Our defensive situation

[RonJeremy]

Here is my assesment of our defense....We definitely have some good size, Grossman, Schenn, Coburn, Mez, Foster all haver size, and sme of these guys can hit, Timmo is the only small guy. As far as good shots from the point, we have, Mez and Timmo, who can shoot, although their shots are not exactly accurate, and none are gonna score more than5- 10 goals at best. I know Foster has a rocket, but i have not seen enough of him ..... Now for the weakest point...puck rushing and offensive creativity, Coburn can rush the puck, but he has little playmaking skill,and zero finishing skills. Timmo can also rush the puck, but is not much of a scorer either. So if either Gus or Bourdon can come back, eventually they can add an ingredient we are missing, neither of these guys are Denis potvin, but if they can add a little more puck rushing/scoring ability to ur blueline in theory. I say in theory because both have offensive potential, but have not exactly put up any impressive numbers, but at this point they are the only "offensiive" dmen we have.

[Phlyer1]

The only thing I thought was not right with the D was it looks like Grossman lost a step?

[PhilsFanDrew]

@RonJeremy

I know he was a frustrating player to many fans but this team is missing Matt Carle right now. He was everything you said they are missing and Homer let him walk. I don't like the salary he got in TB but in todays NHL that is the going rate.

[Howie58]

Greetings:

I posted on the game thread but repeat part of it here; I worry about the speed of this D against skill players. This has been an issue against Buffalo in the past but it's one that we may be "hitting" again. And Grossman's penalties may reflect some injury-related slowdown.

Best,

Howie

[hf101]

As far as good shots from the point, we have, Mez and Timmo, who can shoot, although their shots are not exactly accurate, and none are gonna score more than5- 10 goals at best. I know Foster has a rocket, but i have not seen enough of him ..... Now for the weakest point...puck rushing and offensive creativity, Coburn can rush the puck, but he has little playmaking skill,and zero finishing skills. Timmo can also rush the puck, but is not much of a scorer either. So if either Gus or Bourdon can come back, eventually they can add an ingredient we are missing,

Bourdon is out indefinitely with a concussion. I honestly don't think he will be playing this season. And anyways Bourdon really isn't that much of an offensive defenseman.

So why do you think Gus is better than Foster? Did you not see his shot from the point today that Couturier tipped in?

Here is a video from last year, maybe it will jog your memories.

[ZeZel25]

Here is my assesment of our defense....We definitely have some good size, Grossman, Schenn, Coburn, Mez, Foster all haver size, and sme of these guys can hit, Timmo is the only small guy. As far as good shots from the point, we have, Mez and Timmo, who can shoot, although their shots are not exactly accurate, and none are gonna score more than5- 10 goals at best. I know Foster has a rocket, but i have not seen enough of him ..... Now for the weakest point...puck rushing and offensive creativity, Coburn can rush the puck, but he has little playmaking skill,and zero finishing skills. Timmo can also rush the puck, but is not much of a scorer either. So if either Gus or Bourdon can come back, eventually they can add an ingredient we are missing, neither of these guys are Denis potvin, but if they can add a little more puck rushing/scoring ability to ur blueline in theory. I say in theory because both have offensive potential, but have not exactly put up any impressive numbers, but at this point they are the only "offensiive" dmen we have.

My assesment about the D is... We have a guy (Foster) who plays small. Schenn was/is always flat footed too me ever since he played for the queefs. Grossman just doesnt look right. Mezz might not be 100% already and I can see Timmo getting injured playing all these minutes. The only people on this team that are playing well are Simmonds,G and Laughton. Nobody is crushing anyone on D with this Size while I've seen them get drilled quite a bit so far. While Bryz isnt great , this defense is horrific so far, just like last year. If this team keeps on this path you have to wonder about Lavy's future because Homer wanted a more defensive minded approach.

[RonJeremy]

HG101, go back and read my post, I never said Bourdon or Gus are better than Foster, I said Foster had a big shot... I said we have no one to rush the puck, no one with real finishing skills or playmaking from the blueline, and I said theoretically Bourdn and Gus can help us in that dept, cause they they are considered offensive dmen, and at this point they are the only NHL ready dmen we have, and yes I know they are both out, and I wrote another post that Bourdon has had 3 or 4 concussions in less than a year and since he was knocked senselss in a fight in the minors, he now has an eggshell head, I wouldnt be surprised if he never came back... so far we have been horrible on the PP since no one on our D can hit the net and none have playmaking ,passing vision to setup some nice plays.

[Mad Dog]

so far we have been horrible on the PP since no one on our D can hit the net and none have playmaking ,passing vision to setup some nice plays.

That sums it it all up right there. And the only thing that surpises me is that people are actually surprised. Carle is gone, Homer failed to sign any mobile, rush-starting defenseman who can at least on occasion move the puck up the ice, and Timomen (as good as as he looked so far in these two games) isn't exactly a 20 year-old... I mean what else is there to expect?

So far this defense is playing *exactly* the way they should have been expected to play.

[mojo1917]

so how's it working out without Matt Carle ?

I haven't watched minute 1 of the season since i had tix to the AHL outdoor classic, so i haven't put my eyeballs on this situation, however, there are a pile of threads about our defense, and well i guess everyone that though he ( Carle )sucked is (as i predicted) wondering what the problem is with our defense.

i knew we would miss what he brought and that it would be a little while until the unit as constructed gels, certainly more than 8 games will be required to get our act together and get the forwards chipping in more on defensively , this will change how we break out and will probably take some time to get some cohesion and some continuity. the problem with this season is there isn't much time.

i'll start freaking out when we're 0-8 and look like the keystone cops.

[jackhole]

We ought not to forget that the hole left, even at his advanced age, by Pronger is GAPING! Bringing in Weber would've really helped here, but look, I don't want to hear Matt Carle this Matt Carle that. It doesn't matter. Let's not forget, this D sucked famously last year with Carle. It would be an impressive feat if they can match that amount of suckitude this year. Last time Carle was an asset he was paired with Pronger.

Point is, Carle is no difference maker. With him we're still 0-2 and that much nearer the salary cap.

If there is no franchise defensman to lead this group, then what is needed is a true unified ethic in defensive coverage that doesn't slip for a single shift! And that is very hard to maintain and not likely under the style of play we now implement, fun as it is to watch.

Edited January 22, 2013 by jackhole

[jammer2]

@mojo1917 You were probably right about Carle, but I'm still glad he is gone. I know he has a specific skill set...but I could not stomach giving Mr.Softie 5 mill+ a year for many years. True, we don't have a puck carrier/ragger, but I'm not shedding any tears.

[mojo1917]

@jammer2

The price was too high, I agree.

I reckon the GM was thinking Gus would be available to be the wheels/offensive minded d-man, and he may yet be that guy, just he's not available now. Which is unfortunate, It would be nice to know you have a guy that will win a race to the corner and beat the forecheck with a crisp outlet. Carle did that a lot.

Again I haven't seen the boys play yet so, I don't have the eyeball test, but I had no doubt we'd being seeing these, "our d is awful" etc threads, especially early in the year.

[hf101]

HG101, go back and read my post, I never said Bourdon or Gus are better than Foster, I said Foster had a big shot... I said we have no one to rush the puck, no one with real finishing skills or playmaking from the blueline, and I said theoretically Bourdn and Gus can help us in that dept, cause they they are considered offensive dmen, and at this point they are the only NHL ready dmen we have, and yes I know they are both out, and I wrote another post that Bourdon has had 3 or 4 concussions in less than a year and since he was knocked senselss in a fight in the minors, he now has an eggshell head, I wouldnt be surprised if he never came back... so far we have been horrible on the PP since no one on our D can hit the net and none have playmaking ,passing vision to setup some nice plays.

On one hand here you are stating there is no one to make plays from the point, then you're are stating that there is no one with finshing skills, and next you mention no one who has playmaking skills from the blue line.

You are all over the place here. Foster has a really hard shot. Did you not see the top shelf shoot out goal against Leighton in the open practice for the fans? Did you not see the Goal yesterday that Couturier tipped in from a blueline shot on the PP from Foster? He has played two games thus far.

Our PP was also missing Danny Briere, don't blame all the problems on the PP on the D-men.

Last I remember Timonen still can make plays from the blueline. Coburn can move the puck up ice and pass as well. Mesz hasn't played in a very long time......the team practiced for 6 days.

Finishing skills are for the forwards imo, can a d-men step up into the play?, yes. But I don't see that as a major Laviolette concern right now.

[Mad Dog]

Again I haven't seen the boys play yet so, I don't have the eyeball test, but I had no doubt we'd being seeing these, "our d is awful" etc threads, especially early in the year.

I wouldn't call our D awful, no. In fact, when they learn how to play together, this should be a decent unit in terms of clearing the crease, moving bodies, and hitting - in other words, what defense is actually supposed to do. But the lack of mobility, offensive prowess, and puck carrying ability are not the qualities we should expect out of these guys. They simply don't possess it. That's where the Flyers will get hurt the most. Coburn has speed and can at times master a decent shot on goal, but he is not a true offensive defenseman. Kimo looked like our best d-man in the last two games, but at the rate he was used in these two games, he just won't have much left by the time the regular season is over, even in an abbreviated season. And after that, we have slow, stay-home (and I would even say mistake-prone) defensemen. I just think this is something to get used to.

[jammer2]

@Mad Dog I think Bourdon had one of the better shots from the point, certainly one of the heaviest, so it's a shame he is hurt, maybe he could have weaseled his way unto the pp. Hope his head is not mush, but I'm not holding my breath either.

[Polaris922]

Carle is missed.

[Mad Dog]

@Mad Dog I think Bourdon had one of the better shots from the point, certainly one of the heaviest, so it's a shame he is hurt, maybe he could have weaseled his way unto the pp. Hope his head is not mush, but I'm not holding my breath either.

I have almost no doubt he would've made the team. In fact, before he got concussed and it was made known he is out, I called for him to have a breakout season. I also suspect if it wasn't for his inury, Homer wouldn't have made a trade for Foster. It really is a shame...

[Mad Dog]

Carle is missed.

He is... at least right now and at least in that one area - rushing the puck out of the zone, joining the rush, and getting a quick shot on net. But I also agree with those who say he was not worth getting what Tampa gave him. He had way too many missed assignments, played much softer than his frame, and in many games has been a defensive liability. And with a sieve of a goaltender that we have, the team could ill afford that.

[krasy]

Just to remind you guys - basicly every D pairing this season is new. Schenn and Foster are new to the club and the system. So i thing it will be fair to give them some time to gell. Expecially with a 6 day traning camp.

Mez and Gross also comming from injuries.

[Polaris922]

He is... at least right now and at least in that one area - rushing the puck out of the zone, joining the rush, and getting a quick shot on net. But I also agree with those who say he was not worth getting what Tampa gave him. He had way too many missed assignments, played much softer than his frame, and in many games has been a defensive liability. And with a sieve of a goaltender that we have, the team could ill afford that.

I guess whether he is worth it or not remains to be seen in Tampa. Thing is... that kind of defenseman is going for that kind of money these days. Last season Carle out-produced Ehrhoff, Myers, Gonchar, Wisniewski, Seabrook, Bouwmeester, Doughty, Green, Burns, Markov, Garrison, and Whitney... all of whom make more than Carle and over $5 million a year. Some of those guys contribute in other ways, sure, but let's face it, a lot of salary is determined by point production.

[jackhole]

Carle is missed.

Ha! I have no doubt you miss Carle in O & B;)

[Polaris922]

Ha! I have no doubt you miss Carle in O & B;)

You missed a lot of earlier posts bud but the truth is he was the ONLY defenseman you guys had that was a threat to actually DO something with the puck. Timo is not that guy anymore and Meszaros never was. Bueller.... Bueller... Bueller...

[mojo1917]

@jackhole

The notion that Carle was not a good player for us is absurd, I do not think he's a #1 defenseman and the salary he was looking for was #1 money. There isn't a team in the league that would not benefit from having a guy with Carle's skill set on their roster. Our team would certainly be better if he would have stayed.

[RonJeremy]

HF101, Im not disputing fosters big shot, but he cant rush the puck from the defensive zone into the offensivs zone and create plays, he is strictly a point shot for the PP, which is fine since most of our dmen miss the net by 10 feet. When I say finishing skills , I mean when a dman has the sense to know exactly when to jump in on an offensive play to score a goalclose in at the net. I was not all over the place I was listing different attributes or lack of, for each of our dmen. Mez has a big shot but its not that accurate, and neither is Timmos. Timmo has missed a number of wide open point shots on the PP already this year, and he hasnt scored much over the last few years...Coburn scored in his rookie season and hasnt come close to that offensive out put. Someone else posted we need to play more defensive ,since thats the strength of our dmen, and hes right, we have big strong dmen who should be taking the body and playing defense. Why do you think Homer hired Terry Murray, you watch if Lavvy fails, he will be fred and Murray will be the coach and change to a defensive stlye. You think Murray whos been an NHL coach for 20 years is gonna stay in the minors, he is in the on deck circle to replace Lavvy...

[jackhole]

@Polaris922

I actually didn't miss those earlier discussions on Carle, and I don't dispute your comment. Flyers have a sad sack defense right now. Given the availibities of players last summer I would've re-upped carle for 3mill, not 5. At that rate, I don't miss him.