The Tanking Myth

[B21]

@Polaris922

This is for you. A little help for taking those bullets in the Jonathan Bernier thread.

Yes - the Pens "tanked" to get Mario. Old news. They didn't throw games on purpose. They called up guys who played to win but just weren't able. Guilty as charged. Sue us. While you're at it, sue the Devils, too. They pulled the same nonsense. Not proud of it but it doesn't take away from the Cups and success in the 1990's which weren't won for another 7 years after an incredible supporiting cast of future Hall of Famers were put around Mario...Paul Coffey, Ron Francis, Larry Murphy, Jaromir Jagr, Brian Trottier.

As for the early 2000's...

2001-02. Jagr was traded in the offseason for a bag of pucks. Lemiuex limited to 24 games. Lots of injuries. Our only other skilled player was Kovalev and he missed 15 games. Just the fact Lemieux played should be the obvious sign that they didn't try to tank this year. End result was the #5 pick which got us Ryan Whitney. Sweet.

2002-03. Pretty much a repeat of 01-02. Mario and Kovalev battled injuries all season. Not much other skill on the roster. End result was the #3 pick which was part of a package used to trade up to #1 to take Fleury.

2003-04. My favorite year to use when killing the tanking myth. Fleury was limited to 19 games because at 20 a clause in his contract (I don't recall exactly) kicked in that would result in a higher salary. Kovalev was gone. Mario only played 10 games. Just look at the roster. I'm sure Rico Fata was a nice guy and all but...yikes. Of course, this team supposedly tanking was 10-4-3 in it's last 17 games. End result was the #2 pick and Malkin.

2004-05. No season. As for the draft lottery, the teams that complain about not getting Crosby forget that every team at least had a shot at the #1 pick which would not have happended had the 04-05 season been played. As for the shenanigans, every team had a representative in the room when the order was drawn. So for the conspiracy theorists, that means that your own orginzations were OK with the league "giving" Crosby. Pretty far fecthed. In fact, impossible. The Pens were absolutely lucky...nothing more.

2005-06. Crosby's rookie year. The "tank" theorists forget a lot of things this season. First, Malkin was still in Russia. Second, in the offseason the Pens...trying to hard to tank to land a top 5 pick!...signed Palffy, Gonchar and LeClair spending almost to the cap in doing so. The moves didn't work out. It happens. 4-5-1 in their last 10 is hardly tanking. End result was the #2 pick and Jordan Staal.

Keep this handy, Polaris!

[Irishjim]

MYTH???? from how you wrote this its a stone cold mortal lock fact

[B21]

MYTH???? from how you wrote this its a stone cold mortal lock fact

For Mario? Duh. Reinventing the wheel there. Just skimming that other thread there were a few insinuations that it happened twice. Insinuating that it happened before and it could happen again...even though no one who was in management then is still with the organization. Just putting that theory to bed...again.

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922

This is for you. A little help for taking those bullets in the Jonathan Bernier thread.

Yes - the Pens "tanked" to get Mario. Old news. They didn't throw games on purpose. They called up guys who played to win but just weren't able. Guilty as charged. Sue us. While you're at it, sue the Devils, too. They pulled the same nonsense. Not proud of it but it doesn't take away from the Cups and success in the 1990's which weren't won for another 7 years after an incredible supporiting cast of future Hall of Famers were put around Mario...Paul Coffey, Ron Francis, Larry Murphy, Jaromir Jagr, Brian Trottier.

As for the early 2000's...

2001-02. Jagr was traded in the offseason for a bag of pucks. Lemiuex limited to 24 games. Lots of injuries. Our only other skilled player was Kovalev and he missed 15 games. Just the fact Lemieux played should be the obvious sign that they didn't try to tank this year. End result was the #5 pick which got us Ryan Whitney. Sweet.

2002-03. Pretty much a repeat of 01-02. Mario and Kovalev battled injuries all season. Not much other skill on the roster. End result was the #3 pick which was part of a package used to trade up to #1 to take Fleury.

2003-04. My favorite year to use when killing the tanking myth. Fleury was limited to 19 games because at 20 a clause in his contract (I don't recall exactly) kicked in that would result in a higher salary. Kovalev was gone. Mario only played 10 games. Just look at the roster. I'm sure Rico Fata was a nice guy and all but...yikes. Of course, this team supposedly tanking was 10-4-3 in it's last 17 games. End result was the #2 pick and Malkin.

2004-05. No season. As for the draft lottery, the teams that complain about not getting Crosby forget that every team at least had a shot at the #1 pick which would not have happended had the 04-05 season been played. As for the shenanigans, every team had a representative in the room when the order was drawn. So for the conspiracy theorists, that means that your own orginzations were OK with the league "giving" Crosby. Pretty far fecthed. In fact, impossible. The Pens were absolutely lucky...nothing more.

2005-06. Crosby's rookie year. The "tank" theorists forget a lot of things this season. First, Malkin was still in Russia. Second, in the offseason the Pens...trying to hard to tank to land a top 5 pick!...signed Palffy, Gonchar and LeClair spending almost to the cap in doing so. The moves didn't work out. It happens. 4-5-1 in their last 10 is hardly tanking. End result was the #2 pick and Jordan Staal.

Keep this handy, Polaris!

I'm actually posting there playing devil's advocate so to speak to argue the points. I don't disagree that the Pens management made it tough to win for a few games towards the end of the season. I DO disagree with the notion that they openly threw games. The moves that were made were pretty subtle though, and in my opinion they most likely would have been in last place regardless of those moves IF the Devils played to win as well. I think BOTH franchises were trying to outdo one another at the end. I just wanted to try to debate against it for the sport of it and to see if there were any more facts out there to point to it being as bad as some make it out to be, or as mild as it really seems to have been.

As for all the other accusations over Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Fluery... they're all pure billshat. I think anyone with half a brain who reviews the facts realizes it, I just think there are a few holdouts who want to paint the organization as satan regardless of the truth.

[Jmdodgesrt4]

Polaris. Are you a pens fan? Now I don't mean fair weather fan either. Before they tanked on purpose to acquire top picks and the league handed them Crosby, don't want Crosby he crys and dives to much FYI , were you aware there was a penguins team? You seem to be way to drunk and crosbys nutt sack right now to think your dmen are better then kimmo. Letang is the only player who can out perform kimmo. Nobody else can or will this year. And yes kimmo is on the decline but really if that's true how bad are your pens players? You know the ones who don't come close to kimmo point production or plus minus for the last how many years.

[Polaris922]

Polaris. Are you a pens fan? Now I don't mean fair weather fan either. Before they tanked on purpose to acquire top picks and the league handed them Crosby, don't want Crosby he crys and dives to much FYI , were you aware there was a penguins team? You seem to be way to drunk and crosbys nutt sack right now to think your dmen are better then kimmo. Letang is the only player who can out perform kimmo. Nobody else can or will this year. And yes kimmo is on the decline but really if that's true how bad are your pens players? You know the ones who don't come close to kimmo point production or plus minus for the last how many years.

The fact that you'd say they tanked to get Crosby shows your lack of knowledge in the game and its history. Continue overvaluing your washed up defenseman. That kind of thinking is why 38 years have passed since you last experienced a Cup.

[Jmdodgesrt4]

Polaris. Oh please. Your team tanked on purpose to secure top picks. Nobody knew there was a hockey team there for years before Crosby. Hence why your team was close to folding. You don't know your team very well.

[Polaris922]

Polaris. Oh please. Your team tanked on purpose to secure top picks. Nobody knew there was a hockey team there for years before Crosby. Hence why your team was close to folding. You don't know your team very well.

Again you know nothing. How about you spend your time researching the events that led up to Crosby's drafting before you make such stupid statements. Better yet... refer to @B21 's posting about it and why it's such an assinine thing to even suggest. You're trying to insult me but all you're doing is showing your own ignorance. You should educate yourself on the facts before attempting to go after me on them. Yes the Pens tanked to get Lemieux... just as the Devils did. But anyone reviewing the facts can see they did NOT do so to get Crosby or anybody else in history.

Let me help you by posting the facts as posted accurately buy @B21 ...

2003-04. My favorite year to use when killing the tanking myth. Fleury was limited to 19 games because at 20 a clause in his contract (I don't recall exactly) kicked in that would result in a higher salary. Kovalev was gone. Mario only played 10 games. Just look at the roster. I'm sure Rico Fata was a nice guy and all but...yikes. Of course, this team supposedly tanking was 10-4-3 in it's last 17 games. End result was the #2 pick and Malkin.

2004-05. No season. As for the draft lottery, the teams that complain about not getting Crosby forget that every team at least had a shot at the #1 pick which would not have happended had the 04-05 season been played. As for the shenanigans, every team had a representative in the room when the order was drawn. So for the conspiracy theorists, that means that your own orginzations were OK with the league "giving" Crosby. Pretty far fecthed. In fact, impossible. The Pens were absolutely lucky...nothing more.

2005-06. Crosby's rookie year. The "tank" theorists forget a lot of things this season. First, Malkin was still in Russia. Second, in the offseason the Pens...trying to hard to tank to land a top 5 pick!...signed Palffy, Gonchar and LeClair spending almost to the cap in doing so. The moves didn't work out. It happens. 4-5-1 in their last 10 is hardly tanking. End result was the #2 pick and Jordan Staal.

NOw.. where is your evidence of tanking? There is more to B21's post in the Penguins forum if you like, but I figured you just needed to absorb a little at a time. Or are you willing to admit it's just ignorance of the facts and accept it like a man?

[doom88]

Again you know nothing. How about you spend your time researching the events that led up to Crosby's drafting before you make such stupid statements. Better yet... refer to @B21 's posting about it and why it's such an assinine thing to even suggest. You're trying to insult me but all you're doing is showing your own ignorance. You should educate yourself on the facts before attempting to go after me on them. Yes the Pens tanked to get Lemieux... just as the Devils did. But anyone reviewing the facts can see they did NOT do so to get Crosby or anybody else in history.

Let me help you by posting the facts as posted accurately buy @B21 ...

2003-04. My favorite year to use when killing the tanking myth. Fleury was limited to 19 games because at 20 a clause in his contract (I don't recall exactly) kicked in that would result in a higher salary. Kovalev was gone. Mario only played 10 games. Just look at the roster. I'm sure Rico Fata was a nice guy and all but...yikes. Of course, this team supposedly tanking was 10-4-3 in it's last 17 games. End result was the #2 pick and Malkin.

2004-05. No season. As for the draft lottery, the teams that complain about not getting Crosby forget that every team at least had a shot at the #1 pick which would not have happended had the 04-05 season been played. As for the shenanigans, every team had a representative in the room when the order was drawn. So for the conspiracy theorists, that means that your own orginzations were OK with the league "giving" Crosby. Pretty far fecthed. In fact, impossible. The Pens were absolutely lucky...nothing more.

2005-06. Crosby's rookie year. The "tank" theorists forget a lot of things this season. First, Malkin was still in Russia. Second, in the offseason the Pens...trying to hard to tank to land a top 5 pick!...signed Palffy, Gonchar and LeClair spending almost to the cap in doing so. The moves didn't work out. It happens. 4-5-1 in their last 10 is hardly tanking. End result was the #2 pick and Jordan Staal.

NOw.. where is your evidence of tanking? There is more to B21's post in the Penguins forum if you like, but I figured you just needed to absorb a little at a time. Or are you willing to admit it's just ignorance of the facts and accept it like a man?

Not being a jerk, actual questions if you're digging up facts...

What happened the season that resulted in drafting Fleury or Whitney? Also, what about Palffy retiring early on in 05-06 (from memory anyway)? To play devil's advocate on 05-06, they might not have gone into the season thinking SUCK, but they did appear to finish it that way.

[Jmdodgesrt4]

Yep. Your right. No tanking at all. Sarcasm FYI. The flyers are contenders every year unlike the pens. We don't dive to gather top picks and consider that acceptable. Doing a pens or Chicago or oilers nose dive for years to skate a good club is something we don't do. Stop trying to cover up your teams willingness to tank. It's not just the pens. But above teams along with others. Columbus? They are just clueless. The flyers are a top rate organization. Above and beyond the pens and many other clubs. Remember we haven't almost folded due to lack of fans and interest.

[Polaris922]

Not being a jerk, actual questions if you're digging up facts...

What happened the season that resulted in drafting Fleury or Whitney? Also, what about Palffy retiring early on in 05-06 (from memory anyway)? To play devil's advocate on 05-06, they might not have gone into the season thinking SUCK, but they did appear to finish it that way.

Not being a jerk when the goal is to find out something rather than make unsupported allegations. From @B21 's post...

2001-02. Jagr was traded in the offseason for a bag of pucks. Lemiuex limited to 24 games. Lots of injuries. Our only other skilled player was Kovalev and he missed 15 games. Just the fact Lemieux played should be the obvious sign that they didn't try to tank this year. End result was the #5 pick which got us Ryan Whitney. Sweet.

2002-03. Pretty much a repeat of 01-02. Mario and Kovalev battled injuries all season. Not much other skill on the roster. End result was the #3 pick which was part of a package used to trade up to #1 to take Fleury.

I would add that Jagr was kind of forced out by the Pens because we couldn't afford him, sadly. There was some bad blood developing and the organization realized we couldn't pay what he was going to get on the market. So sadly we got nobody of any noticeable talent for him. (It's why I stand so strongly against trade ideas like the Laughton for Iginla type stuff really). Sadly we've never had money like Snider gets with his support from Comcast. Until Buerkle anyway, and that has made one hell of a difference with a guy like him behind the Club and a guy like Lemieux running it.

[Polaris922]

Yep. Your right. No tanking at all. Sarcasm FYI. The flyers are contenders every year unlike the pens. We don't dive to gather top picks and consider that acceptable. Doing a pens or Chicago or oilers nose dive for years to skate a good club is something we don't do. Stop trying to cover up your teams willingness to tank. It's not just the pens. But above teams along with others. Columbus? They are just clueless. The flyers are a top rate organization. Above and beyond the pens and many other clubs. Remember we haven't almost folded due to lack of fans and interest.

Again you speak with no facts to back up your words. Obviously if you had any evidence to make such a statement we'd see it here. I could respect a differing opinion if you had something to base it on other than you're irritable bowel syndrome "GUT feeling". Zero credibility though. We find this a lot in people who want something to be true but it's not. It's okay, I'll write it off to your fanaticism for the Flyers. Just had hoped you were like a lot of the others here in that you were a hockey fan as well. You think that teams who don't have a 6 million fan base and corporate money like Snider has given to him aren't respectable.. that's fine... but what has all that fan base and big corporate money gotten you? Early tee times every year for 38 years. My team may have had streaks of horrible hockey... they may have tanked a few games to out-tank the Debbies and win the Lemieux pick... they may have settled for less at times because the money just wasn't there... but I'm damn proud of our THREE Stanley Cups, and the team that we put on the ice every game, win or lose. As for you and your opinions, a lot of people have opinions based on ignorance... you've just shown yourself to be on that list.

EDIT: Sorry for those who've read this all before and I know it doesn't belong here... but I don't have the ability to move the posts from other users making such stupid remarks to the proper place. If he'd (jmdodgesrt4) read the topics about it we wouldn't even be discussing it. Why do I feel like I'm talking to a cosmetically enhanced Neon?? LOL

Edited February 9, 2013 by Polaris922

[Jmdodgesrt4]

Wow. Now you know nothing of your pens and the srt-4. Shows your ignorance or just lack of intelligence. There is a reason why your forum is dead. Fair weather fans are everywhere. What's going to happen when Crosby gets hit in the head again and his career is over. Prolly somehow with the pens getting into the playoffs Mario will cry of moving the team and bam Seth jones is a pen .

[Polaris922]

Wow. Now you know nothing of your pens and the srt-4. Shows your ignorance or just lack of intelligence. There is a reason why your forum is dead. Fair weather fans are everywhere. What's going to happen when Crosby gets hit in the head again and his career is over. Prolly somehow with the pens getting into the playoffs Mario will cry of moving the team and bam Seth jones is a pen .

Again there's a lot of blah blah blah from you with no facts to back it up. Just another trash talker with no knowledge. You go ahead and ramble some more... I'm done with you till you actually use facts to support your nonsense. As that is not possible I bid you adieu.

[Jmdodgesrt4]

Pens folding then all of a sudden Crosby. Am I missing something. No proof but c'mon man.

[Polaris922]

@B21

People also forget there were FOUR teams with three balls a piece in that lottery. The Blue Jackets, Sabres and Rangers each got three as well. The league actually made it tougher for the Pens (who had finished last the last season played before) to win the draft selection. By normal selection process they should have had a 25% chance to draft Crosby, and instead ended up with a 6.3% chance as done by the draft lottery changes. So in effect, you could argue there was a conspiracy to PREVENT the Pens from getting Crosby. The NHL changed the system over a lockout? Did the Pens finish the last season in last place or not? Why change the system to reduce their chances of winning the draft pick for Crosby?? And dropping from 25% to 6.3% is no small reduction.

Edited February 10, 2013 by Polaris922

[B21]

@B21

People also forget there were FOUR teams with three balls a piece in that lottery. The Blue Jackets, Sabres and Rangers each got three as well. The league actually made it tougher for the Pens (who had finished last the last season played before) to win the draft selection. By normal selection process they should have had a 25% chance to draft Crosby, and instead ended up with a 6.3% chance as done by the draft lottery changes. So in effect, you could argue there was a conspiracy to PREVENT the Pens from getting Crosby. The NHL changed the system over a lockout? Did the Pens finish the last season in last place or not? Why change the system to reduce their chances of winning the draft pick for Crosby?? And dropping from 25% to 6.3% is no small reduction.

Preaching to the choir. Using the rationale of the few clueless posters here, the Flyers tanked to get a top pick in 2007. I mean if all one needs as proof of tanking is a losing record, right? Funny how the tankaholics don't get too upset at the Islanders or Oilers. For the good ones...I feel bad. A little. 38 years is a long time. Still, no need for us to apologize for the 3 legitimate, well-earned Cups we have won since.

[hf101]

EDIT: Sorry for those who've read this all before and I know it doesn't belong here... but I don't have the ability to move the posts from other users making such stupid remarks to the proper place. If he'd (jmdodgesrt4) read the topics about it we wouldn't even be discussing it. Why do I feel like I'm talking to a cosmetically enhanced Neon?? LOL

Hey, maybe someday. but for now when you see posts that need to be moved, merged or deleted just ask, send a pm or push the report button.

I moved 11 posts from the timo thread to here.

Enjoy

[Polaris922]

Hey, maybe someday. but for now when you see posts that need to be moved, merged or deleted just ask, send a pm or push the report button.

I moved 11 posts from the timo thread to here.

Enjoy

Haha! Not asking to moderate bud just felt bad that dispute had to derail another thread. Appreciate the move though thanks!

[hf101]

@Polaris922

Therein lies the beauty of this forum's software. We can "fix" all things.....

.....well try to anyways.

[Polaris922]

Preaching to the choir. Using the rationale of the few clueless posters here, the Flyers tanked to get a top pick in 2007. I mean if all one needs as proof of tanking is a losing record, right? Funny how the tankaholics don't get too upset at the Islanders or Oilers. For the good ones...I feel bad. A little. 38 years is a long time. Still, no need for us to apologize for the 3 legitimate, well-earned Cups we have won since.

I know you're next to me in the choir, just thought the added percentage break down would be a good addition to the thread.