Defense is weak and our top two propects are hurt Bourdons skull is an eggshell

[flyercanuck]

I couldn't tell you for sure if anyone has hit someone like that in preseason. It wasn't that long ago the hit was legal, so it may very well have occurred. If your junior history should follow you, how come nobody elses ever did? Downie deserved a suspension. My point is, compared to what Cooke had done over and over....and over again, and the suspensions he was given, Downies was way over the top.

Wasn't Cooke more of a 'take out the guys knees" specialist in Vancouver? Then switched to giving out concussions in Pittsburgh? Or was he equally as much of an all around dirtbag on the Canucks? The NHL crackdown on headshots is likely what brought the suspensions to him in Pitt...finally! So after THIRTEEN years of Cooke being the dirtiest player in the NHL and being threatened to be thrown off the team he finally learned his lesson...how inspirational of him. maybe Downie will follow in his footsteps...IN SEVEN MORE YEARS!

I see you chose to ignore malkins cheapshots? Gary?

[pilldoc]

Both Cooke and Downie have gotten what they have deserved as far as NHL discipline. The only issue anyone can take with Cooke is that it took the league "too long" to drop the hammer. When they did, they clearly made up for lost time.

The one difference - at least for now - is that Cooke appears to have gotten the message. Downie clearly did not.

Agree with the 1st point....as far as Cooke being reabilitated.(aka "appears to have gotten the message"" ..we shall see.......after all a tiger can't change his stripes....

Edited January 14, 2013 by pilldoc

[B21]

@flyercanuck

I couldn't tell you for sure if anyone has hit someone like that in preseason. It wasn't that long ago the hit was legal, so it may very well have occurred. If your junior history should follow you, how come nobody elses ever did? Downie deserved a suspension. My point is, compared to what Cooke had done over and over....and over again, and the suspensions he was given, Downies was way over the top.

So what's the magic number then? What is worse? One horrendously bad hit (say 11 on a scale of 1-10) versus several bad hits (say 6's and 7's). Of course, that wasn't the only blemish on Downey's record at the time and hasn't been since. Again, when you factor in all the other elements...rookie, 1st preseaon, known head case, severe injury to McCrimmon, blatant attempt to injure...20 games is really not that over the top. I for one cannot recall a rookie with a history in Juniors equal to Downie who did something like that and did it that early in his career. There was no precendent because it NEVER happened before...i.e - "why nobody else ever did." Downie SET the precedent i/m/o.

Wasn't Cooke more of a 'take out the guys knees" specialist in Vancouver? Then switched to giving out concussions in Pittsburgh? Or was he equally as much of an all around dirtbag on the Canucks? The NHL crackdown on headshots is likely what brought the suspensions to him in Pitt...finally! So after THIRTEEN years of Cooke being the dirtiest player in the NHL and being threatened to be thrown off the team he finally learned his lesson...how inspirational of him. maybe Downie will follow in his footsteps...IN SEVEN MORE YEARS!

You tell me...was he like that big of a dirtbag in Vancouver? I didn't really follow Matt Cooke and really didn't hear much about him when it came to "dirtiest" players in the league. So, either he WAS that dirty and got away with until he came to Pittsburgh where players get away with "everything" (oops) or he really HASN'T been the "dirtiest player of the past 13 seasons"...only since he came to Pittsburgh for which he has been appropriately punished (abeit later rather than sooner).

BTW, that dirtiest player title was usually reserved the Otts and Averys and for Chris Pronger who after SIXTEEN years of being the dirtiest player in the league (not even debatable) was welcomed with open arms in Philly. Back to Cooke, the NHL has cracked down on those knee to knee hits, too. Cooke suspended for one of those? You call him the dirtiest player for the last 13 years? That's flabbergasting considering Pronger's resume. Of course, since he wears the O&B we forget about his past...a past way way way WAY worse than Matt Cooke.

I have no idea what Cooke did in Vancourver other than he was suspended once. I know he's been given his fair share of suspensions while a Penguin - all deserved. If you have a problem with how long it took his actions as a Penguin to catch up with him, go nuts. We agree on that point. But the league taking too long on Cooke doen't mean they were wrong on Downie and it does not mean Downie's suspension was too long.

I see you chose to ignore malkins cheapshots? Gary?

Who's ignoring? Malkin throws elbows. I've recognized that. Relevant how? The NHL not taking action on Malkin means they were unfair to poor Steve Downie??

[B21]

Agree with the 1st point....as far as Cooke being reabilitated.(aka "appears to have gotten the message"" ..we shall see.......after all a tiger can't change his stripes....

He's been clean so far this year.

[Podein25]

So what's the magic number then?

Duh.

42!

[flyercanuck]

When you watch Cookes headshots, knee takeouts, hits from behind into the boards, and there's plenty of each. it's clear of his intent to injure. When a guy makes a career of doing that, just because he, somehow, doesn't always seriously hurt someone, doesn't make the play any less dangerous as when a player does get hurt. When you continually do it for 13 years and never receive a suspension as long as a rookies first hit gets, there's something awry. That something was Campbell.The guy was a joke.

Pronger was one of the NHLs dirtiest. Pronger, as a Flyer, had 133 pims, career.. That's close to Cookes yearly average as a Pen not counting his "ultimatum" year. Pronger was nowhere near the dirty player he was at one time as a Flyer. And there was no ultimatum.

I'd have no problem with Downie getting 20 if Cooke (among others) would have got the same, on several occasions. The problem is, he never did.

Malkin is just another Pen who's been given leeway on penalties that most other players don't get by Uncle Colin and Aunt Gary. That's where this debate started.

[B21]

@flyercanuck

When you watch Cookes headshots, knee takeouts, hits from behind into the boards, and there's plenty of each. it's clear of his intent to injure. When a guy makes a career of doing that, just because he, somehow, doesn't always seriously hurt someone, doesn't make the play any less dangerous as when a player does get hurt. When you continually do it for 13 years and never receive a suspension as long as a rookies first hit gets, there's something awry. That something was Campbell.The guy was a joke.

If you want to keep making Cooke's "career" body of work an issue that is more than OK by me. It makes my point. Again, I have no idea what he was like as Canuck other than 1 suspension. But if his entire career has been littered with Downie-like actions as you say (I'll take your word for it) then your stance with him not getting his comeuppance soon enough for you has ZERO to do with the fact that he's been a Penguin since 2008. He was getting off easy long before the Pens signed him apparently. After they did though, there were quite a few suspensions including a 17 gamer. Your issue is with the league not taking action on Matt Cooke sooner - i.e while he was in Vancouver. Not Matt Cooke the Penguin. If the league were truly biased to favor the Pens, why not just keep giving the guy a pass like they did for 8 years in Vancouver?

So while Malkin may be just another Penguin getting leeway on penalties, Matt Cooke the Penguin is not.

Pronger was one of the NHLs dirtiest. Pronger, as a Flyer, had 133 pims, career.. That's close to Cookes yearly average as a Pen not counting his "ultimatum" year. Pronger was nowhere near the dirty player he was at one time as a Flyer. And there was no ultimatum.

It's not PIM that make Pronger the dirtiest player to lace up skates in the last 15 years. 8...EIGHT...suspensions. All deserved. Not just for wayward elbows and hits from behind. We are talking sticks to the head and throat, skate stomping, kicking...the lowest of the low...none of which Cooke has ever done. I could care less that he behaved for the season and a half he played regularly with the Flyers. That's only a half season longer than Cooke's well behaved year...ultimatum or not. Yet not one single solitary poster from this forum or the old one had ANY issue with him AT ALL for that reason. Cooke gets killed for a body at work that does not come close to Pronger AND is routinely tossed around as an example of the league showing favoritism towards the Pens even though 4 of his 5 career suspensions and 25 of the 27 games he has been suspended for have occurred while he was with the Penguins....though he's only been with the Penguins for 4 of his 12 years in the league.

I'd have no problem with Downie getting 20 if Cooke (among others) would have got the same, on several occasions. The problem is, he never did.

To which I'll argue there was not one single act by Cooke that was as bad as what Downie did to McCammond. None of Cooke's acts in and of themselves called for 20 games. Not even close. 2-4 each. By the 5th, the league had enough. 17 games. As best as I can recall, there has not been another NHL player to do something as egregious as Downie before he even takes a shift during the regular season. If that hit happens 5 years into Downie's career during the regular season he's not getting 20 games.

Malkin is just another Pen who's been given leeway on penalties that most other players don't get by Uncle Colin and Aunt Gary. That's where this debate started.

Malkin gets away with those elbows...he also gets caught a lot, too. He's in the 80-100 PIM range each year. That's a not the resume of a guy who the league is letting run wild. Those elbows tend to fly when he is frustrated and that tends to happen when the Pens play the Flyers unfortunately.

[mojo1917]

Malkin gets away with those elbows...he also gets caught a lot, too. He's in the 80-100 PIM range each year. That's a not the resume of a guy who the league is letting run wild. Those elbows tend to fly when he is frustrated and that tends to happen when the Pens play the Flyers unfortunately.

I'll say this about evgeni's elbows and then bow out, he does spend a fair amount of time in the bin.

He doesn't ever seem to be a candidate for the league's "supplemental discipline". which for a guy that targets the head with his elbows seems like a double standard. at least to me.

here's a question is raffy torres the new "dirtiest player" title holder ?

[DaGreatGazoo]

All is right in the world again. A thread about the Flyers lack of D has progressed(?) to a disagreement between Flyers and Pens fans. I LOVE IT!!

Oh, and Cooke, Crosby and Malkin ALL suck. Carry on.

[B21]

I'll say this about evgeni's elbows and then bow out, he does spend a fair amount of time in the bin.

He doesn't ever seem to be a candidate for the league's "supplemental discipline". which for a guy that targets the head with his elbows seems like a double standard. at least to me.

here's a question is raffy torres the new "dirtiest player" title holder ?

Just throwing this out there (and not meant to defend Malkin of justifiy his actions) but seeing more Pens games here than anyone except the Pens posters, most of these wayward elbows come when he and another player are in close proximity. Two guys fighting for the puck...Malkin gets a shove into the boards...takes exception...throws the high elbow. Puck gets poke checked...takes exception...throws the high elbow. Compare that to Cooke or Raffi who come flying in from (usually) a players blind side with momentum and target the head. Neither good but one definitely worse than the other. No one has been suspended for those "sneaky" elbows. Nor should they be. Those are the 2:00 types. Not 2 games types as the Cooke, Torres, et al are. And those he HAS been called for many times.

As for Raffi....yes....when Pronger officially retires.

[DaGreatGazoo]

Good to see you back, B21! Bring on the hockey!

[flyercanuck]

@B21

I'm sure if you asked Dean MacCammond if Downies suspension was warranted, he would agree it was. I'm sure if you asked all the people whose careers Cooke seemed bent on trying to end if his suspensions were justified, I'm sure most would call them a joke (as I've heard many NHLers say). The fact he did it in Vancouver, then Washington, then continued if not escalated his foul play, and yet still was never suspended as long as Downie shows nothing but an uneven disciplinary committee.Of course if Bobby Clarke was handing out the sentences it might just be the other way around, but he wasn't.

I said Pronger was dirty...he'd just lost most of that part of his game by the time he came to Philly. So Cooke never stooped to Prongers level of dirty play? Oooookay... Ask fans of teams other than the Pens on that one...and they certainly don't have to be Flyer fans. Drilling guys heads into the boards from behind is about as bad as you can get IMO. Kicking? Cooke would never do that...oh that's right, he has...kicked a guy in the head.

Cookes suspensions only 'called" for short stints cause of who was handing them down, and no other reason. Like I said, get Clarke to hand out punishment and listen to the Pen fans say what Flyer fans (and others) have said.

I see Malkin get 2 minute penalties. Explain away the non-suspension for the message sending fight in the finals. And that isn't even an Uncle Colon call, it's in the rule book.

Anyway, we aren't going to agree, and that's cool. Beats talking lockout bs. Cheers B21!

[Polaris922]

Defending Steve Downie is impossible. He received fair punishment.

Defending Cooke is impossible. He has also received fair punishment.

Defending Chris Pronger is impossible. He has received MOSTLY fair punishment. His reputation as an all star player saved him some games along the way. That's the nature of the NHL. He who helps ticket sales gets leniency.

Defending Evgeni Malkin is impossible. He has received fitting penalties for his elbows which as stated are not intent to injure type plays. He sits in the box as deserved. If one or two seemed reviewable, again, he who helps ticket sales gets leniency.

The point is the uniform doesn't matter. The PLAYER however, sure does. Hartnell gets away with loads of crap. Crosby, Giroux, Letang's, Briere... They all do because they sell tickets. AND I firmly believe officials know who's who out there, and who's truly scum and who's not.

[pilldoc]

All is right in the world again. A thread about the Flyers lack of D has progressed(?) to a disagreement between Flyers and Pens fans. I LOVE IT!!

Oh, and Cooke, Crosby and Malkin ALL suck. Carry on.

It brings balance to the force!

LETS GO FLYERS!!

[jammer2]

@B21 You should have seen Cooke in junior, he was much worse. His reign of terror was infamous. He would spear you in the face, balls, without even batting an eyelash. Cheap shot did not cover it, it was really off the charts. He did stuff that even the hard core violence loving fans of Windsor would cringe at. The dirtiest player I ever witnessed in my 35+ years of OHL watching. It was that bad.

[flyercanuck]

@B21 You should have seen Cooke in junior, he was much worse. His reign of terror was infamous. He would spear you in the face, balls, without even batting an eyelash. Cheap shot did not cover it, it was really off the charts. He did stuff that even the hard core violence loving fans of Windsor would cringe at. The dirtiest player I ever witnessed in my 35+ years of OHL watching. It was that bad.

Take note B21. Downie was NOT the anti-Christ coming out of junior. He was merely Lucifer-lite.

[Vanflyer]

Defending Steve Downie is impossible. He received fair punishment.

Downie changed his game allot once going to Colorado last year. He actually played pretty decently (20 gp / 13 pts / + 9 / 16pims: that translates to 53 points, +36 and 65 pims over a full season).

[B21]

Take note B21. Downie was NOT the anti-Christ coming out of junior. He was merely Lucifer-lite.

I surrender. Damn Canuck bias. At least the NHL finally got to him after he changed teams.

[B21]

Downie changed his game allot once going to Colorado last year. He actually played pretty decently (20 gp / 13 pts / + 9 / 16pims: that translates to 53 points, +36 and 65 pims over a full season).

That's what makes it more disappointing. He actually has talent unlike most headcases.

[B21]

Good to see you back, B21! Bring on the hockey!

Not to quote a lame Patrick Swayze move but....ditto.

[B21]

@B21

I'm sure if you asked Dean MacCammond if Downies suspension was warranted, he would agree it was. I'm sure if you asked all the people whose careers Cooke seemed bent on trying to end if his suspensions were justified, I'm sure most would call them a joke (as I've heard many NHLers say). The fact he did it in Vancouver, then Washington, then continued if not escalated his foul play, and yet still was never suspended as long as Downie shows nothing but an uneven disciplinary committee.Of course if Bobby Clarke was handing out the sentences it might just be the other way around, but he wasn't.

I said Pronger was dirty...he'd just lost most of that part of his game by the time he came to Philly. So Cooke never stooped to Prongers level of dirty play? Oooookay... Ask fans of teams other than the Pens on that one...and they certainly don't have to be Flyer fans. Drilling guys heads into the boards from behind is about as bad as you can get IMO. Kicking? Cooke would never do that...oh that's right, he has...kicked a guy in the head.

Cookes suspensions only 'called" for short stints cause of who was handing them down, and no other reason. Like I said, get Clarke to hand out punishment and listen to the Pen fans say what Flyer fans (and others) have said.

I see Malkin get 2 minute penalties. Explain away the non-suspension for the message sending fight in the finals. And that isn't even an Uncle Colon call, it's in the rule book.

Anyway, we aren't going to agree, and that's cool. Beats talking lockout bs. Cheers B21!

Indeed! Cheers!

[Vanflyer]

That's what makes it more disappointing. He actually has talent unlike most headcases.

Yes, he is not a Cooke- thats for sure. He can play hockey without the need to be a cheap shot. I think Downies issues are more a lack of control on his anger where-as Cookes are pre-meditated meanness. Cooke has always been a mucker and does not have the skill of a Downie.

[B21]

Yes, he is not a Cooke- thats for sure. He can play hockey without the need to be a cheap shot. I think Downies issues are more a lack of control on his anger where-as Cookes are pre-meditated meanness. Cooke has always been a mucker and does not have the skill of a Downie.

Talent? Agree...he has more talent than Cooke. But he is as big a cheap shot artist as Cooke if not bigger. Hard to prove/disprove any of what either of them has done as being "premeditated" though. I'll reserve that for the McSorleys and Bertuzzis.

[Vanflyer]

But he is as big a cheap shot artist as Cooke if not bigger. Hard to prove/disprove any of what either of them has done as being "premeditated" though.

At least with downie, he is willing to answer the bell. Cooke (with exception to two years ago), generally runs and hides.

[doom88]

It's hard to have a history when the NHL selectively sweeps it under the rug. Malkin and Neal go headhunting last post-season and successfully injure players, while Crosby successfully breaks Giroux's wrists AND jokes about it in the press. Let's not forget Kunitz taking out Timonen on a knee on knee which apparently wasn't, successfully injuring Timonen for the rest of the playoffs (and changing the tide in the series for Pit to win).

Look, Downie isn't the rosiest example (understatement), but Philly regularly gets shafted relative to their cross-state friends. How would you like it if a Flyer "jumps to protect himself" while actually headhunting, or elbows your strongest defenseman in the head behind the play with no call? You wouldn't like it. And that's the same reason why fans on this forum don't like it.

I've posted laundry lists of things your guys have done and gotten away it. That works both ways. Not to mention....none of that has anything to do with Downie. Flyers. Pens. Not even part of the equation. If we are talking strictly about Downie....he had proven more than worthy of every suspension ever assessed and then some.

I mentioned Downie since it was already in the thread. I'm not going to defend Downie fully, just as far as saying that his suspension with no NHL history is rather...unprecedented...at least in relation to ALL other players up to that point.

Yes, I know Briere is a diving whining, diving, somewhat careless player with the stick. I won't argue against it, and I agree - and that's a strong part of why I never wanted Briere to be considered for captaincy of the Flyers.

I will say, you largely sidestepped the crux of my post and tried to parry. I just get irritated when your fan base (generally) acts like it's okay when Pit does it because Philly does. Truth be told, it isn't okay when EITHER team pulls that kind of crap. So no, don't run your "it goes two ways" crap with me. Your team has a bunch of dirtbags and they get away with it due to their darling status with the NHL. While I do not like wishing injuries on players, I would LOVE Pit to reap what they sow, especially with regard to the deliberate injuries they inflict in the playoffs. Maybe someone could take out Letang's knee or skull, Crosby or Malkin's wrists, etc etc and you'd understand what I mean. And my distaste certainly runs back to that asshole Kasparaitis.

In the end, it's nothing personal against you. But paraphrasing the childish words of your leader, I just don't like those guys.