Erik Karlsson is good?

[rob13lee]

I was jk, I know he is good...

Erik Karlsson leads the league in shots on goal with 62. This is crazy to me. The next 40 or so players are forwards (Jack Johnson is 2nd on D men with 36).

HOWEVER,

I'm not a big stats guy since some of the most important players on their teams aren't going to stand out statistically. For example, Dan Girardi is among leaders in hits and blocks the past few years, and will contribute 25-30 points. These players are rare.

Karlsson is rare, but in a different kind of way. 78 points last year led D men by far, however, only had 60 hits, 65 block shots.

What type of player is more valuable? I know Karlsson would be picked ahead of Girardi 100% of the time, but are there as many GOOD defensive D men as there are good offensive Defenseman?

My first post, had to get it out of the way, sorry if it's lacking. Was just on my mind.

[hf101]

@rob13lee

Welcome rob

Good topic.

Looks like our favorite foe Cookie took out Karlsson with a hit along the boards that left him cut in the lower left leg.

edit: Update via habs in the shout box, ....... Karlsson: Erik suffered a laceration to his left achilles, which will require surgery to repair. He will be out indefinitely.

[rob13lee]

@hf101 I saw that... looks pretty bad. I started this post about 15 mins before I saw his injury.

[Polaris922]

@hf101

@rob13lee

Welcome Rob! Hate to see Karlsson hurt but at least it was a clean hit. Their jostling caused Cooke's skate to come up as happens on a lot of hits. Unfortunately it sliced Karlsson pretty good it looked. Hope he's able to heal up fast and get back in the game. He's a talent and fun kid to watch.

[hf101]

Their jostling caused Cooke's skate to come up as happens on a lot of hits.

Or did he deliberately have his skate up in the air as he checked Karlsson into the board??

[Polaris922]

@hf101

That's quite a stretch. If you watch them head into the boards Karlsson pushes back against him and he loses balance pushing with one leg to finish the check. Standard hockey check but bad result. If the skate were 2 inches lower it hits the skate and no harm done. Not like he pulled a Pronger here...

[hf101]

@hf101

That's quite a stretch. If you watch them head into the boards Karlsson pushes back against him and he loses balance pushing with one leg to finish the check. Standard hockey check but bad result. If the skate were 2 inches lower it hits the skate and no harm done. Not like he pulled a Pronger here...

It looks deliberate to me. Who goes into a check like that? Look at how off balance Cooke is, most players check with both feet on the ice not his knee lifted up. Play it in slow motion....Cheap shot for sure.

and he has history.....

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

Cooke's reputation precedes him on this play. Why was his foot off the ice? Was he trying to use his leg to corral Karlsson? I don't think I've ever seen that before. I can't say whether it was intentional but It raises my suspicion.

[jammer2]

@hf101 This is a huge loss for the Sens, there chances of making the playoffs just took a plunge...so basically Cooke might have just shifted the balance of power in the East, maybe allow another team to sneak in when the Sens get 5-8 less points due to the loss of Karlsson.

[Polaris922]

@hf101

Are you drinking? Lol. This short clip doesn't show Karlsson slow before the boards, Cooke hit him, they both raise sticks for the stick check... The raising of both their sticks in the air is what throws Cooke off balance and puts him on one skate.

I'm by no means a Cooke apologist for his past, but this is clean as hell, just unfortunate.

[hf101]

@Polaris922

Not enough to impair my viewpoint of Cooke.

I get that Cooke was trying to pin Karlsson along the boards, what I don't like is Cooke likely knew exactly where his blade was and made no attempt to lift his skate out and away probably because he was so unbalanced. But then if Cooke was that unbalanced his weight should have been on his right leg.....

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922

Not enough to impair my viewpoint of Cooke.

I get that Cooke was trying to pin Karlsson along the boards, what I don't like is Cooke likely knew exactly where his blade was and made no attempt to lift his skate out and away probably because he was so unbalanced. But then if Cooke was that unbalanced his weight should have been on his right leg.....

I think you're off on this one. Cooke's skate comes down on the calf when he goes to plant his skate on the ice to battle for the puck. Come on HF! Take the name off the jersey and you wouldn't look at this twice.

[brelic]

I think you're off on this one. Cooke's skate comes down on the calf when he goes to plant his skate on the ice to battle for the puck. Come on HF! Take the name off the jersey and you wouldn't look at this twice.

Exactly. Because Cooke is a dirty player who does this kind of stuff. So he gets no benefit of the doubt. It sure looked like he knew enough of what was going on to drive his blade down on Karlsson's ankle.

If it's a different player, maybe you accept the 'accidental' theory. But with Cooke? Hell no.

[Polaris922]

Exactly. Because Cooke is a dirty player who does this kind of stuff. So he gets no benefit of the doubt. It sure looked like he knew enough of what was going on to drive his blade down on Karlsson's ankle.

If it's a different player, maybe you accept the 'accidental' theory. But with Cooke? Hell no.

Doubt? There is no doubt here. That hit is as clean as any every given. Now if they were already hammered into the boards and Cooke lifted his skate and kicked the back of his leg (i.e. Chris Pronger) then this would be arguable. As it stands the only people seeing it as a dirty play are those not watching the video below the name tape.

[brelic]

Doubt? There is no doubt here. That hit is as clean as any every given. Now if they were already hammered into the boards and Cooke lifted his skate and kicked the back of his leg (i.e. Chris Pronger) then this would be arguable. As it stands the only people seeing it as a dirty play are those not watching the video below the name tape.

I didn't say anything about the hit not being clean. I'm saying that I don't immediately buy that Cooke had no idea what he was doing with his left foot.

I look at it in a similar way to the Steckl hit on Crosby. Steckl says it was incidental contact. It sure looked to me like Steckl stuck his elbow out and *knew* Crosby's head was there, but by kinda looking aloof, he can pass it off as "What? Oh I didn't know their star player was vulnerable right beside me... I swear *wink, wink*". I would argue it was the same with the Erskine hit too. Erskine knew exactly what he was doing when he brought up an ELBOW to hit Simmonds in the head.

So, with Cooke we'll never know the truth. You can sit here and argue all you want that his intentions were honourable, and I can sit here arguing the opposite. Unless Cooke is given some truth serum followed by shock therapy and forced to host his own NHL reality show, it will always be conjecture. That being said, with a guy like Cooke, he has a lot less credibility.

[Polaris922]

I didn't say anything about the hit not being clean. I'm saying that I don't immediately buy that Cooke had no idea what he was doing with his left foot.

I look at it in a similar way to the Steckl hit on Crosby. Steckl says it was incidental contact. It sure looked to me like Steckl stuck his elbow out and *knew* Crosby's head was there, but by kinda looking aloof, he can pass it off as "What? Oh I didn't know their star player was vulnerable right beside me... I swear *wink, wink*". I would argue it was the same with the Erskine hit too. Erskine knew exactly what he was doing when he brought up an ELBOW to hit Simmonds in the head.

So, with Cooke we'll never know the truth. You can sit here and argue all you want that his intentions were honourable, and I can sit here arguing the opposite. Unless Cooke is given some truth serum followed by shock therapy and forced to host his own NHL reality show, it will always be conjecture. That being said, with a guy like Cooke, he has a lot less credibility.

So you think Cooke is so amazing he could be off balance, arms above his head fighting a stick check, turned to face the opposite direction to protect his own face, planting his hips against a guy slamming into the boards at speed, and still have the wherewithal to aim a skate blade in a slashing motion across the back of someone's ankle above the skate boot which is covered by a sock? Good grief... He'd have to have a super computer for a brain with bionic terminator muscle control. Unreal...

[brelic]

So you think Cooke is so amazing he could be off balance, arms above his head fighting a stick check, turned to face the opposite direction to protect his own face, planting his hips against a guy slamming into the boards at speed, and still have the wherewithal to aim a skate blade in a slashing motion across the back of someone's ankle above the skate boot which is covered by a sock? Good grief... He'd have to have a super computer for a brain with bionic terminator muscle control. Unreal...

No, what I'm saying is I think Cooke plays dirty, and looks to injure players when they are in vulnerable positions. The fact that he was not suspended for the Savard hit doesn't mean he was oblivious to what he was doing. And I don't mean at that very instant. I mean that Cooke is a headhunter. That's part of his game. So to say that he had no intention to injure Karlsson might be true. But to say that Cooke, with what we know of him as the type of person and player that he is, in that moment, would never ever stomp on someone's ankle to injure them, to me is false. Giroux, Crosby, Toews, Datsyuk, Parise, Vanek... those guys would never dream of intentionally injuring another player. They are aware of their actions even in the heat of the moment, making split second decisions that are *different* than dirty players. Why is that? Because they don't have headhunting on their minds.

Sean Avery is another great example of a classic dirty player. Carcillo is another. I haven't watched Downie since he's been gone, but the dude was as dirty as they come. I remember that sucker punch to Jason Blake's eye while the ref has already immobilized Blake. He was defenseless and had no way of protecting himself, yet Downie drilled him one in the eye. That's the kind of players these guys are.

That's all I'm saying about Cooke.

[Polaris922]

No, what I'm saying is I think Cooke plays dirty, and looks to injure players when they are in vulnerable positions. The fact that he was not suspended for the Savard hit doesn't mean he was oblivious to what he was doing. And I don't mean at that very instant. I mean that Cooke is a headhunter. That's part of his game. So to say that he had no intention to injure Karlsson might be true. But to say that Cooke, with what we know of him as the type of person and player that he is, in that moment, would never ever stomp on someone's ankle to injure them, to me is false. Giroux, Crosby, Toews, Datsyuk, Parise, Vanek... those guys would never dream of intentionally injuring another player. They are aware of their actions even in the heat of the moment, making split second decisions that are *different* than dirty players. Why is that? Because they don't have headhunting on their minds.

Sean Avery is another great example of a classic dirty player. Carcillo is another. I haven't watched Downie since he's been gone, but the dude was as dirty as they come. I remember that sucker punch to Jason Blake's eye while the ref has already immobilized Blake. He was defenseless and had no way of protecting himself, yet Downie drilled him one in the eye. That's the kind of players these guys are.

That's all I'm saying about Cooke.

I won't argue that has been Cooke till last season. And I don't think one clean season means the man is out if the woods. I was of the impression you were saying he injured Karlsson on purpose. I misunderstood your intent there. I would agree if his elbow came up or something like that he'd deserve the accusation. I just feel those saying this was intent to injure or even reckless need their eyes checked. It's a hockey play, and hardly the first injury of its kind. Weekes was on NHL Tonight with some guy who makes slash proof socks. Now THAT sounds smart!

[ruxpin]

Or did he deliberately have his skate up in the air as he checked Karlsson into the board??

He definitely had the leg up deliberately to pin him to the boards; that's a fairly typical move. No way he intended the cut.

[ruxpin]

He'd have to have a super computer for a brain

Or at the very least a brain. Not sure of that .

[mojo1917]

When i saw this replay I was wondering what on Karlsson was hurt, i mean it is apparent he was in pain but i didn't see the contact to his ankle until the 3rd time viewing it,

Karlsson is a good skater, significantly better than Cooke so the fact that Cooke was trying to pin him against the boards by any means necessary wasn't unjustified.

i didn't think the play was dirty last night don't think it was dirty today, I do think that because of Cooke's reputation he is being scrutinized very closely. I think if it were anyone else making Cooke's play there wouldn't be a question... until it happens again.

It is unfortunate, both Spezza and Karlsson on the DL means a shift in how that team will play. let's see how they do without a top 4 dman and top 6 forward.

[brelic]

I won't argue that has been Cooke till last season. And I don't think one clean season means the man is out if the woods. I was of the impression you were saying he injured Karlsson on purpose. I misunderstood your intent there. I would agree if his elbow came up or something like that he'd deserve the accusation. I just feel those saying this was intent to injure or even reckless need their eyes checked. It's a hockey play, and hardly the first injury of its kind. Weekes was on NHL Tonight with some guy who makes slash proof socks. Now THAT sounds smart!

Haha, slash proof socks? We need concussion-proof helmets first I read a great article in Bloomberg BW over the weekend on the class action lawsuit against the NFL for head injuries (I think the actual allegations are gross negligence and conspiracy in the same way the tobacco industry hid evidence).

Anyway, back to the thread - I'm just saying that I would not be surprised in the least if Cooke tried to injure Karlsson yesterday, because that's the kind of scumbag he is. Whether or not he actually did last night, I don't think we'll ever know. So unless there is more conclusive proof, we have to accept that it was an accident.

[Podein25]

It's a hockey play

If that's a hockey play I must have been playing something that wasn't hockey all these years. If it was a hockey play, you'd expect to see it routinely, no?

I don't understand why Cooke has his foot up like that. Players know where their feet are. They're attached to their legs after all.

[Polaris922]

@brelic

Every doc I've heard on the subject, including the Pens team doc Burke and the USA hockey medical crew, say helmets have zero factor on concussions. And if you think about it it only makes sense. How can something outside the skull prevent a collision inside?

@Podein25

According to NHL.com and Weekes on NHL Tonight these injuries are fairly common. And looking back at some history, they're at least not all that rare. Watch the whole frame video at normal speed, not the one posted here. Watch Cooke's arms, loss of balance, and where his face is turned before impact. It's a hockey play. Stuff happens.

[Podein25]

@Polaris922

Fair enough I will do that. I only watched the slow-mo version posted here