Gut the Roster!

[off_the_post]

I am not ready to throw the towel in just yet. However I would be working the phones and having some closed door meetings with Timo and Briere.

I would not buy out Bryz just yet or target to do so next year simply because, and has already been stated, what is plan B that doesn't cost key assets? Any other goalies in the Russian league looking to come over adn get traded to Columbus???

[ruxpin]

Ahem

Such blasphemy will undoubtedly end up hijacking this thread, but I tell you, had Pelle Lindbergh lived he would have been run out of town within 3 years by the same fan base that adores him postmortem. He was (seemingly) human, so he would have undoubtedly run into a slump at some point and the myopic fans would have screamed for whomever the backup was (Froese, Hextall, Gomer Pyle). And on an odd year (assuming coach is even) the Flyers would have traded him for Adam Oates or some crap.

[Podein25]

I'm hard pressed to disagree with your assessment Senor @ruxpin

Oh, and I think the thread has already been hijacked by all this Bernier talk - my apologies.

I should state for the record that I'm leaning toward the OP's instincts on this question (just not his "instincts" about armadillos)

[JackStraw]

I'm hard pressed to disagree with your assessment Senor @ruxpin

Oh, and I think the thread has already been hijacked by all this Bernier talk - my apologies.

I should state for the record that I'm leaning toward the OP's instincts on this question (just not his "instincts" about armadillos)

Armadillos??? Is the OP someone we once knew? In another universe?

Edit: Ahhhh... New Mexico... that explains some things.

Edited February 26, 2013 by JackStraw

[CoachX]

when i used the term "gutting" the roster, I meant getting rid of the veterans that comprised the last "core". Timmonen, Hartnell, Briere are three names with big contracts that have been around for awhile. You move what you can of the old look, and focus solely on a new look. I would even consider goinig outside to bring in a new GM. I like Homer but its time for a change in the right direction.

Bryz has only been around two seasons, so he isn't part of that culture, but he was brought in as a long term solution. Scrap that idea now, and find a new direction.

When the NMC wer put into place it was at a time when the team looked differently and the organization had different needs. Timmonen has stated next season will be his last. Briere probably has a few good years left. I honestly believe that if the organization approached them and said they were not part of the future, and we are looking to rebuild, they would be amenable to a move that gave them a chance to compete for a cup. As long aas the franchise stills thinks they are building a contender, these guys will hang on to the NMC.

I think history has shown the Flyers what happens when they trade a young player too soon. Two seasons ago JVR had a great playoffs. Then he bombed. Now he is in toronto, two goals off the league lead. I hope they learned thier lesson and choose not to part with any of the young guys they have now.

[CoachX]

I'm hard pressed to disagree with your assessment Senor @ruxpin

Oh, and I think the thread has already been hijacked by all this Bernier talk - my apologies.

I should state for the record that I'm leaning toward the OP's instincts on this question (just not his "instincts" about armadillos)

i see no reason to bring my personal life into this ....

however, putting aside the fact that my feelings would be hurt if I had any, I laughed like hell at your porsche comment

[OH1FlyersFan]

It is an old cliche you can't fire the whole team so the coach has to go. This deserves some consideration. There are many inconsistencies on this team and he has not had them ready at the start of each game. I know they are big league rs and should be ready to play but sometimes they need a kick in the butt before they remember that. It looks like this team needs a hard a$$ to light the fire.

Lindy Ruff still available?

[OH1FlyersFan]

Agree on Bryz. I think he's really getting run down. I think he even admitted that he was tired, and you rarely hear professional athletes admit that. Even the bat-sht crazy ones.

Seems like we end up running down every goalie that has ever played for the Flyers, except maybe Parent. There will never be another Parent. No goalie will ever live up to that standard. We beat them down, they leave, and then we repeat the cycle. So I can't blame the guy if he's feeling tired or run down.

That said, if we had a great goalie, maybe we could break out of that viscious cycle/circle. If we had a goalie who could make routine saves, we'd be on our way to breaking that cycle. Bryz has played better this season and I'm encouraged and I was, probably still am, all for buying out his contract. But in the last few games, he's let in some shots that have me seeing shades of the guy from last season. Now I'm getting nervous.

[JackStraw]

Seems like we end up running down every goalie that has ever played for the Flyers, except maybe Parent. There will never be another Parent. No goalie will ever live up to that standard. We beat them down, they leave, and then we repeat the cycle. So I can't blame the guy if he's feeling tired or run down.

I don't think it's because of the fans or the city, it's because he's playing a ridiculous amount. Not only is he playing virtually every game, but he's doing it with usually just one day's rest in between starts. And that's when he's not playing both ends of a back to back. Lavi needs to have some confidence in Boosh, no matter how unjustified it may be.

[OH1FlyersFan]

I don't think it's because of the fans or the city, it's because he's playing a ridiculous amount. Not only is he playing virtually every game, but he's doing it with usually just one day's rest in between starts. And that's when he's not playing both ends of a back to back. Lavi needs to have some confidence in Boosh, no matter how unjustified it may be.

I agree - his playing schedule factors into it. Last time I saw a stat he had something like just under 1000 minutes on ice. It is a ridiculous amount. But I really do believe that added to that is the mental pressure that comes with playing in goal in Philly - or any position for that matter when you don't perform up to expectations. (as an aside - is that unreasonable? An interesting topic for discussion. Personally, I don't think it is unreasonable to be held accountable to a very high standard and called out for falling short. So maybe I'm part of the problem). That's why I think part of the reason is because of the fans, the media, the city - it's almost impossible to tune that out if they're all coming down on you. It got in his head last season. Maybe he can play through it this season, but it can play a part in wearing a guy down.

[JackStraw]

@OH1FlyersFan - it definitely got in his head last season, althought I think it was as much his own doing as the fans and the media. But up until the last week or so he's been very good and looking focused. But I thought he looked tired, just a bit slower, several games back and he's struggled a bit ever since. And playing behind the Flyers defense is not going to make anyone feel good.

[ruxpin]

I would even consider goinig outside to bring in a new GM. I like Homer but its time for a change in the right direction

Agreed. Although I think the "lesson" they'll take is that they went outside with Lavy, so now they'll bring Primeau or Desjardins in to coach, and when that fails, blame the goalie.

[brelic]

I wouldn't necessarily argue with your logic, but is a young #1 goalie prospect more valuable to this franchise than a young #1 defenseman prospect? If Couts is the most valuable trading piece, I would argue you trade him for what the team needs most. I'm not as down on Bryz this year as most, so I think trading for a goalie prospect is not necessarily the best move if it costs Couturier.

Good question. I think it's about time we build from the net out. Is Bernier that guy? Maybe, maybe not.

But you're right... a #1 defenseman prospect would be a smart move too. Any suggestions? Are you thinking someone who is already on an NHL roster, like an Ekman-Larsson or a Hamilton (not that we would be able to pry either of those away from their teams)? Or a new draftee who isn't on a roster yet? A young roster player will cost you more, but will be NHL-ready and can step right in. A prospect who isn't yet playing in the NHL will cost you less, but it also sets the team back in terms of experience and the time needed to develop him.

[ruxpin]

I just don't trade Coots at all. We're not a goalie away. We're not a defenseman away. We're not even a goalie + a defenseman away. You have a solid young team up the middle and a couple good wingers. Build around that. He's 20 for God's sake. Draft a goalie/defensman this summer, keep Bryz--or a suitable average guy--until the draftee is ready. Same with the dman. Then go fill in a bonafide studmuffin through FA when this young group of forwards is ready in 2-3 years.

I'm not trading a guy who is going to be VERY good for a goalie for this team right now. No way. It would be like the Cubs going out and getting a $20M closer. If they're not ever winning after the 7th inning, what's the point to that?

[brelic]

I just don't trade Coots at all. We're not a goalie away. We're not a defenseman away. We're not even a goalie + a defenseman away. You have a solid young team up the middle and a couple good wingers. Build around that. He's 20 for God's sake. Draft a goalie/defensman this summer, keep Bryz--or a suitable average guy--until the draftee is ready. Same with the dman. Then go fill in a bonafide studmuffin through FA when this young group of forwards is ready in 2-3 years.

I'm not trading a guy who is going to be VERY good for a goalie for this team right now. No way. It would be like the Cubs going out and getting a $20M closer. If they're not ever winning after the 7th inning, what's the point to that?

I don't know if you're responding to me or not, but I agree we're not a goalie or defenseman away.

Drafting goalies in the early rounds should be part of our strategy anyway, and especially now. But unless we get extremely lucky and have a very high draft pick, I don't think a drafted goalie would be ready for 5+ years. So, that's fine, and we should do that anyway as part of long term planning. But that also puts Giroux at 30 years old when the goalie is ready, if he is ever ready. It'd be nice to do something during the Giroux window, and I'd be ok trading for a young (but somewhat proven) up and coming goaltender even if that means someone like Coots going the other way.

If Coots ends up reaching his potential, and the goalie we traded for does as well, then we both win, don't we? Of course, we're the Flyers, so that means we'll have a competitive team that won't quite win, while all former Flyers come back late in their careers with Stanley Cup rings around their fingers.

[ruxpin]

I don't know if you're responding to me or not...

Not you specifically. Just kind of throwing it out to the discussion.

Drafting goalies in the early rounds should be part of our strategy anyway, and especially now. But unless we get extremely lucky and have a very high draft pick, I don't think a drafted goalie would be ready for 5+ years. So, that's fine, and we should do that anyway as part of long term planning. But that also puts Giroux at 30 years old when the goalie is ready, if he is ever ready. It'd be nice to do something during the Giroux window, and I'd be ok trading for a young (but somewhat proven) up and coming goaltender even if that means someone like Coots going the other way.

Fair point. Not sure it would necessarily have to be 5 years, though. But maybe three is even too long. I still say let the core continue to develop and the goalie we have should be fine...so long as they get a backup. I don't blame Lavy for not playing the refuse Holmgren got him.

If Coots ends up reaching his potential, and the goalie we traded for does as well, then we both win, don't we? Of course, we're the Flyers, so that means we'll have a competitive team that won't quite win, while all former Flyers come back late in their careers with Stanley Cup rings around their fingers.

I don't trade Coots. Not for a goalie. A goalie is such a crap shoot (even worse since we're talking about Philly) and Coots is going to be very good. You might talk me into a 24 year old Nick Lidstrom or Chris Chelios, but not a goalie.

And yes, you're right, it's Philly. So not only would Coots have a ring while Philly fandom crucifies another goalie or coach (depending upon what day it is), but you could add him to the list of 20 or so ex-Flyers who score EVERY SINGLE TIME they play us.

[brelic]

I don't trade Coots. Not for a goalie. A goalie is such a crap shoot (even worse since we're talking about Philly) and Coots is going to be very good. You might talk me into a 24 year old Nick Lidstrom or Chris Chelios, but not a goalie.

Yeah, I would definitely be nervous about trading Coots for a Bernier. While I like the idea of getting a top goalie, they really are a crapshoot.

Not for nothing but there is a rumour out there now that Flyers are interested in Tyler Myers, and what I've read has Coots + a draft pick or Laughton + Cousins + pick going the other way.

Would you make that trade?

And yes, you're right, it's Philly. So not only would Coots have a ring while Philly fandom crucifies another goalie or coach (depending upon what day it is), but you could add him to the list of 20 or so ex-Flyers who score EVERY SINGLE TIME they play us.

No doubt! And when they come back to Philly (Fedotenko) they never score again. Funny how that works.

[JackStraw]

Good question. I think it's about time we build from the net out. Is Bernier that guy? Maybe, maybe not.

But you're right... a #1 defenseman prospect would be a smart move too. Any suggestions? Are you thinking someone who is already on an NHL roster, like an Ekman-Larsson or a Hamilton (not that we would be able to pry either of those away from their teams)? Or a new draftee who isn't on a roster yet? A young roster player will cost you more, but will be NHL-ready and can step right in. A prospect who isn't yet playing in the NHL will cost you less, but it also sets the team back in terms of experience and the time needed to develop him.

Well, at this point I'm thinking any or all of the above. If they can draft a guy in the top 10 who might be NHL ready in a year or so, I'd be satisfied. If there's a young guy already in the NHL that would be fine, but like you say, harder to get and will cost more. I lean toward the draft personally, from reading scouting reports it seems like there will be some good prospects in this draft.

[jammer2]

@brelic At this point, I'd trade anyone on the roster (except Giroux) for a true #1 goalie. Just fix this mess, once and for all!!! Then build your team around him, from the net on out.

[BearOnIce]

I really think its time to gut the roster, start new, and change the paradigm (think outside the box). Help me out here guys, I'm sure I'm not thinking all this through, and making mistakes out of sheer ignorance.

1) Trade Briere to a contender for whatever meager return you can get. Take a pick or prospect, but make sure its cheap. Reward Briere with a chance to compete for a cup and rid yourself of salary. I think its in the 6 mil range.

2) At season's end buy out Bryzgalov. He aint it! Move on and be done with this. Save salary again. I don't know how the buy out works, so I'm not sure if they would clear his entire slary next season. (6 mil again?)

3) I would approach Kimmo and tell him we are going in another direction and offer to trade him to a contender (see Briere above). He is under contract so he will get paid next season and the Flyers have freed up another 6 mil. In fact, I think this option has already occured to the Flyers, and may be the other reason they signed him a few weeks ago. A player under contract has more security not having to negotiate with the team he is traded to.

Assuming all this happened, I would free up around 12-18 million, on top of whatever they already have, to go sign younger free agents and increase their chances in the upcoming draft.

Fire away!

Now seriously, you know that I agree with what you say but what are you smoking? You realize that this team has a GM called Holmgren and a owner named Snider and it's 38 years and counting, right? And now we bring back another relic, a Simon Gagne. man, I have never seen anything like this homerism and inseduous behavior with any sports team.

Briere, Kimmo, Bryz - Do it now. Shake it up. This team is a stinkin' turd, lazy and inconsistent and they need a hard beating. Keep them worrying if they are next to go and wetting their pants until some real hockey players show up in those Flyer uniforms.

[Podein25]

...my feelings would be hurt if I had any

Yes, I've heard that about you. It's like you have a hard armadillo shell around your heart that nothing can, er, penetrate.

[flyercanuck]

Yeah, I would definitely be nervous about trading Coots for a Bernier. While I like the idea of getting a top goalie, they really are a crapshoot.

Not for nothing but there is a rumour out there now that Flyers are interested in Tyler Myers, and what I've read has Coots + a draft pick or Laughton + Cousins + pick going the other way.

Would you make that trade?

No doubt! And when they come back to Philly (Fedotenko) they never score again. Funny how that works.

I'd do Laughton, Cousins and a pick (not this years 1st) for Bernier, but not Couturier. I just don't see Bernier as any sure thing yet. He's still all potential, and Philly sucks at developing that in goalies.

[radoran]

I'd do Laughton, Cousins and a pick (not this years 1st) for Bernier, but not Couturier. I just don't see Bernier as any sure thing yet. He's still all potential, and Philly sucks at developing that in goalies.

They can send two 1s and a 3 to LA for Berrnier and then flip Bernier to, oh, say, Columbus for a 2nd and two 4ths.

Then, of course, they have to send that second out for something...

[flyercanuck]

They can send two 1s and a 3 to LA for Berrnier and then flip Bernier to, oh, say, Columbus for a 2nd and two 4ths.

Then, of course, they have to send that second out for something...

Paul, is that you?

[canoli]

There are many inconsistencies on this team and he has not had them ready at the start of each game

this.

sorry I didn't read past Phlyer1's comment - maybe someone already pointed out how troubling this is. The HC has one job in effect, to have his team ready to compete. The Flyers continue to sleepwalk their way through the 1st period...many times into the 2nd this year...and then depending on the game they either wake up in the 3rd - usually with "too little too late" being the outcome - or they don't. Either way it isn't a recipe for winning hockey games. Lavy has to see what's going on, the question is can he do anything about it?