tradeable guys. On that list, I think Bob and Couts have the most value at this point in time. Things can change quickly of course, and it's really all about who your trading partner values.

out of those guys, I'd say JVR and Schenn would be who I'd look to package. JVR is taking way to long to really wow me. I can't think of a single time when I heard anyone say "man, JVR is looking great!!!!" it's all excuses of why he hasn't returned to the form he was in last year's POs. Uhhh, what? he forget how to play hockey? Did all the money he get in the offseason distract him? Were all those extra workouts he was doing making him regress? But he IS still young and does have plenty of potential, I'm just over him at this point. Schenn is in the same boat kinda. Young, lots of potential but once again, I'm over him at this point. Sure he's been hurt but I've been un impressed with the limited sample set I've seen so far. My biggest disappointment with him was when I went to the rookie game. I had heard all the hype so I couldn't wait for the guy to dazzle in the game. Oh, and as a side note I wanted to take a look at this new rookie we just signed that probably won't make the team. Schenn should've looked like a man amongst boys and he didn't do any of the dominating I thought he should've. Harry Z caught my eye though, and I wasn't even looking for him. Couts even looked more impressive. Then I wrote that off to him playing with a lower quality team and when the preseason started I should see more..... nope, same mediocre cra... er stuff I saw in the rookie game. If he still has value, that's the way I'd go. NO WAY I let go of Read at this point. This kid's the real deal and we got him signed for 3 years at a nice price! And when Couts looks this good this young, gotta ride that out before making moves with him.

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out of those guys, I'd say JVR and Schenn would be who I'd look to package. JVR is taking way to long to really wow me. I can't think of a single time when I heard anyone say "man, JVR is looking great!!!!" it's all excuses of why he hasn't returned to the form he was in last year's POs. Uhhh, what? he forget how to play hockey? Did all the money he get in the offseason distract him? Were all those extra workouts he was doing making him regress? But he IS still young and does have plenty of potential, I'm just over him at this point. Schenn is in the same boat kinda. Young, lots of potential but once again, I'm over him at this point. Sure he's been hurt but I've been un impressed with the limited sample set I've seen so far. My biggest disappointment with him was when I went to the rookie game. I had heard all the hype so I couldn't wait for the guy to dazzle in the game. Oh, and as a side note I wanted to take a look at this new rookie we just signed that probably won't make the team. Schenn should've looked like a man amongst boys and he didn't do any of the dominating I thought he should've. Harry Z caught my eye though, and I wasn't even looking for him. Couts even looked more impressive. Then I wrote that off to him playing with a lower quality team and when the preseason started I should see more..... nope, same mediocre cra... er stuff I saw in the rookie game. If he still has value, that's the way I'd go. NO WAY I let go of Read at this point. This kid's the real deal and we got him signed for 3 years at a nice price! And when Couts looks this good this young, gotta ride that out before making moves with him.

Again, I agree with you, but you gotta give up quality to get quality.

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@Spinorama

somewhere around here was a blog post that was pinned to the top of the forum talking about patience. I don't see it anymore, i guess everyone is sick of being patient. you cannot give up on Schenn based upon his sampling this year that's just reactionary and the opposite of clever. plus if you're not bowled over by him how do you sell him to get something of value, here's this piece of crap, i hate it but you're gonna love it, how bout you give me your silver for this piece of crap...only ed wade and a couple of NBA gms make that deal.

Same with JvR everyone on here says powerforwards take time to develop , he's a power forward and he's taking time , he will be a guy that if we deal him will be a solid 30+ 35 guy for along time, mark it down.

i'm on the record here as being a weber fan, big shot , physical leadership he's got it all.... but i cannot see how it makes sense to trade 3 or 4 of these young guys and bring on that much salary for him. when we can find another coburn type, resign carle and be solid on the blue line for 4/5 years. throw money at the hole left by pronger not Danny Briere's replacement.

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@Spinorama

somewhere around here was a blog post that was pinned to the top of the forum talking about patience. I don't see it anymore, i guess everyone is sick of being patient. you cannot give up on Schenn based upon his sampling this year that's just reactionary and the opposite of clever. plus if you're not bowled over by him how do you sell him to get something of value, here's this piece of crap, i hate it but you're gonna love it, how bout you give me your silver for this piece of crap...only ed wade and a couple of NBA gms make that deal.

Same with JvR everyone on here says powerforwards take time to develop , he's a power forward and he's taking time , he will be a guy that if we deal him will be a solid 30+ 35 guy for along time, mark it down.

i'm on the record here as being a weber fan, big shot , physical leadership he's got it all.... but i cannot see how it makes sense to trade 3 or 4 of these young guys and bring on that much salary for him. when we can find another coburn type, resign carle and be solid on the blue line for 4/5 years. throw money at the hole left by pronger not Danny Briere's replacement.

I never said any of those players were crap. If they were crap, they wouldn't be good trade bait. I was just articulating that of all the valuable pieces we have on this team, they are the one's I'd be willing to part with and listed the reasons why. I was glad to see Richard's go but that didn't mean I thought he was crap. And I'm not trying to be clever with any of these moves that I just suggested. JVR isn't playing the way I'd like to see him play. That doesn't mean everyone sees him that way. He may have just stagnated with this team and a new team and new role MIGHT bring out the better in him and many other GMs might view him in the same light. Schenn is the same thing. The best player NOT playing in the NHL he still could be. We did trade Mike Richards for him but again, I'm just over him. This thread was about the Flyers making multiple moves and I would assume that means for good players. As @brelic said, you've got to trade value to get value. If I wanted crap, I wouldn't have brought up those 2 players. Doesn't make much sense to start rolling out posts that say "trade Shelley for Weber" does it?

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can't the Flyers for once have their cake and eat it too!?!

and hey, are you saying Schenn and JVR aren't quality? ;)

Haha, no, I'm not saying they're not quality! Only that I think right now, Bob and Couturier have more value. JVR might very well be up there too, I guess it depends. Turris fetched a defensive prospect, and I would think JVR has quite a bit more value than Turris.

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The only player the Flyers should consider giving a long term big money contract to in the next 2 seasons is Claude Giroux.

He is locked up for a little while. Weber would be worth the big money. He and Giroux are guys you can build a contender around for years. Then you can fill in the pieces around them. It would make sense with the moves made earlier to reintroduce some youth into this team.

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@Spinorama

I can make sandwiches from what you're laying down.

i just disagree with all whom think we need to trade lots of guys and devote much of our salary cap to weber, if he can be brought in with money then i do that, i don't trade our youth; especially at center, where we have G with a head injury that may or may not recur, Schenn with a head injury that may or may not recur and Daniel Briere who's play will level off and begin to decline, I can see this supposed strength turn to a deficiency quickly.

we've got some good defensemen under contract for the next 3 years, i think unless the deal for weber is JvR and a pick, you go for quality depth 1 through 5 by signing or trading for a boychuck type and leave that 6th spot for Gus or Bourdon.

i would totally trade shelley for weber though

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@Spinorama I can make sandwiches from what you're laying down. i just disagree with all whom think we need to trade lots of guys and devote much of our salary cap to weber, if he can be brought in with money then i do that, i don't trade our youth; especially at center, where we have G with a head injury that may or may not recur, Schenn with a head injury that may or may not recur and Daniel Briere who's play will level off and begin to decline, I can see this supposed strength turn to a deficiency quickly. we've got some good defensemen under contract for the next 3 years, i think unless the deal for weber is JvR and a pick, you go for quality depth 1 through 5 by signing or trading for a boychuck type and leave that 6th spot for Gus or Bourdon. i would totally trade shelley for weber though

You are right that we got some good defensemen but not great, that's why Homer went and got Pronger in the first place. Pronger is someone who makes the defense better, look what he did for Carle when they were paired up. I put Weber in the same category as Pronger plus he's not old like Pronger when we got Pronger. Weber is entering his prime years and will anchor our defense for a long time. Wouldn't you have loved to have Pronger in his prime?

I wouldn't give up G, Couterier or Schenn. I'll give em any other F, like you said JVR, prospect on Phantoms and picks. Forwards are easier to fil then finding a bonafide franchise defenseman and they don't come around often.

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Weber's salary will be >$8 mil and naturally he'll want multiple years. Fine. But does anyone in their right mind think JVR, Schenn and our 1st gets it done?

The book on JVR is not good; it's becoming a sad story. Two good weeks of PO hockey do not a career make - they qualify him to be a notch better than a "throw-in" bargaining chip. There aren't many left who think he'll eventually take the NHL by storm.

Schenn has been unlucky; his NHL chops are still all about potential, which was fine over the summer - maybe it still is I don't know. He's probably still considered a "blue-chip" prospect but his value has been declining the past few months, not increasing. Until he's healthy and producing I wouldn't expect Brayden Schenn to fetch a whole lot on his own.

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By "gutting the team" I meant giving up what has taken us so long to finally acquire - rookies who are producing at a high level now, guys that are contributing beyond their years. Kids like that are extremely rare. Do we really want to trade away all that exceptional talent just to buy one guy's services, a guy we really don't need?

Of course Weber would be awesome but we don't need him any more than we need Kessel or the Sedins. We've already got a very good, young team in Philly right now - except at one position but it's okay because that position doesn't matter very much anyway - ya know, goaltending. But seriously, Kimmo and Jagr are the only 2 important pieces who are a little "iffy" for next year. And I bet both of them can go at least one more season at a high level. In Philly - sad to say - it's the same old story: GOAL-FKN-TENDING.

Anyway - you want Weber, fine, just be prepared to give up a lot. Then watch as him and Bryz eat up 25% of our cap - not exactly the recipe of champions...

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@canoli

I get what you're saying but what will our d look like once Timo retires? Pronger is most likely gone, we have no clear cut top dman when those 2 are gone. Carle, Mez and Coburn are ok. Who will quaterback our PP? those 3 aren't good enough for Lavy, that's why there's 4 forwards on the PP. Weber eventually replaces Timo's salary with alittle raise.

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Well sure you have to look to the future, always, so I get the idea - I'm just saying let's not pursue such an expensive piece. Plus, these gigantic FA signings always end up burning us. Weber would almost certainly work out great and be an exception but it would still mean him and Bryz with nearly 1/4 of the cap money. For 2 players. One of whom tends to suck a lot.

I'd also add this - I think maybe you're underrating Coby, Mez and Carle. Look around the NHL who has a better top 4? In Boston it's more Thomas than anything. Fleury always makes Pitt look good, Henry in NY...etc. I guess I'm in the minority but I really like our D - all except for that final defender with the big pads.

Think of this - imagine we were getting top-flight goaltending this year - if Bryz was playing like Thomas. Would we even be having this conversation about Weber, other than as a fantasy acquisition? I don't think so. We certainly wouldn't be talking about dangling Couturier or Harry Z, Read or JVR, maybe Schenn ... plus our #1 and prob the usual 2nd-rounder... Even worse, the deal might force us to move Jake, or Briere or - can't believe I'm about to say this - not re-signing Jagr.

If we were decimated on D, if we had nobody young and promising - guys like Marshall and Gus and Bourdon - guys who've shown they can play in the NHL then I'd say go for it, grab a high-priced, marquee D-man and build your team around him. But we're past that. We righted the ship a few years ago with Pronger. We got close to the Cup with Richards and Carter. We made the Big Change this summer and we're young again with 1 older guy left on D - Kimmo. The young guys are proving themselves and the mid-20s guys - Coburn, Mez and Carle - are solid.

So...losing Pronger - we've already dealt with that pretty much. Losing Kimmo in a year or two will be an adjustment, no question. But by then Gus, MAB, Marshall - they should be solid 5/6 guys - hell they already are, almost. And who knows, maybe by then we found a way to dump Bryz - maybe somebody drops a building on him or something...or better yet he actually starts playing like a $6mil goalie...!

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Weber's salary will be >$8 mil and naturally he'll want multiple years. Fine. But does anyone in their right mind think JVR, Schenn and our 1st gets it done?

The book on JVR is not good; it's becoming a sad story. Two good weeks of PO hockey do not a career make - they qualify him to be a notch better than a "throw-in" bargaining chip. There aren't many left who think he'll eventually take the NHL by storm.

Schenn has been unlucky; his NHL chops are still all about potential, which was fine over the summer - maybe it still is I don't know. He's probably still considered a "blue-chip" prospect but his value has been declining the past few months, not increasing. Until he's healthy and producing I wouldn't expect Brayden Schenn to fetch a whole lot on his own.

.

By "gutting the team" I meant giving up what has taken us so long to finally acquire - rookies who are producing at a high level now, guys that are contributing beyond their years. Kids like that are extremely rare. Do we really want to trade away all that exceptional talent just to buy one guy's services, a guy we really don't need?

Of course Weber would be awesome but we don't need him any more than we need Kessel or the Sedins. We've already got a very good, young team in Philly right now - except at one position but it's okay because that position doesn't matter very much anyway - ya know, goaltending. But seriously, Kimmo and Jagr are the only 2 important pieces who are a little "iffy" for next year. And I bet both of them can go at least one more season at a high level. In Philly - sad to say - it's the same old story: GOAL-FKN-TENDING.

Anyway - you want Weber, fine, just be prepared to give up a lot. Then watch as him and Bryz eat up 25% of our cap - not exactly the recipe of champions...

Maybe 2 weeks of playoff hockey don't make a career, but 3 rounds made a legend out of Keith Primeau. The rest of his career was about as vanilla as JVRs has been.

I don't know why a guy like JVR lacks motivation. Cause he can be a heck of a player when he has it. I honestly don't think he really enjoys playing hockey. There's no fire, there's barely a spark. Somebody, somewhere will still think they can make this kid click.

Schenn has played 6 games. I still consider him a blue chip and I would imagine so do a lot of others. Bad luck has been his downfall. Once he's healthy and gets more than a handful of games in, he'll be fine.

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I don't know why a guy like JVR lacks motivation. Cause he can be a heck of a player when he has it. I honestly don't think he really enjoys playing hockey. There's no fire, there's barely a spark. Somebody, somewhere will still think they can make this kid click.

Bingo. I think that's the key right there.

You can see that fire in Giroux. You see it in Crosby. They *want* the puck, they *want* to get better, and they *want* to win.

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FC - ha! that's true, KP is like "legendary" to some Flyers' fans. I guess I can see a little validity to it - not "legendary" but "unique" maybe (even that's pushing it). Not even in the same sentence as Clarke or Leach or Howe - or about a hundred other Flyers... but Primeau did score the big goal in the 5 OT game, and he had that one helluva run in the POs. Other than that it's pretty ridiculous.

re: JVR, Brelic said it right, from all appearances JVR just doesn't enjoy playing the game very much. That fits with a guy who was offered a pro contract and said, "Eh...maybe in a few years after I finish college." It also fits with a guy who, to be kind is known as "streaky" - and that really is being kind to him.

I get the feeling Lavy is irritated by JVR's perimeter play and instead of sitting him he's doing the ol' reverse psychology thing now, putting him in the SO last night, keeping his minutes high, giving him PP time, etc. The problem is that doesn't seem to be having much of an effect. So he scored in his first SO attempt. And the other 65 minutes he was Mr. Invisible - again.

We shouldn't expect much return for JVR. Even scouts out West who rarely see him play can read the box scores.This was supposed to be "his year" and it's turning into last year all over again.

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