Timonen: 1 year, 6 million deal

[Digityman]

Sorry fellas and all due respect to what he used to be, but these days he's just a 4 or 5 man on a lot of teams

Name one team that Timo would be a #5?

I could see him on a second pairing (#3/4) but #5?

I can't think of one team that would have him there.

[doom88]

Timo regularly breaks up odd man rushes, and does everything so effortlessly that it's just commonplace for him. Under appreciated outside of Philly I guess.

[doom88]

He better not..unless you mean AFTER next year...otherwise they get nothing for his cap hit

I left it intentionally ambiguous. I think after though. He wouldn't do that to Philly.

[Mad Dog]

Timonen WAS an All Star. Now he's just an overpaid veteran. Sorry fellas and all due respect to what he used to be, but these days he's just a 4 or 5 man on a lot of teams, and not worth $6 million by a long shot. You'd have been ten times better off with Streit, Visnovsky or Whitney. And probably could have one of them for that cash. I think sentimentality got in the way here.

4th? Maybe. 5th? No way. I just can't see any team being foolish enough to slide him all the way down to the 3rd defensive pairing.

With that said, I think this new contract is unsubstantiated and unnecessary. This move, right there, hamstrings the Flyers in what they can do. Perhaps the knowedge - or porjecitons - of what the free agency will look like htis summer played some role in Holmgren's decision. And I have no idea who may be free agents this summer; I am sure Holmgren and his team made all the proper research and evaluation. So it's very possible that they went down teh list of scheduled free agent d-men and decided Kimo at $6 mil, as high as it is, is still better than what they could get this summer.

[Bertmega]

@Polaris922

And what happens if teams with more cap room ink said named players at a higher price? Gasp Jagr, Carle, etc. What happens when the Flyers have L. Schenn and Mezaros as their 1-2 guys when they are not ready to be, nor capable of being 1-2 guys?

It's a one year contract, a stop gap until they can get their back end in order.

Do you go to sleep at night and dream of ways to trash every single Flyers move? You're getting very Rick-esque (no offense). In any case, it's not like the Flyers brass committed a 12 year contract to a marsh-mellow head.

EDIT:

*****Sorry, you're too hockey knowledgeable to be called a Buffalo Rick. In any case, yes it is easy to say the Flyers Management is pi$$ing valuable cap space away with these contracts, but there really isn't any other choice in the matter. And hindsight is why this team is dead last in the Atlantic (IMO)*****

Edited February 8, 2013 by Bertmega

[doom88]

5.5m for Carle is a good price, not sure why I have to say this again.

[krasy]

Timonen - Class act

Subban - Jerk

[jackhole]

You gotta hand it to KT though. The guy is everything to this defence except being large, which, is tough to fault him for. And nice of him to stick around, because if I had 1 more year to win the cup, and was staring free agency in the face, Homer is gonna have a tough time convincing me that its gonna happen in 2014.

[Polaris922]

Name one team that Timo would be a #5?

I could see him on a second pairing (#3/4) but #5?

I can't think of one team that would have him there.

Honestly Timo wouldn't even break the lineup in Pittsburgh. NOrmally I'd say he's a third pairing here, behind Orpik, Letang, Martin and Niskanen... but the way Depres and Bortuzzo have been playing, I'd scratch Timo. And I am sure the Rangers would have him in the number 5 slot.... LA, St. Louis, Boston... Chicago... Timonen would find himself the veteran presence but certainly NOT getting top pairing time. The Jets have a pretty solid defensive corps too... TImo would be #4 at best...

You forget he had a whopping 4 goals... ALL of which were on the power play. He had 39 assists on the number one pairing for your team which had the second (?) most potent offense in the league for the season. I saw a lot of Flyers games last year and highlight videos, and I'm positive most of those were secondary assists. Timonen is slow and fragile now, he has been a career star on positional defensive play, and he doesn't have the wheels to do it like he used to. I've gone over this time and again with die hard Timonen lovers, and as I've stated before, I think the guy is a class act and long time hero for your orange, but now? Now he's nothing but a veteran presence in the locker room. Your defensive corps is hurting, and that amplifies the importance of what has become a mediocre defenseman at best.

It happens to all players as they age. Timonen was never a Neidermayer or Coffey, never a Lidstrom or Murphy.. but he was a great defenseman for a long time. THose days are behind him now, and $6 million a year for a guy like him is just stupid. REALLY stupid.

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922

And what happens if teams with more cap room ink said named players at a higher price? Gasp Jagr, Carle, etc. What happens when the Flyers have L. Schenn and Mezaros as their 1-2 guys when they are not ready to be, nor capable of being 1-2 guys?

It's a one year contract, a stop gap until they can get their back end in order.

Do you go to sleep at night and dream of ways to trash every single Flyers move? You're getting very Rick-esque (no offense). In any case, it's not like the Flyers brass committed a 12 year contract to a marsh-mellow head.

EDIT:

*****Sorry, you're too hockey knowledgeable to be called a Buffalo Rick. In any case, yes it is easy to say the Flyers Management is pi$$ing valuable cap space away with these contracts, but there really isn't any other choice in the matter. And hindsight is why this team is dead last in the Atlantic (IMO)*****

I don't trash EVERY single Flyers move. LOL I do think Holmgren is a mistake of a GM for you guys. I think your team would be better off with a smarter hockey brain in there. I do think this move was pretty stupid. You can read my above post for the why of it. I just think you guys would have been much better off saving that extra $$ for going after a Visnovsky, Streit, or Whitney. Visnovsky and Whitney have a much higher offensive upside, and are still mobile positional players, as TImo used to be, in their own end. As for Streit, he can be a punisher in your own end with decent puck moving skills as well.

I suppose it's easy for me to judge what your team does from the outside. Honestly, with the rivalry between our teams, I look at a move your boys have made and if it makes me happy right away, I know it was a bad move for you. Seriously though, it's ALWAYS easier to judge the moves of another team. I have no sentimental attachments to any of your players, and I think that makes it easier when you're not looking at a guy's past or how much you appreciate what they've done for your team in history.

And don't worry I don't take offense to the Rick comments. I knew saw anything the guy posted so no worries there. And I find it kind of humorous that you post asking why I find fault with the move then in your post pretty much agree that it's a lot for what you're getting, which is all I've really said.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Polaris922

[radoran]

NOTE: Topics merged.

[Polaris922]

I'll certainly say that keeping a six-year veteran leader certainly played into the equation - whether that is "sentimentality" is a matter of opinion.

Sort of like keeping Guerin, with the aside that Timonen isn't aa hired gun, but pretty much one of the few foundations the franchise has had over six years.

I do think $6M is overpaying. I do not think that it hampers the Flyers' ability to ice a competitive team and I don't agree that Streit, Visnovky or Whitney brings the same skill set that Timonen has - for this franchise. They would all three also likely require a multi year commitment, which would hamper the Flyers' ability to deal with pending RFA status for Giroux/BSchenn/Couturier.

But aren't they the puck moving defensemen your team needs? If I were a Flyers fan, I would WANT one of those guys and I'd trade Timonen to get them if I had to. I know you don't agree, but I think any of those three is better than Timonen is now. What exact skill set do you feel Timonen still brings besides his veteran presence?

[Mad Dog]

I do think Holmgren is a mistake of a GM for you guys. I think your team would be better off with a smarter hockey brain in there.

No argument from me there. I think he is as clueless as they come. He gets lucky with some moves, but totally wings it for 90% of other trades/acquisitions. This is another product of Snider's unreasonable, unjsutifiable, blind loyalty. Unfortunately, as long as Snider owns the team, this is not going to change.

[Polaris922]

No argument from me there. I think he is as clueless as they come. He gets lucky with some moves, but totally wings it for 90% of other trades/acquisitions. This is another product of Snider's unreasonable, unjsutifiable, blind loyalty. Unfortunately, as long as Snider owns the team, this is not going to change.

That's a shame... I mean as a sports fan, setting aside all of the rivalry and my Pens following, your team has some real prospects that could develop into a great squad with just a move or two bringing in the "right" pieces. I just don't think Holmgren is the right guy to do it.

[radoran]

But aren't they the puck moving defensemen your team needs? If I were a Flyers fan, I would WANT one of those guys and I'd trade Timonen to get them if I had to. I know you don't agree, but I think any of those three is better than Timonen is now. What exact skill set do you feel Timonen still brings besides his veteran presence?

I like Visnovsky quite a lot. There is no indication he's going to do anything but go back to the KHL.

Streit has been up and down. As has Whitney. And - as I've said - I believe all three would want multi-year, high-paying deals. The Flyers are simply not in a position to sign those sorts of deals given the need to re-sign Giroux/BSchenn/Couturier (and fend off offer sheets).

I may not agree with the decision - and I would not be surprised in the least to see Schenn or Couturier dealt for a "puck-moving" defenseman - but I can see where the Flyers are coming from.

You may have noted in my posts, I am no fan of how the organization* runs itself.

Timonen's long term with the team is a valuable commodity for a team that has precious few such players (Briere/Hartnell really being the other two). He has value giving the younger players a role model, which is why, quite frankly, he should have been Captain before Richards.

Again, I *do* think that the Flyers slightly overpaid. I could see Timonen getting $5M elsewhere. I also believe that this leaves the door open for the "1%" chance he comes back with a $2-3M, swansong without the need to tie up a 35+ contract.

Also, for the record, your assertion that he "couldn't crack the lineup" in Pittsburgh is laughable and not worthy of further note beyond saying that the Pens would not sign Timonen given their situation and, in fact, they have no need to. Under those circumstances, he's just not the right fit which has nothing to do with his proper role. There was a time Souray "couldn't crack" an NHL lineup, yet he's doing fairly well out in Anaheim at the moment. Not my favorite comparison, but one that comes to mind.

There are needs that teams have. Timonen fills a need for the Flyers at a one-year commitment with lots of upside and little downside.

* term used loosely

[aziz]

NOrmally I'd say he's a third pairing here, behind Orpik, Letang, Martin and Niskanen... but the way Depres and Bortuzzo have been playing, I'd scratch Timo.

all due respect, but that's some homer goggles there. i don't disagree with much of what you said, other than rather drastically overvaluing, well, pretty much the penguin's entire d-corps. except letang. and letang is a fairly one-way guy. orpik, martin and niskanen are a combined -1 on a team that is +33 overall, and the three have 9 combined points. as opposed to timonen at +2 on a team that is -1 overall, with 6 points by himself.

timonen is past his prime, not worth anywhere near $6mil, really shouldn't be a 1st pair guy anymore (if only the flyers had options)...but he would absolutely be a 2-3 guy in pittsburgh. letang brings too much firepower to deny him any icetime, but the rest are either dramatically one dimensional (read: orpik) or decidedly mediocre (read: martin, niskanen). the three of them are 15-25 point guys, with niskanen and martin famously....exciting defensively. the two kids you are playing are looking really good...better than martin and niskanen, in fact. which kind of makes my point about them.

[Polaris922]

@radoran

@aziz

I suppose this is where you think I am homeristic (I like that new word) about it and I feel you guys are. Orpik and Martin have had stellar starts to this season. You're comparing point per point only, disregarding that Orpik never sees PP time and Martin's has been on a seldom used number two PP. These are the guys getting top ice time against the opponent's top line. Orpik and Martin are our shutdown pairing and have done quite well at it already this season. I'm just hoping Martin's last season was a fluke of horrible play. I think you're drastically overvaluing Timonen. The guy's just washed up... sorry, just how I see him.

As for your quotes of stats...you've included stats for Niskanen who has only played in five games, less than half of what Timonen has, yet has half TImonen's point production but with almost zero power play time. A healthy Niskanen is better than a healthy Timonen right now. Bank on that. Any of those three trump TImonen on defense overall. I would take Timonen over Orpik for point production, but he is very on par with Martin and NIskanen these days, except they're younger and much more mobile. Matter of fact, Martin is exactly the same as Timonen in point production, with almost zero power play time and sadly a -2 to TImonen's +2. So comparing them all... Timonen, Martin, Niskanen are very close statistically. Difference is all three of the Pens defensemen are younger, more mobile, in Orpik and NIskanen's cases MUCH more physical, and come half way through the season, will have a lot more leg left in them.

[radoran]

OK, I said absolutely nothing about stats or points.

[aziz]

I'm just hoping Martin's last season was a fluke of horrible play.

well, it wasn't an anomoly as far as his career has been concerned. that was just another season in the life of paul martin. maybe he learned something over the lockout and isn't brutal any more. maybe.

I would take Timonen over Orpik for point production, but he is very on par with Martin and NIskanen these days, except they're younger and much more mobile

er, what's that now? timonen was 5 shy of as many points as martin and niskanen combined last season. but...they are now "very on par"? 43 points is on par with 21 and 27? you have to see how you are coloring that, right? that's not even almost ballpark. yes, this season they aren't seperated by many points, but we're all of 11 games in and the flyers in general can't score goals so far. that will change at some point and i fully expect timonen will return to his .5p/gm pace....and martin/niskanen will continue on their careers' .25p/gm. timonen has slowed down and other options need to be explored, but it's not like i'm relying on what the guy did 12 years ago to make my case.

i don't think i'm being a homer in this, i see what timonen is, but a shell of his former self is not it. fading, yes, faded, no. frankly i'm more concerned with his durability as he ages more than i am declining ability.

[Jmdodgesrt4]

Wow. Paul Martin better then kimmo? I lost all respect for you there. Wow.

[Polaris922]

OK, I said absolutely nothing about stats or points.

Didn't mean to lump you in on that paragraph just typing one overall reply. My bad.

[Polaris922]

Wow. Paul Martin better then kimmo? I lost all respect for you there. Wow.

This year I firmly believe he is/will be. Barring last year I think he already was better defensively. The Pens don't need him to be a PPG'S guy, just solid defensively.

[Polaris922]

well, it wasn't an anomoly as far as his career has been concerned. that was just another season in the life of paul martin. maybe he learned something over the lockout and isn't brutal any more. maybe.

er, what's that now? timonen was 5 shy of as many points as martin and niskanen combined last season. but...they are now "very on par"? 43 points is on par with 21 and 27? you have to see how you are coloring that, right? that's not even almost ballpark. yes, this season they aren't seperated by many points, but we're all of 11 games in and the flyers in general can't score goals so far. that will change at some point and i fully expect timonen will return to his .5p/gm pace....and martin/niskanen will continue on their careers' .25p/gm. timonen has slowed down and other options need to be explored, but it's not like i'm relying on what the guy did 12 years ago to make my case.

i don't think i'm being a homer in this, i see what timonen is, but a shell of his former self is not it. fading, yes, faded, no. frankly i'm more concerned with his durability as he ages more than i am declining ability.

Martin is better defensively (barring last year) and I would argue comparable in offensive production. I know the stats favor Timonen, but again mostly PP points there and Martin doesn't see that.

As for Niskanen, he's been on a steady rise and should he return from his injury he'll outperform Timonen in every category come season's end. Unless your PP gets crap hot somewhere as Niskanen doesn't see much PP time. Timonen's ship has sailed...

Guess we'll just agree to disagree.

[aziz]

Martin is better defensively

uh. you've seen the guy play, right?

I would argue comparable in offensive production.

he broke 30 points 4 years ago, 35 points 7 years ago. timonen hasn't had less than 35 points in 12 years. PP, yes, but you don't think there's a reason that paul martin isn't given PP time? it's just an unfortunate thing that has nothing to do with his offensive meh-ness or his overall untrustworthiness with the puck? when a guy tells me that his 25 point dman is comparable in offensive production to a 40 point dman, i have to question his objectivity, you know?

As for Niskanen, he's been on a steady rise and should he return from his injury he'll outperform Timonen in every category come season's end

what does it mean that he's been on a steady rise? you mean he isn't a double digit minus player anymore? or that he went from 10 points total two years ago to 21 points last year? these are astounding things to you? they are the definition of a somewhat reliable 4-5 dman to me. who also isn't trusted with PP time.

Guess we'll just agree to disagree.

ha, yeah, i guess so. in the same way i agreed to disagree with the pens fans who insisted phil bourque was an elite winger because mike lang said his name a lot. but whatevs.

[Polaris922]

uh. you've seen the guy play, right?

he broke 30 points 4 years ago, 35 points 7 years ago. timonen hasn't had less than 35 points in 12 years. PP, yes, but you don't think there's a reason that paul martin isn't given PP time? it's just an unfortunate thing that has nothing to do with his offensive meh-ness or his overall untrustworthiness with the puck? when a guy tells me that his 25 point dman is comparable in offensive production to a 40 point dman, i have to question his objectivity, you know?

what does it mean that he's been on a steady rise? you mean he isn't a double digit minus player anymore? or that he went from 10 points total two years ago to 21 points last year? these are astounding things to you? they are the definition of a somewhat reliable 4-5 dman to me. who also isn't trusted with PP time.

ha, yeah, i guess so. in the same way i agreed to disagree with the pens fans who insisted phil bourque was an elite winger because mike lang said his name a lot. but whatevs.

Again I am not taking anything away from Timonen's history.. or his points accumulation through years past. Just now he's a shadow.

As for "trusted with PP time" I would say it's more a matter of both Martin and Niskanen being behind Letang in the skills department. We only use one D man on our PP.

People thought Bourque was elite? LOL Really? I wish I'd been here to argue that one! I'll give him "average grinder" status at best. lol