Tanking Penguins

[aziz]

@Polaris922

Heading towards the end of the season ahead of the New Jersey Devils, who were placed last, the Penguins made a number of questionable moves that appeared to weaken the team in the short-term. The Penguins posted three six-game winless streaks in the last 21 games of the season (out of which they won only three) and earned the right to draft Lemieux amidst protests from Devils president Bob Butera.[4] Pittsburgh coach Lou Angotti later admitted that a conscious decision was made to end with as the team with the worst record, stating in an interview with the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette that a mid-season lunch prompted the plan, in light of the fact that there was a high chance of the franchise folding if Lemieux was not drafted.[5] In particular, Angotti gave the example of a game the Penguins were winning 3–1, at which point general manager Eddie Johnston asked the coach "what are you doing?" in the first intermission of the game that was eventually lost 6–3. The Penguins were still, despite losing ten of their last twelve games, only two games away from losing Lemieux to the Devils.[5] However, Angotti stated that he did not feel comfortable with the plan, even though it worked and saved the franchise.

lies? i can't find the actual quote from angotti where he "admitted that a conscious decision was made to end with as the team with the worst record," during a mid-season lunch. did it not happen? the quotes were apparently made to the post-gazette, though it's site doesn't seem to have them posted anymore.

also:

Management, however, made a number of personnel moves that made it possible for the Penguins to slip past New Jersey and into last place in the overall standings as the season was winding down.

The most striking was trading one of the Penguins' few significant talents, defenseman Randy Carlyle, to Winnipeg for absolutely nothing -- right away, at least. Oh, the Penguins got a pretty fair return in that deal -- a first-round draft choice that became Doug Bodger, along with defenseman Moe Mantha -- but Bodger wasn't drafted until a few months after the season and Mantha was a player-to-be-named, which means he wasn't officially identified as part of the trade until the Jets' season was over.

Also, there was an instance when goalie Roberto Romano had the temerity to string together a couple of strong starts late in the season, at which point general manager Ed Johnston sent him to the Penguins' farm team in Baltimore and brought up goalie Vincent Tremblay because "we want to see what he can do." What the front office almost certainly realized was that the list of things that Tremblay could do -- or at least, that he could do well -- at that point in his career did not include stopping hockey pucks with any regularity.

Tremblay, it should be noted, didn't disappoint. He went 0-4, with a 6.00 goals-against average, in what proved to be his final four appearances in the NHL.

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/penguins-questions/did-the-pens-tank-the-83-84-season-to-get-lemieux-371910/

Edited February 5, 2013 by aziz

[aziz]

Anybody with open eyes can see Crosby, Malkin, and anyone else couldn't be fixed.

how's that? do you really think that the board of governors is too pure and honest to play some games to keep one of its franchises afloat? especially a franchise owned by the guy responsible for pulling the league up a level or two or four on the recognition front?

[brelic]

Can any of you please tell me what they did to 'throw games' as keeps being stated? Nobody admits to it, and statute of limitations is well expired so no legal concerns there. In fact, they only say they DIDN'T throw games they just weren't going to be upset about losing them.

Nobody here has shown me how they did this terrible thing. What exactly did they do? I've given a few examples of what they DID do. I.e. replace their goalie who had 8 wins, lost fewer games to end the season than Jersey, kept a 50 goal scorer on the ice, lost only 2 more games than the year before but without Kehoe, Gardner or Carlyle...

The only thing I get in return is "they admit it!" Yet no statement or quote admitting anything but that they wouldn't be upset about losing. I've looked for such comments. I want to know if there's truth to it. But I can't find any and apparently neither can you. *shrugs*

Sorry boys but they really were THAT bad. The ONLY move that hurt the team was trading Carlysle away but they got decent return for him in the end so I dunno... Show me the sabotage please.

And don't even try to say it happened more than once. You're failing to substantiate even once, let alone twice. Anybody with open eyes can see Crosby, Malkin, and anyone else couldn't be fixed.

They didn't know what they were getting for Carlyle until AFTER the season. They basically gave him away for nothing.

From the Pittsburgh Post Gazette:

MOLINARI: Depends on exactly who you're talking about.

If it's the players, no way. Those guys were bad enough that they came by their 16-58-6 record honestly. And really, why would players -- especially centers, in the case of that particular group -- lose intentionally so that their employer could get in position to bring in someone who would be more a threat to take their job?

Management, however, made a number of personnel moves that made it possible for the Penguins to slip past New Jersey and into last place in the overall standings as the season was winding down.

The most striking was trading one of the Penguins' few significant talents, defenseman Randy Carlyle, to Winnipeg for absolutely nothing -- right away, at least. Oh, the Penguins got a pretty fair return in that deal -- a first-round draft choice that became Doug Bodger, along with defenseman Moe Mantha -- but Bodger wasn't drafted until a few months after the season and Mantha was a player-to-be-named, which means he wasn't officially identified as part of the trade until the Jets' season was over.

Also, there was an instance when goalie Roberto Romano had the temerity to string together a couple of strong starts late in the season, at which point general manager Ed Johnston sent him to the Penguins' farm team in Baltimore and brought up goalie Vincent Tremblay because "we want to see what he can do." What the front office almost certainly realized was that the list of things that Tremblay could do -- or at least, that he could do well -- at that point in his career did not include stopping hockey pucks with any regularity.

Tremblay, it should be noted, didn't disappoint. He went 0-4, with a 6.00 goals-against average, in what proved to be his final four appearances in the NHL.

As the season was entering its latter stages, Bob Butera, then president of the Devils, publicly accused the Penguins of making a concerted effort to lose so that they would end up with the No. 1 choice in the draft. Coach Lou Angotti reacted bitterly to the charge, and it was obvious that every one of his team's many defeats that winter took something out of him. (It was a horrific season, by any measure, for Angotti, who lost a son in an auto accident during his lone year behind the bench.)

Despite the Penguins' vigorous protests that they were trying to win as often as possible, they stumbled to the finish line with 3-17-1 record -- a stretch that included two six-game losing streaks and one 0-5-1 run -- and a few months later, drafted Lemieux, whose arrival did nothing less than save the franchise. The Devils ended up with Kirk Muller, along with a strong sense of self-righteousness.

And more sources:

The team had the league's worst record in both the 1983 and 1984 seasons, and with the team suffering financial problems, it again looked as though the Penguins would fold. Mario Lemieux, one of the most highly touted NHL draft picks in history, was due to be drafted in the 1984 NHL Entry Draft. Heading towards the end of the season ahead of the New Jersey Devils, who were placed last, the Penguins made a number of questionable moves that appeared to weaken the team in the short-term. The Penguins posted three six-game winless streaks in the last 21 games of the season (out of which they won only three) and earned the right to draft Lemieux amidst protests from Devils president Bob Butera.[4] Pittsburgh coach Lou Angotti later admitted that a conscious decision was made to end with as the team with the worst record, stating in an interview with the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette that a mid-season lunch prompted the plan, in light of the fact that there was a high chance of the franchise folding if Lemieux was not drafted.[5] In particular, Angotti gave the example of a game the Penguins were winning 3-1, at which point general manager Eddie Johnston asked the coach "what are you doing?" in the first intermission of the game that was eventually lost 6-3. The Penguins were still, despite losing ten of their last twelve games, only two games away from losing Lemieux to the Devils.[5] However, Angotti stated that he did not feel comfortable with the plan, even though it worked and saved the franchise. Other teams offered substantial trade packages for the draft choice, but the Penguins kept the pick.

In fact, the Penguins were again accused of throwing the last game of the season in 2009 to avoid facing the Flyers:

Senators coach and general manager Bryan Murray has joined the chorus suggesting the Pittsburgh Penguins intentionally tanked their last game of the season in order to face Ottawa in the first round of the playoffs.

The Penguins took star centre Sidney Crosby out of the lineup and played to an utterly listless 2-0 loss in Philadelphia Sunday. Had they won, they would have finished in first place in the Eastern Conference and faced the physical Flyers this week.

Instead, many believe they played to lose and thus hand-picked the slumping Senators, who are expected to be without captain Daniel Alfredsson, centre Mike Fisher and penalty-killing specialist Chris Kelly when the series gets underway Wednesday.

You're seeing what you want to see. It sounds like Agnotti was forced to go a long with a plan that he didn't agree with. And why would he? His job is to WIN games, not lose them. And you could probably never ask players to be a part of it; I don't think players would have the fortitude to intentionally play like crap. Tanking games is never done OVERTLY, it is done by actively trying to ice a team that will lose. It doesn't matter if they legitimately sucked; moves were made with the intention of having them suck even more. That is called tanking.

[mojo1917]

wow trading randy carlyle for a draft pick and a player to be named later.

i have no dog in this fight but that's pretty wild to think about trading a good player for future considerations... really brings that phrase into focus, I think it would be an interesting documentary.

are all of the players still alive ?

[B21]

I think Jonathan Bernier would be a great fit for the Flyers assuming they exercise their Buyoutgalov option.

Oh wait - wrong place.

[pensuck]

From 2002 - 06 the pens had 5 top 5 picks in a row. 2#1's, 2#2's and #5. They were terrible. The fans didnt go, didnt care and were the joke of pissburgh (which is hard to do btw). As in the mario case there's a lot of speculation that they tanked in a few of those years to rebuild. Hence the draft picks, league funding, and all of a sudden a winner with a new stadium and fan support.

Imagine Flyers fans if we had those high draft picks 5 years in a row? Thank God we try hard to win every year. Yes its been a long time since the cup but when we win it again we can say we earned it. Not the ***** way like pissburg has

[canoli]

From 2002 ... and all of a sudden a winner with a new stadium and fan support. ... when we win it again we can say we earned it. Not the ***** way like pissburg has

no need to water it down bro just tell us what you really think... lol!

[radoran]

I think there is a difference between, for example, the Edmonton Oilers who have simply legitimately sucked for years while selling out, and a franchise "in trouble" deciding over lunch it wouldn't be so bad to lose and lose frequently.

[doom88]

Well played @aziz

[brelic]

I think Jonathan Bernier would be a great fit for the Flyers assuming they exercise their Buyoutgalov option.

Oh wait - wrong place.

Damn you!

[jackhole]

You know what was wrong about the Crosby draft, was that it came following the lockout year where indeed, no teams played any games, yet draft selection order was basically carried over from the 04' season, allowing Pit to 'double dip.' When what should've happened is that each team should have had an equal chance at the lottery, as I do believe all 30 teams finished with 0 points in 05'.

The fact that this occurred when pitts was financially floundering has backroom orchistration written all over it. Not neccisarily Penguins, but from a league (i.e. Betman) point of view.

[Polaris922]

It was a cut-throat move, no doubt, but it was NOT ILLEGAL.

Neither is trading Carlysle for a first round pick, or playing your AHL goalie to see what he has when your best till then was an 8 win goalie... etc etc... nothing they did was illegal. Unethical perhaps, I'll concede that, but not illegal. And I would continue to argue that the Devils were doing the same thing, going on an even worse losing streak to end the season trying to get the pick themselves... so did it really matter who screwed whom? Nobody else was even close to this bad.

But, we're supposed to believe that there is no way they would have done it *again*.

Bear in mind that you are talking about two completely different ownership and management groups. Nobody from the shady Lemieux tanking era was still in power. And I DO think more of Lemieux than to think he would go along with this type of plan. Not to mention, there was no legitimate way they could fix getting the first pick during the Crosby, Malkin, Staal, etc etc drafts.

you guys did throw games for mario.

Again I refer you to entirely different management and ownership. They did not THROW games, which implies players did things on the ice to make sure they lost. The management during the pre-Lemieux era made some questionable moves and said they didn't care if they lost. You take the allegations to extremes.

how's that? do you really think that the board of governors is too pure and honest to play some games to keep one of its franchises afloat? especially a franchise owned by the guy responsible for pulling the league up a level or two or four on the recognition front?

No I don't trust the league for much of anything. BUT I do believe it would be impossible to get 30 team representatives in a room and agree to fix the results without one man saying "Hey wait a minute!" ... especially when the Devils and Flyers and everybody else would be out for blood. So what's next.. helium filled ping pong balls?

They didn't know what they were getting for Carlyle until AFTER the season. They basically gave him away for nothing.

In fact, the Penguins were again accused of throwing the last game of the season in 2009 to avoid facing the Flyers:

Actually they DID know they were getting a first round draft pick from the Jets and a player to be named later. People trade for first round picks all the time. Does that mean they're intentionally losing now?

The accusation about throwing the last game was because they rested Crosby for the playoffs. No team in the history of the NHL has ever rested a star player before going into the playoffs right?

OKay here it is... I surrender. LOL I've been trying to argue this point hoping for solid facts and maybe something I hadn't heard before about the tanking to get Lemieux. I DO agree they didn't do everything they could to win games. I do NOT agree that the players on the ice threw games. I think they would have been last place anyway, and I think the Devils were just as guilty of playing for last place as the Pens were, so it doesn't really offend me. Was it illegal? No... was it unethical? Yes.

Having said that, I'm glad none of you remembered earlier comments I had made agreeing they'd tanked the end of the season in earlier topics months ago. You made the debate more informative for me. I will staunchly support the team as never having tanked a season since then, and the draft picks acquired in recent years as being 100% legitimate, for obvious reasons. No evidence to the contrary, just hateful accusation from Flyers fans Thank all of you for the spirited debate, and for giving me a little more perspective on something we all agree happened to get Lemieux. But at the same time, please spare me the allegations that they did it to get Crosby or Malkin or any of the other players in recent years.

Now... Bernier to the Flyers huh? Nah....

[DaGreatGazoo]

I never accused the Pens of tanking, if you re-read my post, I specifically used the word "possibly". To be honest, I don't really care if they intentionally crapped the bed to draft Mario. That is ancient history, and rehashing it is pointless, in my opinion. They got Mario and the rest is history.

My point was simply, what the Flyers did was perfectly legitimate, but your statement made it sound like they did something completely illegal, and broke every CBA rule in doing so. They didn't. I respect the fact you hate the offer sheet. I'm pretty sure everyone, everywhere did..except Philly and it's fans.

As usual...all good, bud! But Crosby still sucks.

[aziz]

I've been trying to argue this point hoping for solid facts and maybe something I hadn't heard before about the tanking to get Lemieux. I DO agree they didn't do everything they could to win games. I do NOT agree that the players on the ice threw games. I think they would have been last place anyway, and I think the Devils were just as guilty of playing for last place as the Pens were, so it doesn't really offend me.

Well, the coach saying he had been instructed by management to finish the season in last place seems kind of..... like it happened. Players on the ice involved or not, I don't know, but the anecdote about the GM saying "what are you doing" to said coach after a 3-1 first period, only to have the final score be 3-6 sounds like the GM expected something on the ice mid-game to happen. And, lo. Six unanswered.

Anyway, whatever. Like you, it doesn't actually offend me. Outside of the fact that it made me suffer through junior high and high school as a flyer fan in Mario country. I figure that kind of thing happened not infrequently back then. Sports weren't as "professional" and shadyness happened. But it did happen.

[B21]

I think we all know the Pens did their best to land Mario. They didn't tell the skaters to miss open nets on purpose and they didn't tell the goalie to let a few slip in the 5-hole. They brought up a few guys who weren't all that good...and it worked. They "out-tanked" the Devils, landed Super Mario and the rest is history. This isn't news. Everyone knew this was going on in 1985, too.

As for the lean years in the early 2000's...enough already. The Pens...for a number of reasons - all legitimate....were just bad. I started a thread in the Pens forum; feel free to read.

Taking a few key points from that thread...

Explain how a team trying to tank goes 10-4-3 in it's last 17 games...

Explain how a team trying to tank signs 3 big-name free agents brining their salary up close to the cap...

Explain how a team with Mario in the line-up is trying to tank...

Just a tad closer look at the facts (and not just the records) explains a lot.

As for he Crosby draft, every NHL team had a representative in the room. That includes the Flyers. Any Flyers fan who thinks there was some conspiracy to give Crosby to the Penguins should march into Ed Snider's office right now and castrate him for allowing a division rival to land the best player in the world. Because that's what anyone who cries conspiracy is admitting actually happened.

[B21]

@pensuck

<< Imagine Flyers fans if we had those high draft picks 5 years in a row? >>

You would trade them away would be my guess.

[B21]

@aziz

<<< Anyway, whatever. Like you, it doesn't actually offend me. Outside of the fact that it made me suffer through junior high and high school as a flyer fan in Mario country. I figure that kind of thing happened not infrequently back then. Sports weren't as "professional" and shadyness happened. But it did happen. >>>

As a Pens fan living in Philadelphia during the entire Lindros era, I empathize.

[doom88]

@pensuck

<< Imagine Flyers fans if we had those high draft picks 5 years in a row? >>

You would trade them away would be my guess.

Close, but you're thinking second rounders. Homer hates them.

[PHI Flyers10]

@pensuck

<< Imagine Flyers fans if we had those high draft picks 5 years in a row? >>

You would trade them away would be my guess.

Whyyyyy I oughta....

[DaGreatGazoo]

@pensuck

<< Imagine Flyers fans if we had those high draft picks 5 years in a row? >>

You would trade them away would be my guess.

I just spit coffee on my keyboard reading this....freaking HILARIOUS.

[TedZep]

So we have established beyond the shadow of a doubt that two separate Penguin's owners/management groups systematically tanked games for multiple years in a row until once in a generation players were available for draft selection, and the league, for some unknown reason, assisted and abetted this fundamentally objectionable process.

There can be no defense of this despicable franchise. None.

[B21]

So we have established beyond the shadow of a doubt that two separate Penguin's owners/management groups systematically tanked games for multiple years in a row until once in a generation players were available for draft selection, and the league, for some unknown reason, assisted and abetted this fundamentally objectionable process.

There can be no defense of this despicable franchise. None.

One management group did for one year. Carry on.

[Vanflyer]

Even this year, if the team continues to suck, HELL YEAH I want Seth Jones. I wouldn't want them to deliberately finish last to get there though. It takes away from the teams that are truly horrible and it's ethically (and in some ways legally) wrong and I wouldn't feel right about it.

The system has changed. We call it the Pittsburgh rule. Even with the system changing, it is still fixed. The first time was Pittsburgh doing, the second time (Crosby / Malkin / Fleury) was the NHL doing. I applaud Edmonton. They never tanked. They genuinely sucked- but if you watched their games, they still gave 100% effort. Even the Islanders. Pitts on the other hand has openly admitted to tanking to get Lemieux and the NHL had a secret hand shake with that same Lemieux to get Crosby.

Funny to see how the dominoes tumbled (actually not so funny). The NHL continues to sustain teams like Pitts and Phoenix. I am sure Snider and other owners just roll hit themselves to no end in looking at this. Where is the incentive to succeed?

[brelic]

The system has changed. We call it the Pittsburgh rule. Even with the system changing, it is still fixed. The first time was Pittsburgh doing, the second time (Crosby / Malkin / Fleury) was the NHL doing. I applaud Edmonton. They never tanked. They genuinely sucked- but if you watched their games, they still gave 100% effort. Even the Islanders. Pitts on the other hand has openly admitted to tanking to get Lemieux and the NHL had a secret hand shake with that same Lemieux to get Crosby.

Funny to see how the dominoes tumbled (actually not so funny). The NHL continues to sustain teams like Pitts and Phoenix. I am sure Snider and other owners just roll hit themselves to no end in looking at this. Where is the incentive to succeed?

The only reason we know Pittsburgh tanked to get Lemieux is that they more or less admitted it, and some of the moves were real head scratchers.

However, how do we know Edmonton didn't tank on purpose? I don't mean to suggest for one second that the players would ever - not in 1984 and not now - tank on purpose, or tank because they were told to do so. I really don't believe you'd ever get a player, let alone an entire team, to actively try and lose on purpose.

That being said, I'm sure that when it gets right down to the wire, and teams are close to the basement, that 1st overall pick looks appealing, so maybe the GM makes some strange moves. The difference is that no one has really been caught lately.

I know that if we were close to finishing dead last for Seth Jones (or at least better odds at Seth Jones), I wouldn't be above giving Leaky a few extra starts, giving rookies a little more ice time, etc. Is it unethical? I don't know. Again, it comes down to intent. It seems in the 1984 Pens case, there was clear intent to finish last. But then again, if there is an incentive to finishing last, then why wouldn't you try to achieve it the same way you would try to win home ice advantage for the playoffs when you have a good team?

[B21]

The system has changed. We call it the Pittsburgh rule. Even with the system changing, it is still fixed. The first time was Pittsburgh doing, the second time (Crosby / Malkin / Fleury) was the NHL doing. I applaud Edmonton. They never tanked. They genuinely sucked- but if you watched their games, they still gave 100% effort. Even the Islanders. Pitts on the other hand has openly admitted to tanking to get Lemieux and the NHL had a secret hand shake with that same Lemieux to get Crosby.

Funny to see how the dominoes tumbled (actually not so funny). The NHL continues to sustain teams like Pitts and Phoenix. I am sure Snider and other owners just roll hit themselves to no end in looking at this. Where is the incentive to succeed?

Please explain how the Pens getting Fleury, Malkin and Crosby (might as well add Staal, too) was the NHL's doing.

I've provided a mountain of facts that prove there was no tanking and no conspiracy.

Please provide your facts that prove otherwise.

(The NHL did "fix" the problem, too. They implemented a lottery.)

Edited February 7, 2013 by B21