Interesting stats

[pensuck]

I know a few of you guys on here are upset about not re-signing Matt carle. He's got 7 points and a-3 on a team that scores a lot of goals. Basically we picked up Luke Schenn to replace him. Luke has 3 pts and a +3 on a team that cant score. He also is one of the top hitters in the NHL. I think ee have a budding defensive star in Luke. He's only 23-24 and will only get better. What do you guys think?

[JackStraw]

I like Schenn but he's not a replacement for Carle, points notwithstanding. Carle is a better skater and puck mover. He generates more offense, creates more motion in the offensive zone. I would like to have both.

Edited February 15, 2013 by JackStraw

[mojo1917]

I know a few of you guys on here are upset about not re-signing Matt carle. He's got 7 points and a-3 on a team that scores a lot of goals. Basically we picked up Luke Schenn to replace him. Luke has 3 pts and a +3 on a team that cant score. He also is one of the top hitters in the NHL. I think ee have a budding defensive star in Luke. He's only 23-24 and will only get better. What do you guys think?

Different players entirely with different games, I like Luke, but we didn't replace Carle's game with his, we didn't replace Carle's game with anyone, as a result we look like a slow, disorganized, team in our zone frequently and have Curtis Foster playing NHL minutes on our team....

I don't think you are whistling past the grave yard, and do believe that L Schenn is going to improve now that he's going to have a defined role , but you are kidding yourself if you think this team doesn't miss what Carle brings with his skating, vision, and durability .

[pensuck]

I think that they thought mezaros would pick up the slack of carles puck movement. When healthy that is. For what carle got paid i dont think he's worth that much. Jmo

[Mad Dog]

For what carle got paid i dont think he's worth that much. Jmo

I don't think so either, but the market is soft when it comes to offensive defensemen. The plan, as I undertsand it, was to get Gus and Bourdon going, hoping they will take a big leap in their development, and sign Shea Weber or Ryan Suter. None of that has materialized, of course, and it's hard to put all the blame on Homlgren. The problem is, he gambled big time with Weber. There was exactly a 50/50 chance the Nashville would not match. He gambled big time with Suter as well, as there was no certinaty he would be even remotely interested in coming to Philadelphia. Plus, he *knew* Meszaros would be coming back after a very serious injury, so there was no guarantee he would be effective. And Gus and Bourdon... well.... it was a big and not well-substantiated assumption they were ready to take on a bigger role.

Holmgren made his plans based on pure prognostications and gambling, hoping at least some of his plans would come to fruition. He did the same with regard to handling forwards (not resigning Jagr).

And when everything single plan of his failed, he was caught off guard and was completely unprepared to react. At the end, he lost Jagr, Carle, and JVR and repalced them with Fedotenko, Gervais, Luke Schenn and Foster. Of this group, only Schenn has some decent value, and even that is based almost purely on expectations and nothing else.

This was by the far the worst off-season I can remember the Flyers management had in a long time.

[Polaris922]

Schenn is playing well and looks to be on the path everyone hoped he'd be. But as Mojo said he's not the offensively gifted D-man your team needs.

[doom88]

@MadDog I don't know about that offseason comment. At least Homer didn't overpay for anyone with a lifetime contract. That in of itself is a win.

[sekkes85]

I know a few of you guys on here are upset about not re-signing Matt carle. He's got 7 points and a-3 on a team that scores a lot of goals. Basically we picked up Luke Schenn to replace him. Luke has 3 pts and a +3 on a team that cant score. He also is one of the top hitters in the NHL. I think ee have a budding defensive star in Luke. He's only 23-24 and will only get better. What do you guys think?

Can't really compare a defensive defensemen to an offensive one. Schenn has had a few hiccups but overall I have been very impressed and he should only get better. That being said Carle would GREATLY help this team especially with Meszaros out. I don't think Schenn came in to replace Carle as you state, but I'll gladly take him.

Carle got so much crap in this town, I don' think the haters realized everything he brought to the table, especially with that 1st pass to feed a rush. That kind of pass is essential to Lavy's run and gun "system"

[doom88]

Regarding Lavy's system...would you rather give them the business, or bend over and take it?

[pensuck]

Yes you really cant compare the 2 of them because of their different styles. I understand that. But we let carle walk and made the trade for Luke. With a healthy mezaros i like the move. We can sit gervais or foster then and should have a solid d core. Back to the real problem , offense. Thats the real problem...

[Polaris922]

Yes you really cant compare the 2 of them because of their different styles. I understand that. But we let carle walk and made the trade for Luke. With a healthy mezaros i like the move. We can sit gervais or foster then and should have a solid d core. Back to the real problem , offense. Thats the real problem...

That's expecting a lot out of Meszaros. He's a 30 point guy but doesn't move the puck or have the vision the way Carle has. He does have a better shot, but I dunno if that helps your breakout the way Carle did. There is more offense in him than anybody else you currently have though, so we'll see I suppose how much it helps.

[Poulin20]

For all the times that Carle moved the puck out of our zone nicely he also turned it over in our own zone a bunch (that led to the puck ending up in our net more times than not). That was the knock on him from our fans. I liked Carle but would not have resigned him at that price, he was at his zenith when he was paired with Pronger, after that he was still good but not great IMHO.

[mojo1917]

@Poulin20

You are experiencing selective memory, Carle's stats are those of a top tier player.

If he turned the puck over "a lot" it is because he handled it far more than any of his teammates.

He was and is worth the money he's making, I say that begrudgingly because the guy we get to replace his minutes will cost the same, probably more, and will have a flaw or two in his game... Just like Matt Carle

[Bakanekimiwa]

Do we even need to trade for Schenn if we kept Carle? And if we don't trade for Schenn we still have JVR.... Scoring help that is sorely missing.

All of the moves, and non moves, of this past off-season, point to Fail. The flyers org failed, plain and simple.

[Mad Dog]

Do we even need to trade for Schenn if we kept Carle? And if we don't trade for Schenn we still have JVR.... Scoring help that is sorely missing.

All of the moves, and non moves, of this past off-season, point to Fail. The flyers org failed, plain and simple.

Exactly right. The Flyers would be much, much better off with just staying put last summer - keep Carle, keep Jagr and keep JVR. While none of these players are necessarily game breakers, they were all serviceable pieces. Holmgren, in his ever-lasting wisdom, have subtracted all these pieces and replaced them with sheer garbage. What exactly was the point of bringing Gervais and Foster... the outcasts of the league? He made moves just for the sake of making moves, so he could not be accused of doing nothing, which, again, would actually be a more superior option.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Mad Dog

[pensuck]

Would jvr be as good as he is right now with the flyers? Why'd they trade him? Being non consistent and injured? Not having our top two scorers from last year for quite a stretch here isn't helping either. I say lets get everyone healthy and see what happens. A shortened season doesn't help but who knows???

[Poulin20]

@Poulin20

You are experiencing selective memory, Carle's stats are those of a top tier player.

If he turned the puck over "a lot" it is because he handled it far more than any of his teammates.

He was and is worth the money he's making, I say that begrudgingly because the guy we get to replace his minutes will cost the same, probably more, and will have a flaw or two in his game... Just like Matt Carle

Not trying to be a smart aleck or anything Mojo I am asking this honestly, which stats of Carle are we speaking of and which top players are we comparing him to? I was never a Carle hater or anything and I appreciated his unique skill set of moving the puck which we do miss. However the market dictated a very steep price for him and while I see his value I do agree with letting him walk for a 5.5 M cap hit over 6 yrs. As you correctly pointed out Schenn is not a replacement for him as Schenn has a totally different skill set and we do miss having a defenseman with that skill set. I just don't like him at the market price.

As far as the giveaways go it has nothing to do with selective memory. The stats don't lie, he was the Flyers giveaway leader last year.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20122PHISASALL&sort=giveaways&viewName=rtssPlayerStats

We can argue as to why that is but he was our turnover machine last year. In a non cap situation I would definitely keep him but just not at 5.5.

[doom88]

Look at how much he was on the ice (all 82 games):

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?gameType=2&position=S&season=20112012&sort=timeOnIce&status=A&team=PHI&viewName=timeOnIce

He wasn't perfect, but Carle was an unfair whipping boy.

[Poulin20]

I know what you guys are saying that he played the most and is human and is going to make more mistakes as a result but does that absolve him of those mistakes, does that make him worth the 5.5M cap hit? Without the benefit of hindsight of us missing out on the UFAs and sucking this year can you guys put your hands on your hearts hand on your heart and say that you would have resigned Carle for that price? Again I am not asking to be snarky but just to honestly get your takes on this.

[HansonBros17]

@Mad Dog

I believe in adding Gervais and Foster Holmgren was simply trying to add right-handed depth defensemen. Right-handed D-men were noticeably absent last year's playoff run, I think Andrej Meszaros was the only RH D-man at the time. All defensemen added for this season (Schenn, Gervais and Foster) are RH.

That said, is there anybody here who is both RH and can skate backwards?

[doom88]

I know what you guys are saying that he played the most and is human and is going to make more mistakes as a result but does that absolve him of those mistakes, does that make him worth the 5.5M cap hit? Without the benefit of hindsight of us missing out on the UFAs and sucking this year can you guys put your hands on your hearts hand on your heart and say that you would have resigned Carle for that price? Again I am not asking to be snarky but just to honestly get your takes on this.

I.

[JackStraw]

I know what you guys are saying that he played the most and is human and is going to make more mistakes as a result but does that absolve him of those mistakes, does that make him worth the 5.5M cap hit? Without the benefit of hindsight of us missing out on the UFAs and sucking this year can you guys put your hands on your hearts hand on your heart and say that you would have resigned Carle for that price? Again I am not asking to be snarky but just to honestly get your takes on this.

You have to put the stats in context. Take a look at this:

http://www.nhl.com/i...rtssPlayerStats

Last year the following players had more giveaways than Carle (who was 25th overall):

Chara, Subban, Burns, Carlson, Yandle, Karlsson (Norris winner), Doughty. I think most of us would very much like to have any one of those guys. Puck carrying defenseman, especially the ones who play big minutes like Carle, are going to give the puck up a lot. It comes with the job. They are the guys forecheckers are gunning for, and sometimes the forecheckers win. Check the stats for any year you choose and you'll see the same thing.

Edit: Just noticed Luke Schenn had more giveaways than Carle last year. So there you go.

Edit 2: The previous link was just defensemen. Include all skaters and Carle drops into the 40's:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20122ALLSASALL&viewName=rtssPlayerStats&sort=giveaways&pg=2

Still a lot of defensemen on the first page of leaders though.

Edited February 18, 2013 by JackStraw

[doom88]

Great post @JackStraw

[JackStraw]

@doom88 - at this point Carle is water under the bridge. But mojo was right in his earlier post, whoever ends up filling Carle's role will make a lot of money and will probably have (in the eyes of some fans) the same "flaws". Hopefully people will cut him more slack than they gave Carle.

[mojo1917]

@Poulin20

i'm having a hard time finding a statistics page that ranks Carle outside of the top 25 defensemen in the league, most have him rated as 21 so that puts him in the top pairing of a top 10/11 team in the league if you just do simple division of players to teams.

admittedly I'm not sure where i'd find the giveaway takeaway stats if it weren't for @JackStraw 's post. point is there are a load of players who turned the puck over more than Matt Carle and they make more money and would be welcomed to town with open arms until they played here for a season and we got to see the warts in their game.

That Carle is now playing in Tampa has made our team worse not better.