Broad Street Bullies, Carbomb, and Bias

[B21]

@brelic

<<< Yeah, because Homer is a BSB. And there's nothing wrong with Flyers fans who relate to the BSB years... I'm just not one of them because I didn't grow up in that era. I grew up, toYeah, because Homer is a BSB. And there's nothing wrong with Flyers fans who relate to the BSB years... I'm just not one of them because I didn't grow up in that era. I grew up, to some extent, with Tocchet and Hextall, but was really too young until the Lindros years. >>>

Oh - absolutely nothing wrong with it at all nor being nostalgic about it either.

<<< I'm sure it's like the Gretzky-era Oilers fans who remember that dynasty and incredible seasons and Cups, and then the modern fans who have absolutely no association with Gretzky and the Oilers. >>>

True but Oilers fans aren't complaining that the league is biased towards them because of the Gretzyk era, either.

<<< But, fair point. My only counter is that I more regularly hear it from opposing media for some reason.

some extent, with Tocchet and Hextall, but was really too young until the Lindros years. >>>

No doubt the media will take things and run with them and often over..."hype?"...a story line. But from time to time the Flyers AND their fans have given them reason to. Having a BSB in charge of personnal (Clarke to Holmgren) doesn't help. Not saying that its a bad thing but it's going to keep that BSB aura around, too.

[Podein25]

Relax! Just having some fun...hence the "wink". I know what you meant.

My apologies, I haven't had a drink yet. I guess my defensiveness about the whole Bullies thing is illustrative. A lot of people, even knowledgeable hockey people (like Ken Dryden, to name but one) talk about those teams as if they had zero skill. Even Clarke is remembered by many Canadians mainly as a dirty player; they'd be shocked to learn that the WHL trophy for highest scorer is named after him.

Anyway, back to the thread. Simmonds' nose sure was a mess when Erskine elbowed him. I can only imagine how the rest of his head felt.

[B21]

@B21

you've used that quote on (so) many occasions maybe it's time to put it to bed. Don't you realize how mundane that comment really is? If Ray Shero had hired Carcillo and said the same thing it would be a non-issue. "Penguins' fans are gonna love him." Big deal.

What did you think Homer would say? "Carcillo is the least-talented, most-penalized player in the NHL but we like him because, even though our team has a discipline problem right now, we can't think of anybody better to bring focus and class to our organization."

[edit: It was an imbecile signing; let's just be glad he's not in our conference anymore. ]

Disagree. It's not mundane at all when it's part of the "bias" argument. You (generalizing) trade a skill player (and a 2nd round pick!) for the guy who led the league in PIM the year before and then wonder why the BSB "bias" won't go away after Holmgren's comments??? Instead of "Flyers fans will love him..." howabout "He brings some much needed grit that's been missing...". Something. Anything. Pick a cliche.

Shero traded for Matt Cooke (who as I have been told has been as big a POS as Carcillo since he was in Juniors)...yet I don't recall Shero telling everyone that Pens fans are going to love him.

For Pete's sake, argue the BSB bias all you want but at least admit that your fans AND your organization bring a lot of that on themselves, too.

[B21]

@Podein25

<<< Don't be thick. >>>

Been talking to Mrs. Burgher again?

[canoli]

Disagree. It's not mundane at all when it's part of the "bias" argument. You (generalizing) trade a skill player (and a 2nd round pick!) for the guy who led the league in PIM the year before and then wonder why the BSB "bias" won't go away after Holmgren's comments??? Instead of "Flyers fans will love him..." howabout "He brings some much needed grit that's been missing...". Something. Anything. Pick a cliche.

Shero traded for Matt Cooke (who as I have been told has been as big a POS as Carcillo since he was in Juniors)...yet I don't recall Shero telling everyone that Pens fans are going to love him.

For Pete's sake, argue the BSB bias all you want but at least admit that your fans AND your organization bring a lot of that on themselves, too.

okay...well apparently you're intent on keeping this silly quote alive and portraying it as an admission of "guilt" - that the Flyers are still invested in, and committed to BSB-style hockey. Nothing could be further from the truth but it makes a good story (or complaint) I guess so.... carry on.

Obviously the Flyers' past includes the BSB years and it's an image the team has banked on and at times encouraged - maybe Homer's comment falls into that category, I'll grant you that. But the point is the comment wasn't so much about what CarBomb (god I hate that stupid name) would bring on the ice it was about selling merchandise. BSB-era Flyers' hockey, and anything that reminds Flyers' fans of it sells - you bet it does...but if you think there's anything close to that If-We-Can't-Beat-Em-At-Least-We'll-Bash-Their-Brains-In mentality on the ice these days I'd say you're wrong. Talking-up the BSB-era and that style of play - in any context by any Flyers' personnel is a PR schtick and not much more.

[edit: I would like to know just when Scottie Upshall became a "skill player" - lol.]

Edited February 4, 2013 by canoli

[CoachX]

Canoli,

I am reluctant to address a Pissburg fan, and refuse to do so unless it is essential. However, I would like to offer a POV to this discussion...

One of the things that gets overlooked in a conversation of this magnatitude is the dynamic of image. Some would argue it does not win games or championships. Okay, i ackonlwedge that POV. However, in recognizing that this franchise got much of its identity from the Bullies, you have to also acknowledge that the game is not always about the product on the ice. Philadelphia will never lose the identitiy of what those teams meant. Plain and simple, it does no want to. Much like some other teams might be identified for skill, this franchise wants to be recognized as the roughest and toughest. The intangible that brings is what happens in the stands. The energy and electricity in a Philadlephia arena can motivate and inspire its players. After all, tell me what other city would have a billboard with Riely Cote on it? The city loves fighters and wants to always be associated with that persona.

Paul Holmgren traded for Dan Carcillo becasue he was trying to bring that back to a team that needed that dymnamic. He wanted a player with some skill who would also fight anybody. He understood how a player like this would be more important to the city, than a princess prima dona who was part of a lethargic group of underachievers. A fan from another city will never understand this becasue it is not logical. Had carcillo panned out to be Scott Mellanby or Rick Tocchet type of player, the trade would be lauded as a great move. He was not that player and was a huge disappointment in the long run. Therefore the move was stupid.

I will say this though, I appreciated the move because it showed me that Holmgren was in touched with what I saw as a fan. He tried to put an exciting product on the ice.

[brelic]

Canoli,

I am reluctant to address a Pissburg fan, and refuse to do so unless it is essential. However, I would like to offer a POV to this discussion...

One of the things that gets overlooked in a conversation of this magnatitude is the dynamic of image. Some would argue it does not win games or championships. Okay, i ackonlwedge that POV. However, in recognizing that this franchise got much of its identity from the Bullies, you have to also acknowledge that the game is not always about the product on the ice. Philadelphia will never lose the identitiy of what those teams meant. Plain and simple, it does no want to. Much like some other teams might be identified for skill, this franchise wants to be recognized as the roughest and toughest. The intangible that brings is what happens in the stands. The energy and electricity in a Philadlephia arena can motivate and inspire its players. After all, tell me what other city would have a billboard with Riely Cote on it? The city loves fighters and wants to always be associated with that persona.

Paul Holmgren traded for Dan Carcillo becasue he was trying to bring that back to a team that needed that dymnamic. He wanted a player with some skill who would also fight anybody. He understood how a player like this would be more important to the city, than a princess prima dona who was part of a lethargic group of underachievers. A fan from another city will never understand this becasue it is not logical. Had carcillo panned out to be Scott Mellanby or Rick Tocchet type of player, the trade would be lauded as a great move. He was not that player and was a huge disappointment in the long run. Therefore the move was stupid.

I will say this though, I appreciated the move because it showed me that Holmgren was in touched with what I saw as a fan. He tried to put an exciting product on the ice.

I will take your word for it, because I'm not from Philly, so I don't know what the city's 'persona' is like other than what I read and see on TV.

However, I will say that, at least for me, one moment (at least in recent history) that personified playing for the Flyers crest on the front and not the name on the back was The Shift. I still get chills when I watch that, and part of me still can't believe they traded him away. Carter should have been enough to right the ship.

And Giroux carries that tradition well:

I hear what you're saying Coach, but to me the above clips show two players who are tough as nails, as talented as the best of them, have a mean streak in them, and aren't afraid to drop the gloves when it makes sense. That's who I want on my team.

Remember The Year Of Five Suspensions? Bowl-of-rice was just about the biggest waste of space that ever laced up (with some help, I'm sure) a pair of skates and Downie is about as stable as VX nerve gas.

EDIT: Forgot to add the Laperriere clip. Another example of a guy who left everything on the ice, literally and figuratively. Tough as nails, fierce competitor, and a smart hockey player.

[CoachX]

yeah there have been guys who were wastes. I would use that term to describe Jody Shelly today. I would agreee on Boulerice as well. But Carcillo in particular was not traded for becasue he was tha ttype of player.

Here are some names I think about:

Behn Wilson

Rick Tocchet

Mel Bridgman

Scott Mellanby

Dave Schulz

Dave Brown

Ed van Impe

Ron Hextall

Eric Lindros

Its not just the grit of a player, and i applaud your video clips and recognotion of those players, it also about being part of the tradition

[brelic]

yeah there have been guys who were wastes. I would use that term to describe Jody Shelly today. I would agreee on Boulerice as well. But Carcillo in particular was not traded for becasue he was tha ttype of player.

Here are some names I think about:

Behn Wilson

Rick Tocchet

Mel Bridgman

Scott Mellanby

Dave Schulz

Dave Brown

Ed van Impe

Ron Hextall

Eric Lindros

Its not just the grit of a player, and i applaud your video clips and recognotion of those players, it also about being part of the tradition

I really liked Mellanby and Tocchet. And Hextall had basically one great year and many mediocre ones, but man, that guy was a fierce (insane?) competitor.

[Podein25]

Hextall...that guy was a fierce (insane?) competitor.

Nothing wrong with a little bit of insanity. At least you know your alive. Unlike the current Flyers team, which barely registers a pulse.

Of course, I'm married to a real Viking woman, so I'm fond of the crazies.

[brelic]

Nothing wrong with a little bit of insanity. At least you know your alive. Unlike the current Flyers team, which barely registers a pulse.

Of course, I'm married to a real Viking woman, so I'm fond of the crazies.

Ahh, the Vikings Shall we call you Eirik the Red?

I loved watching Hextall. I used to play goalie a lot in street hockey when I was a kid, and I spent my time clanging my stick off the posts in a Hextallian ritual that drove my teammates nuts!!

[CoachX]

i liked the last McGinn fight and that rinaldo fight against Washington. But your point is well taken, they aren't very exciting. I used to watch games knowing that anytime Brashear took the ice, fireworks were coming. Now, its just the same 'ol stuff.

And there is a shortage of Viking women in NM so consider yourself fortunate

[Podein25]

@brelic

Yeah Hexy was the best. I loved listening to him do that to the posts with his stick. It must have been mildly intimidating to watch this crazy guy whacking the posts as if to say: "your legs are next buddy"

[ruxpin]

Chico Resch for the Devils and Potvin are both pretty bad too!

All the names mentioned are bad. Steiger in Pitt is simply horrible. But the Flyers have a pretty good (bad?) match with Coates.

[B21]

okay...well apparently you're intent on keeping this silly quote alive and portraying it as an admission of "guilt" - that the Flyers are still invested in, and committed to BSB-style hockey. Nothing could be further from the truth but it makes a good story (or complaint) I guess so.... carry on.

Obviously the Flyers' past includes the BSB years and it's an image the team has banked on and at times encouraged - maybe Homer's comment falls into that category, I'll grant you that. But the point is the comment wasn't so much about what CarBomb (god I hate that stupid name) would bring on the ice it was about selling merchandise. BSB-era Flyers' hockey, and anything that reminds Flyers' fans of it sells - you bet it does...but if you think there's anything close to that If-We-Can't-Beat-Em-At-Least-We'll-Bash-Their-Brains-In mentality on the ice these days I'd say you're wrong. Talking-up the BSB-era and that style of play - in any context by any Flyers' personnel is a PR schtick and not much more.

[edit: I would like to know just when Scottie Upshall became a "skill player" - lol.]

Whoa. Where did I say or even allude to the fact that the Flyers are committed to BSB-style hockey? I don't even think that. Just about every team has a player or two that has Carcillo's role. 4th line. Agitator. Big PIM guy. Some worse than others.

As for signing Carcillo as a merchadising move...yikes. That's a reach. I really don't think the Flyers were struggling to sell jerseys or t-shirts when they signed him.

However, you hit the nail on the head with "image". When Holmgren says what he says about a guy like Carcillo, he's clearly trying to keep that image around. I also don't want to confuse "image" with honoring the past. "Image" is not the same as banners in the rafters or celebrating the 40th anniversary of the Cup with pre-game ceremony featuring Clarkie & Co.

Regardless of the product on the ice, if that's the "image" you are going after then I can't get too upset if that image results in a few more penalties called/not called. That would be like me complaining that Crosby doesn't get a certain number of calls because of his reputation as a diver. Contrary to popular belief, there are times when he is obviously hooked, held or tripped and no call is made. Repuation? Maybe. Maybe not.

I also could care less if that's the image that the your wants to convey. But....the complaints that this image leads to bias against the Flyers? I don't think so but I have no problem if it does. Just like I have no problem if the reputations of Crosby or Cooke come back to bite them.

I think a player's individual reputation has a lot more affect than that of the organization he plays for.

[canoli]

As for signing Carcillo as a merchadising move...yikes. That's a reach.

No, that would be known as "the reason"

rea·son /ˈrizən/ Show Spelled [ree-zuhn]

noun

1.

a basis or cause, as for some belief, action, fact, event, etc.: the reason for declaring war.

Look B I'm not saying I'm better than Carcillo I'm only saying he had very little NHL-level talent, right? And the reason you hire a guy like that is to put asses-in-the-seats.

And all your attempts to link "BSB image" (presented how it is to the public, which was my point) to the product Homer's been putting together on the ice...it's just not so. There is a world of difference between what the '75 Flyers were planning pre-game and what our guys today are gearing up for. Sure there's crossover, out of tradition, out of necessity (it is a toughfkngame after all) - and another poster made the point (sorry can't rem your name - great post btw) how a team resembles or imitates its city - Philly is a tough, blue-collar town so naturally its hockey team...you get the idea...in Pissburgh it's black lung and yellowness ( ) - but please don't think for a minute the 2 eras in Philly produced the same or even remotely similar products on the ice...

[B21]

@canoli

<<< No, that would be known as "the reason" >>>

<<< Look B I'm not saying I'm better than Carcillo I'm only saying he had very little NHL-level talent, right? And the reason you hire a guy like that is to put asses-in-the-seats. >>>

Could not disagree more. The Flyers were close to 100% capacity before the Car Bomb and are close to 100% capacity after him. There is now way you'll convince me adding Carcillo was primarily due to money/sales/merchandise or anything of the sort. Carcillo was not needed to put fannies in the seats.

<<< And all your attempts to link "BSB image" (presented how it is to the public, which was my point) to the product Homer's been putting together on the ice...it's just not so. There is a world of difference between what the '75 Flyers were planning pre-game and what our guys today are gearing up for. Sure there's crossover, out of tradition, out of necessity (it is a toughfkngame after all) - and another poster made the point (sorry can't rem your name - great post btw) how a team resembles or imitates its city - Philly is a tough, blue-collar town so naturally its hockey team...you get the idea...in Pissburgh it's black lung and yellowness ( ) - but please don't think for a minute the 2 eras in Philly produced the same or even remotely similar products on the ice... >>>

Jeezus Mary and Joseph...I want to let this go but you are either missing my point or just not reading what I post. So a 2nd time...I do not think trading for Carcillo has anything to do with Holmgren wanting bring back BSB-style hockey - i.e - the product on the ice.

EVERY team has a goon handy. Just about every team has its agitator. Just about every team has a high PIM guy. Every team at some point will sign, trade for or call up a guy who's role is the same as Carcillo's role was for the Flyers. Not every team will be quoted as saying "our fans will love him". I/M/H/O that speaks VOLUMES about the image that the powers that be who run your organization want. It's also a good indication of what your fan base wants...at least how they want to be thought of. Again - not the product on the ice right now but what other teams and fans think of you. The image. Aura. Call it what you want.

Along with that image MAY come some bias from the league and officials. I don't think that's the case but a large number of your fan base does. Yet when that image leads to (perceived) bias, it's wrong to which I call BS. If you want that image, you get it and everything that comes with it.

It's the kid on the playground who wants to be thought of as the tough guy (even though he isn't) and then cries when he has no friends. Can't have it both ways.

[doom88]

Fans love energy guys.

[Polaris922]

Carcillo is a bigger douchebag than most. That's why the Pens traded him for Laroque. I think even Holmgren realized his mistake and let him walk.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Polaris922

[canoli]

whoa hold on there pal...Jesus Mary AND Joseph ... ?

think what you want, the Flyers don't play anything like BSB hockey these days - no more than any other NHL team. Our past is unique because 40 years ago we beat the crap out of every NHL team and won THE STANLEY CUP in the process - twice. But that doesn't mean Homer is glorifying it [or even alluding to it, frankly] by saying "Flyers' fans will love him" about Dan Carcillo. I mean seriously just how much mileage are you planning to get out of this one throwaway statement?

quoted as saying "our fans will love him". I/M/H/O that speaks VOLUMES about the image that the powers that be who run your organization want. It's also a good indication of what your fan base wants

Really? Jesus Mary and Joseph is right. Ya think maybe just possibly you're reading a teeny tiny bit more into this than it warrants? Naaaah...i guess not... Homer says "fans will love him" - obviously that automatically means he and his minions, we Flyers' fans are rabid Broad Street Bullies at heart. Definitely.

Along with that image MAY come some bias from the league and officials.

well then I guess you can be an NHL official, you've got the bias part down cold. You actually think some calls - for instance the "boarding" on Rinaldo 2 minutes in a couple games ago - are to be expected because of our 40-years-ago past.

Cuckoo!! Cuckoo!!

[B21]

@canoli

<<< think what you want, the Flyers don't play anything like BSB hockey these days - no more than any other NHL team. Our past is unique because 40 years ago we beat the crap out of every NHL team and won THE STANLEY CUP in the process - twice. But that doesn't mean Homer is glorifying it [or even alluding to it, frankly] by saying "Flyers' fans will love him" about Dan Carcillo. I mean seriously just how much mileage are you planning to get out of this one throwaway statement? >>>

You're either real stupid or your just being an annoying pissant on purpose. For the umpteeth time this has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WAY THE FLYERS PLAY NOW. Back to Holmgren's comment...so what was he alluding to? Flyers fans will love Carcillo's skill? His deft scoring touch? His wicked slap? He's know for being an annoying little douche and leading the league in PIM. You tell me...why on earth would Flyers fans love a guy like that?

<<< Really? Jesus Mary and Joseph is right. Ya think maybe just possibly you're reading a teeny tiny bit more into this than it warrants? Naaaah...i guess not... Homer says "fans will love him" - obviously that automatically means he and his minions, we Flyers' fans are rabid Broad Street Bullies at heart. Definitely. >>>

Um...yeah.

<<< well then I guess you can be an NHL official, you've got the bias part down cold. You actually think some calls - for instance the "boarding" on Rinaldo 2 minutes in a couple games ago - are to be expected because of our 40-years-ago past. >>>

I don't think that. Christ - you've been around long enough to know I've argued against any perceived bias for years (back to being the pissant again). I think I've made that point clear about three just in this thread. Many of your fellow Flyers fans DO think that. If I had a nickel for every time a bad call was blamed on the BSB rap I'd be a rich man. So maybe that's where your "cuckoo" comments should be directed.

[canoli]

For the umpteeth time this has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WAY THE FLYERS PLAY NOW.

eh? Wha? I can't hear you... sounds like you're dishing out the same old Magic Quote crap but you're screaming so I can't quite make it out. It wouldn't be that same tired line would it? ...that Homer's quote has "NOTHING TO DO..." but automagically also "speaks VOLUMES about..." My my what one little quote can accomplish in this big world...don't look now but I think there's somebody behind you...right there on the grassy knoll.

You're either real stupid or your just being an annoying pissant on purpose.

way to keep it civil...but all I can say is when a Penguins' fan insults me I know I'm doing fine... Thanks for the confirmation assshole.

[B21]

@canoli

<< eh? Wha? I can't hear you... sounds like you're dishing out the same old Magic Quote crap but you're screaming so I can't quite make it out. It wouldn't be that same tired line would it? ...that Homer's quote has "NOTHING TO DO..." but automagically also "speaks VOLUMES about..." My my what one little quote can accomplish in this big world...don't look now but I think there's somebody behind you...right there on the grassy knoll. >>

Huh? Automagically?

<< way to keep it civil...but all I can say is when a Penguins' fan insults me I know I'm doing fine... Thanks for the confirmation assshole. >>

Might want to take your own advice.

I'll try one last time to make my point as simple as possible. I could care less about the actual product on the ice. Let's get that out of the way. Sign/trade for all the Carcillos you want...I don't think that means the Flyers are trying to recreate the BSB's on the ice again. Back to the dead horse (ie - Holmgren's comments)...when that is what your GM thinks when he trades for a Carcillo it tells me he's playing to a fan base that wants to be thought of that way/have the aura of/have the image of those BSB teams.

And of course along with that image (accodring to your own fans) comes that (alleged) from the officials and other league disciplinarians. Me personally (aahhhhgain)...I do not think such bias exists. That said, if you want that image (not necessarily the product on the ice) then you can't really complain about what (you think) goes along with it.

Back to my analogy...like me complaining that Crosby doesn't get calls because of his reputation for diving.

[canoli]

According to your logic our GM should be giving out occasional comments like, "We're building a team of Prongers and Carcillos because that's what our fans love."

But then you say you're not talking about the product on the ice merely the BSB image.

Then you really go off the rails by trying to link that to "you should expect a certain amount of reputation calls" because of that image.

The BSB image is a marketing tool, it's a proven revenue stream. But you seem to be saying because Flyers' fans indulge it and our GM plays it up when he signs a tough guy that it creates reputation calls on the ice. Or...you're saying it doesn't create reputation calls, it's only Flyers' fans who feel it does. Have I got it yet?

[edit: I got it, right? Tell me, please...that's the only thing that can possibly make sense...that Flyers' fans are whiners about bad calls and we use some perceived bias against us from our BSB days...but then we also glorify those days when we sign a Carcillo-type. Is that your point? god i hope so. I still think you're dead wrong about the overwhelming majority of Flyers' fans - esp guys around here - but you're certainly entitled to your opinion]

I admit it, I am stupid when it comes to understanding Penguin mentality. I realize a lot of it is just jealousy and bitterness...I mean I'd feel the same way if I had to pretend to love Sidney Crosby and that I wasn't ashamed of tanking games to get Mario all those years ago...it's only natural. hehe...

In any event please try to understand "our fans will love him" = Marketing 101 and nothing more.

Edited February 5, 2013 by canoli

[B21]

@canoli

<< According to your logic our GM should be giving out occasional comments like, "We're building a team of Prongers and Carcillos because that's what our fans love."

But then you say you're not talking about the product on the ice merely the BSB image. >>

That's the gist of it, yes. Pronger is a bad example. The guy is a H of F defenceman. Every team at some point trades/signs/calls up a Carcillo type. I doubt the GM's of those teams are on record saying something similar to Holmgren.

<< Then you really go off the rails by trying to link that to "you should expect a certain amount of reputation calls" because of that image. >>

Wrong. I don't think you should expect 'reputation' calls for that reason. You seem to...at least a large number of your fas think so. If that's the mindset I find it hypocritical to want that image and the complain about the preceived bias that by their own admittance (not mine!) comes with it.

<<< The BSB image is a marketing tool, it's a proven revenue stream. But you seem to be saying because Flyers' fans indulge it and our GM plays it up when he signs a tough guy that it creates reputation calls on the ice. Or...you're saying it doesn't create reputation calls, it's only Flyers' fans who feel it does. Have I got it yet? >>>

I'm saying it does not. Many Flyers fans feel it does. Agree?

<<< Okay I admit it, I am stupid when it comes to understanding Penguin mentality. I realize a lot of it is just jealousy and bitterness...I mean I'd feel the same way if I had to pretend to love Sidney Crosby and that I wasn't ashamed of tanking games to get Mario all those years ago...it's only natural. hehe >>>

Which I admitted. Do you want a 2nd pound of flesh?

<<< In any event please try to understand "our fans will love him" = Marketing 101 and nothing more. >>>

Then we have reached 'agree to disagree' time. I think it goes beyond marketing.