Broad Street Bullies, Carbomb, and Bias

[B21]

What a load of crap! I dont care if it's Rinaldo, Cooke or any other player. A refs job is too call what he sees, NOT what he thinks or read about someone! There is no benefit of the doubt, if you didnt see it, dont call it! This goes back on you, how many legit pens fans admit to Crosby being a diver? NONE that I talk too, and I use to live in Pittsburgh so dont give me that. Of course Rinaldo has had issues, but how many in the pros can you name? Not many to have this "Reputation" thats media created. Just call whats on the ice and forget the B.S. of what's heard round the league.

How many? I gave you five. ALL in the NHL. See what I didn't mention? His two fines and his suspension. ALL in the NHL. You want numbers....we are up to 8 now.

As for the referees, again we are talking about BORDERLINE calls. Bang-bang plays. It's part of the human element. I accept it. I could care less if Matt Cooke doesn't get the benefit of doubt on a call. He doesn't DESERVE it. He made his bed. EXACTLY like Rinaldo. The media has NOTHING to do with his reputation. That's a weak attempt to find an excuse. But since you brought it up...show me where the media had a part in Rinaldo's reputation.

How many legitimate Pens fans admit to Crosby being a diver? Lots, actually. It's the casual hockey fan who does not follow the game as closed as we do that probably would not. Kinda like the casual Flyers fan (or the delusional one) who thinks Rinaldo has been treated unfairly by the NHL.

[B21]

And when Crosby quits whining to the refs like a little bitch EVERY SINGLE TIME, we'll take Pens fans seriously too.

Hyperbole is easy, see?

So is posting something that just isn't true anymore. In fact, that makes my point even further. I see lots of Flyers yapping at the officials when the Flyers and Pens play, too.

[B21]

If you're going to TRY and sit there and tell me that Ref's don't talk about who they need to "WATCH" in a game, i.e. the rinaldo's or Matt Cooke's, than you don't know hockey.

Seriously....don't you think they KNOW? Good lord.

Koharski: "Hey fellas - we need to keep an eye on Cooke. He's a dirty bastard."

Fraser: " Wow. I had no idea. Thanks, Don."

[brelic]

So is posting something that just isn't true anymore. In fact, that makes my point even further. I see lots of Flyers yapping at the officials when the Flyers and Pens play, too.

The point is Flyers fans will always see Crosby as a spineless douche. And many of them will tell you they'd rather dip their own testicles in acid before having Crosby on the Flyers. That he doesn't know what Flyers hockey is, and really is the poster boy for NHL fanboys and what's wrong with the league.

How can you possibly argue rationally on those points? You can't because they're not rational arguments. It is a built-in hatred for a rival from a passionate fanbase. Flyers fans will always hate Crosby and Malkinstein. Just like they hated Jagr, and for many, the idea of him joining the Flyers last year was 'dirty'.

Fans wear their team's glasses and drink the kool-aid (for the most part). If they didn't, then I would have no reason to watch or be emotionally invested in my team and the sport. It would just be a bunch of dudes skating around with wooden sticks in their hands chasing frozen rubber. It would, in all honesty, seem extremely senseless and meaningless.

[B21]

The point is Flyers fans will always see Crosby as a spineless douche. And many of them will tell you they'd rather dip their own testicles in acid before having Crosby on the Flyers. That he doesn't know what Flyers hockey is, and really is the poster boy for NHL fanboys and what's wrong with the league.

How can you possibly argue rationally on those points? You can't because they're not rational arguments. It is a built-in hatred for a rival from a passionate fanbase. Flyers fans will always hate Crosby and Malkinstein. Just like they hated Jagr, and for many, the idea of him joining the Flyers last year was 'dirty'.

Fans wear their team's glasses and drink the kool-aid (for the most part). If they didn't, then I would have no reason to watch or be emotionally invested in my team and the sport. It would just be a bunch of dudes skating around with wooden sticks in their hands chasing frozen rubber. It would, in all honesty, seem extremely senseless and meaningless.

That's all fine and dandy and I'm not arguing those points other than to say it's hypocritical to hate Crosby because of his reputation (understanding the rival aspect) and yet whine and bizzach that Zac Rinaldo (of all fringgin' people) has been unfairly targeted because of what any knowledgeable NHL fan would say is a well deserved reputation as a dirty player.

I mean...you can think that if you want. But every now and then you'll get called out on it.

Put it this way...as a fan of the Pens I know that a star player like Crosby will get the benefit of doubt on a close play. The next time I complain about a star player on another team getting the same benefit of doubt will be the first.

[Podein25]

...it's hypocritical to hate Crosby because of his reputation (understanding the rival aspect) and yet whine and bizzach that Zac Rinaldo (of all fringgin' people) has been unfairly targeted because of what any knowledgeable NHL fan would say is a well deserved reputation as a dirty player.

But isn't it meaningful that Crosby and Rinaldo are completely different players? Crosby is the face of the game, it's biggest star. People have different expectations. And rightly so.

I'm not so sure Rinaldo is a dirty player. Crazy as a loon for sure, but that's also a different thing.

[brelic]

That's all fine and dandy and I'm not arguing those points other than to say it's hypocritical to hate Crosby because of his reputation (understanding the rival aspect) and yet whine and bizzach that Zac Rinaldo (of all fringgin' people) has been unfairly targeted because of what any knowledgeable NHL fan would say is a well deserved reputation as a dirty player.

It's not hypocritical at all... it's par for the course. Crosby is a douche bag and Hartnell is awesome. I'm sure Pens fans see it in reverse!

I mean...you can think that if you want. But every now and then you'll get called out on it.

Called out on what? Being a fan of your team and hating the team's (arguably) biggest rival? Like I said, without that hatred, why am I dispassionately watching players who live in two cities I do not skate around a frozen oval? Maybe I'm not like the average sports fan (really only a hockey fan, period), but I've never understood watching the Super Bowl if neither team is your favourite team. What's the point? I didn't watch the NJ-LA final because I don't care for either team and really didn't care about the outcome. I had better things to do.

Put it this way...as a fan of the Pens I know that a star player like Crosby will get the benefit of doubt on a close play. The next time I complain about a star player on another team getting the same benefit of doubt will be the first.

I'm happy for you that you've achieved complete emotional detachment and watch hockey on a purely intellectual level.

For me, I know Giroux will get the benefit of the doubt like Crosby, but when Crosby or Malkin or Ovechkin get away with bloody murder (that's right! BLOODY MURDER!), I will, in the heat of the moment wish them a slow agonizing death, even if I secretly know inside that Giroux would get the same treatment.

[doom88]

Giroux was actually suspended a game in the playoffs, while Malkin had an automatic suspension rescinded. Not sure G is getting that same level of benefit at all. Crosby essentially admitted in trying (and succeeding) to injure Giroux's wrists in the playoffs and the NHL turned a blind eye. Not sure G would get that benefit at all. More likely a Lavy, Snider fine, G suspension, loss of draft picks and another memo about message sending.

Oh well.

[B21]

But isn't it meaningful that Crosby and Rinaldo are completely different players? Crosby is the face of the game, it's biggest star. People have different expectations. And rightly so.

I'm not so sure Rinaldo is a dirty player. Crazy as a loon for sure, but that's also a different thing.

It might but an apples vs. oranges comparison...but still fruit. I don't even think Crosby is the "face" of the game anymore. You can't be the face of the game when you've only played 63 games in the last two seasons and you team has been knocked out in the first round each of those years. I don't think the NHL has a "face" right now.

As for Rinaldo being dirty, i/m/h/o there is enough of a resume there to lable him as such. Sucker punches Mihalek. Kicks Ryan Carter. Elbows Bortuzzo in the head. Takes out Zubrus' knee. Blindside hit to Galiardi's head. And that's just last year and doesn't include his suspension and two fines.

I mean jeez - what does it take for a guy to get the "dirty" label? A lot less than that if he wears black and gold and plays on the other side of the state.

[B21]

Giroux was actually suspended a game in the playoffs, while Malkin had an automatic suspension rescinded. Not sure G is getting that same level of benefit at all. Crosby essentially admitted in trying (and succeeding) to injure Giroux's wrists in the playoffs and the NHL turned a blind eye. Not sure G would get that benefit at all. More likely a Lavy, Snider fine, G suspension, loss of draft picks and another memo about message sending.

Oh well.

Crosby admitted that? Gee - that's not what I read. Scott Walker's automatic suspension was lifted, too. Why do Flyers fans always seem to forget that one? Oh - Craig Adam's automatic suspension wasn't. Know what all that means? Nothing. Show me how that favors one and not the other. 1 star with a suspension waived. 1 scrub with a suspension waived. 1 scrub with a suspension enforced.

Neal (star player) was suspended, too. What is your point? As for the wrists...it's called a faceoff. Wrists get hit. As a Cener, I think Claude would know that.

[B21]

@brelic

<<< It's not hypocritical at all... it's par for the course. >>>

Actually, it's both.

<<< Crosby is a douche bag and Hartnell is awesome. I'm sure Pens fans see it in reverse! >>>

Nah - they are both douchbags...at times. That's how this Pens fan sees it.

<<< Called out on what? Being a fan of your team and hating the team's (arguably) biggest rival? >>>

I guess if you want to look at it that way - you can. Called out on killing a guy based on his reputation while whining that you own guy is treated unfairly because of his.

<<< Like I said, without that hatred, why am I dispassionately watching players who live in two cities I do not skate around a frozen oval? Maybe I'm not like the average sports fan (really only a hockey fan, period), but I've never understood watching the Super Bowl if neither team is your favourite team. What's the point? I didn't watch the NJ-LA final because I don't care for either team and really didn't care about the outcome. I had better things to do. >>>

Duh....watch the SB for the commercials and the chance (this year anyway) to see Beyonce's titty.

<<< I'm happy for you that you've achieved complete emotional detachment and watch hockey on a purely intellectual level. >>>

LOL. Not at all. But I don't get worked up what calls don't go my team's way. All that stuff evens out in the end. My teams (not just the Pens) have been on both sides of that coin (literally - ask Jerome Bettis whether he said heads or tails). I just can't stand fans who blame their teams' lack of success on poor officiating, league bias or grand conspiracies. All that BS evens out in the end. I know 1975 is a long time ago but sheesh.

<<< For me, I know Giroux will get the benefit of the doubt like Crosby, but when Crosby or Malkin or Ovechkin get away with bloody murder (that's right! BLOODY MURDER!), I will, in the heat of the moment wish them a slow agonizing death, even if I secretly know inside that Giroux would get the same treatment. >>>

Crosby killed Kennedy and Hoffa, too. OV was Deepthroat. It was Malkin who poisoned Alexander Litvinenko.

[pensuck]

Listen guys. You're arguing with pens fans on a flyers message board. Enough said.

[Polaris922]

Whether you're a fan of one team or another, you have to open your eyes wide enough to see the reality. There are inconsistent calls in the games. There are douchebags with little talent (Rinaldo) playing against or with stars with great talent (Crosby/Giroux). The stars get the benefit of the doubt on close calls BECAUSE they're about skill more than thuggery. The Rinaldo's and Cooke's have earned NOT getting that same benefit. For anyone, Flyers or Pens fan, to argue differently is just ignorance of the game. Stop the hypocrisy! Lol. I'm organizing a match to end homerosm!

[brelic]

@brelic

<<< It's not hypocritical at all... it's par for the course. >>>

Actually, it's both.

I guess if you want to look at it that way - you can. Called out on killing a guy based on his reputation while whining that you own guy is treated unfairly because of his.

Heh, you couldn't *pay* me to watch football, let alone the SB.

I hope you know that I'm posting tongue in cheek. When I watch the Flyers with Habs fans (it's usually one of me against 5 of them), man, it is a heated evening of rivalry, but super fun. Especially in the playoffs a few years ago when Leaky Leighton kept shutting them out. The Habs players were little punks, and for them, the Flyers players were basically third from the left on the evolution chart.

But when the game is over, we go have beers, play guitar, whatever. No one really cares anymore. I guess what I'm saying is that during the game, fans vacillate between blaming the refs, their coach, their players, the other 'dirty' players, you name it. It's part of the excitement of watching hockey. When it's over, I don't harp on it.

LOL. Not at all. But I don't get worked up what calls don't go my team's way. All that stuff evens out in the end. My teams (not just the Pens) have been on both sides of that coin (literally - ask Jerome Bettis whether he said heads or tails). I just can't stand fans who blame their teams' lack of success on poor officiating, league bias or grand conspiracies. All that BS evens out in the end. I know 1975 is a long time ago but sheesh.

I didn't grow up during the bullies period, so I don't really associate with it. In fact, it is the rest of the hockey world that can't let it go, not Flyers fans. The media (both national and local affiliates) invariably invoke the Broad Street Bullies moniker when referring to the Flyers and their 'personality'. I've never in my life called the Flyers that because I have absolutely no association with it.

But I agree with you that blaming officials, the league, and far-flung conspiracies for the long-term failure of the team doesn't make much sense. However, in the heat of the moment, during a game, it's completely natural to question calls that go against your team, the same calls that when the game is over, you can easily look at them more objectively. It doesn't mean you truly believe the fix is in.

[doom88]

Crosby admitted that? Gee - that's not what I read. Scott Walker's automatic suspension was lifted, too. Why do Flyers fans always seem to forget that one? Oh - Craig Adam's automatic suspension wasn't. Know what all that means? Nothing. Show me how that favors one and not the other. 1 star with a suspension waived. 1 scrub with a suspension waived. 1 scrub with a suspension enforced.

Neal (star player) was suspended, too. What is your point? As for the wrists...it's called a faceoff. Wrists get hit. As a Cener, I think Claude would know that.

I said Crosby essentially admitted, he's not stupid enough to say it flat out. We were on the topic of stars, which is why Malkin's non-suspension was cited. Neal is a rising star, not elite like Crosby and Malkin, yet.

Don't twist the subject and try to make a fool of me. I can read, and I feel like I've extended you reasonable polite courtesy despite our disagreements. Thank you.

[B21]

I said Crosby essentially admitted, he's not stupid enough to say it flat out. We were on the topic of stars, which is why Malkin's non-suspension was cited. Neal is a rising star, not elite like Crosby and Malkin, yet.

Don't twist the subject and try to make a fool of me. I can read, and I feel like I've extended you reasonable polite courtesy despite our disagreements. Thank you.

Slow down. No one is trying to twist your words (and I've been equally polite). You said "Crosby essentially admitted in trying (and succeeding) to injure Giroux's wrists...".

Whether you use "essentially" or not that absolutely implies that your opinion is that Crosby admitted to trying to break Giroux's wrists. Now for the actual quote...

Rorabaugh: During the offseason, Giroux claimed you broke his wrists while taking faceoffs. Do you recall any plays where that might have happened?

Crosby: ”No. I really like to win the faceoff. I don’t try to go after his wrists but if I caught it, I’m not sorry for it.....“I guess I’m not apologetic. I was trying to win a faceoff and if I caught his wrist, then I caught his wrist. He seemed to play okay so I couldn’t have hurt him that bad.”

Sounds to me like Crosby is saying 1) He certainly didn't try. 2) He's not even sure he caught the wrists. 3) IF he did, it happens. It's hockey.

Neal was a 40 goal scorer last season...one of only 4 players to eclipse that number. I'd say that puts him in the "star" category at least enough so that he can be included when the argument is about star players getting (or not getting) suspended.

[B21]

@brelic

<<< I hope you know that I'm posting tongue in cheek. When I watch the Flyers with Habs fans (it's usually one of me against 5 of them), man, it is a heated evening of rivalry, but super fun. Especially in the playoffs a few years ago when Leaky Leighton kept shutting them out. The Habs players were little punks, and for them, the Flyers players were basically third from the left on the evolution chart. >>

I did get that impression (that you were being tongue and cheek). That's why I threw in the bit about the SB. And I agree 100% on the 'fun' aspect of things. Wouldn't be here otherwise.

<<< But when the game is over, we go have beers, play guitar, whatever. No one really cares anymore. I guess what I'm saying is that during the game, fans vacillate between blaming the refs, their coach, their players, the other 'dirty' players, you name it. It's part of the excitement of watching hockey. When it's over, I don't harp on it. >>>

You don't harp. I don't. But you have to admit...there is a large element that does.

<<< I didn't grow up during the bullies period, so I don't really associate with it. In fact, it is the rest of the hockey world that can't let it go, not Flyers fans. The media (both national and local affiliates) invariably invoke the Broad Street Bullies moniker when referring to the Flyers and their 'personality'. I've never in my life called the Flyers that because I have absolutely no association with it. >>>

Not so sure I agree with that completely. Remember Holmgren's comments when he traded for Carcillo? "Flyers fans will love him." There is a pretty sizable hard core element to the Flyers fan base that still relishes in the aura of the BSB...until they preceive that aura (allegedly) causing the officials or the league to show bias towards them. Just m/h/o.

[Podein25]

There is a pretty sizable hard core element to the Flyers fan base that still relishes in the aura of the BSB.

Yes, I for one long for the days when the Flyers once again have 6 players who score 20 or more goals a season.

[B21]

Yes, I for one long for the days when the Flyers once again have 6 players who score 20 or more goals a season.

Long for? 2010-2011 isn't recent enough? (Carter, Briere, Giroux, Hartnell, Richards and JVR. It's 7 if you count Versteeg.)

[flyercanuck]

Listen guys. You're arguing with pens fans on a flyers message board. Enough said.

The fact that the Pens fans can come on here and argue is part of the reason they're here.

I doubt there's a Pens board anywhere (just an example, I could say almost any team) that a Flyer fan could go to and argue what a douche Cooke is or how dirty Malkin is or how much Crosby and Letang whine and dive, and not get booted off it. These two guys may be Pen fans, but they're also knowledgeable hockey fans who bring a different perspective to the board. I don't agree with everything they say, but I respect them both. It's nice to hear a different view than if the guys in O & B he's great. That's why this board is great, we've got homers AND jerks ( )from other teams, All living as one happy family!

[Podein25]

@B21

Don't be thick. You know what my point is. The Bullies, in addition to being tough SOBs, could put the puck in the net. Bobby Clarke was one of the best hockey players to ever come out of Canada. He was so good his drunk right winger still scored 60 goals despite being wasted most of the time.

[brelic]

You don't harp. I don't. But you have to admit...there is a large element that does

Sure, but that's probably the case with the fan base of all teams.

Not so sure I agree with that completely. Remember Holmgren's comments when he traded for Carcillo? "Flyers fans will love him." There is a pretty sizable hard core element to the Flyers fan base that still relishes in the aura of the BSB...until they preceive that aura (allegedly) causing the officials or the league to show bias towards them. Just m/h/o.

Yeah, because Homer is a BSB. And there's nothing wrong with Flyers fans who relate to the BSB years... I'm just not one of them because I didn't grow up in that era. I grew up, to some extent, with Tocchet and Hextall, but was really too young until the Lindros years.

I'm sure it's like the Gretzky-era Oilers fans who remember that dynasty and incredible seasons and Cups, and then the modern fans who have absolutely no association with Gretzky and the Oilers.

But, fair point. My only counter is that I more regularly hear it from opposing media for some reason.

[B21]

@B21

Don't be thick. You know what my point is. The Bullies, in addition to being tough SOBs, could put the puck in the net. Bobby Clarke was one of the best hockey players to ever come out of Canada. He was so good his drunk right winger still scored 60 goals despite being wasted most of the time.

Relax! Just having some fun...hence the "wink". I know what you meant. Even your goons (Schultz) put up 20 goals. Those were great teams even without all the thuggery.

[B21]

The fact that the Pens fans can come on here and argue is part of the reason they're here.

I doubt there's a Pens board anywhere (just an example, I could say almost any team) that a Flyer fan could go to and argue what a douche Cooke is or how dirty Malkin is or how much Crosby and Letang whine and dive, and not get booted off it. These two guys may be Pen fans, but they're also knowledgeable hockey fans who bring a different perspective to the board. I don't agree with everything they say, but I respect them both. It's nice to hear a different view than if the guys in O & B he's great. That's why this board is great, we've got homers AND jerks ( )from other teams, All living as one happy family!

Kum ba ya....

[canoli]

@B21

you've used that quote on (so) many occasions maybe it's time to put it to bed. Don't you realize how mundane that comment really is? If Ray Shero had hired Carcillo and said the same thing it would be a non-issue. "Penguins' fans are gonna love him." Big deal.

What did you think Homer would say? "Carcillo is the least-talented, most-penalized player in the NHL but we like him because, even though our team has a discipline problem right now, we can't think of anybody better to bring focus and class to our organization."

[edit: It was an imbecile signing; let's just be glad he's not in our conference anymore. ]

Edited February 4, 2013 by canoli