Gut the Roster!

[CoachX]

I really think its time to gut the roster, start new, and change the paradigm (think outside the box). Help me out here guys, I'm sure I'm not thinking all this through, and making mistakes out of sheer ignorance.

1) Trade Briere to a contender for whatever meager return you can get. Take a pick or prospect, but make sure its cheap. Reward Briere with a chance to compete for a cup and rid yourself of salary. I think its in the 6 mil range.

2) At season's end buy out Bryzgalov. He aint it! Move on and be done with this. Save salary again. I don't know how the buy out works, so I'm not sure if they would clear his entire slary next season. (6 mil again?)

3) I would approach Kimmo and tell him we are going in another direction and offer to trade him to a contender (see Briere above). He is under contract so he will get paid next season and the Flyers have freed up another 6 mil. In fact, I think this option has already occured to the Flyers, and may be the other reason they signed him a few weeks ago. A player under contract has more security not having to negotiate with the team he is traded to.

Assuming all this happened, I would free up around 12-18 million, on top of whatever they already have, to go sign younger free agents and increase their chances in the upcoming draft.

Fire away!

Edited February 26, 2013 by TheCoach

[radoran]

I really don't see any of those moves as "gutting the roster" - as Timonen and Briere are nearing the end of their tenures and Bryzgalov's buyout remains a glaringly obvious move (note that I am a Bryz "defender" around here).

The problem is the NMCs on Timonen and Briere and what I would consider the organization's reluctance to part with either.

They do have the option of buying out both Briere and Bryzgalov after next season and drop Timonen's cap hit as well, and that's (IMO) the more likely scenario.

Giroux/BSchenn/Couturier are all RFA after 2014 and I certainly expect some offer sheets to come calling after Homer's tilting at the Weber Windmill. Having cap space will be important.

"Win now" has been a failure for... ever? I think there is the base of a long term plan here and I, for one, would like to see them try to develop it.

[murraycraven]

Have to agree w/ Rad here.... moving Briere/Kimmo is not gutting... if you gut the roster you are talking about trading Schenn, Jake, Wayne, Cooter, etc... this team needs to keep and develop the youth and not get impatient for once...

[Phlyer1]

It is an old cliche you can't fire the whole team so the coach has to go. This deserves some consideration. There are many inconsistencies on this team and he has not had them ready at the start of each game. I know they are big league rs and should be ready to play but sometimes they need a kick in the butt before they remember that. It looks like this team needs a hard a$$ to light the fire.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Phlyer1

[pensuck]

I agree with getting what you can for briere and dumping bryzs contract next year. Kimmo is a tough call. Only if we're definitely out of the playoff picture do i get rid of him. I dont think anyone will offer sheet coots. Yes he's not bad for his age but we have A LOT of young kids on this team. Who do u keep and how do you get better? I know coots is like God on this sight but i would consider moving him for the right price. As well as everyone said he played against malkin last year the guy still had 8 pts in 6 games. Hes also looked pretty much invisible this year. If you want a good player u have to give one up. We still have G, Schenn, Jakub, Simmonds and Read. All young and looking very good.

[JackStraw]

It is an old cliche you can't fire the whole team so the coach has to go. This deserves some consideration. There are many inconsistencies on this team and he has not had them ready at the start of each game. I know they are big league rs and should be ready to play but sometimes they need a kick in the butt before they remember that. It looks like this team needs a hard a$$ to light the fire.

I lean toward agreeing with you. I do think Lavi is a "light the fire" kind of guy, I don't think that's the problem. But I'm not sold on his "system". I know he supposedly instituted a more defensive approach this year, but it's hard to say that it's working. I think his system is a high risk/high reward type of system, and if everything doesn't click on a particular night then the risks are going to outweigh the rewards. I think especially with so many young players, a more tightly structured style would work better.

[brelic]

I think Timonen is more important to this team than Briere. So, the team could buy out Briere but I'm not sure I see that happening until the end of next season when Briere would only have one year left on his contract and we need the space to re-sign Giroux, Brayden Schenn, Couturier, and Read who will all get raises.

Timonen is only on the books for one more season, they gave him a NMC, so he's not going anywhere.

When it comes to buying out Bryzgalov, you gotta think of who replaces him. And I know I've mentioned this before, but I'm still not convinced that any other goaltender behind this porous defense and offense-focused system would really fare much better. I'm pretty sure that behind a Tippett or Hitchcock coached Philly team, we're not having this discussion about Bryz. In terms of UFAs, there's really only Backstrom and Thomas. I can't imagine Thomas ever wanting to sign in Philly at 39 years old. What's in it for him? He would be much more likely to sign with a team like Chicago, San Jose, Detroit, Pittsburgh, or any other serious cup contender either as the starter or even the backup at his age.

So, even if you free up cap space by buying out Bryz, you're going to weaken the one spot where we're always weak with no viable replacement.

I don't see the need to make any of these moves until the end of next season, when you evaluate what you have at that point.

[Mad Dog]

But I'm not sold on his "system".

I start to believe the players are not either...

[Lindbergh31]

I think Timonen is more important to this team than Briere. So, the team could buy out Briere but I'm not sure I see that happening until the end of next season when Briere would only have one year left on his contract and we need the space to re-sign Giroux, Brayden Schenn, Couturier, and Read who will all get raises.

Timonen is only on the books for one more season, they gave him a NMC, so he's not going anywhere.

When it comes to buying out Bryzgalov, you gotta think of who replaces him. And I know I've mentioned this before, but I'm still not convinced that any other goaltender behind this porous defense and offense-focused system would really fare much better. I'm pretty sure that behind a Tippett or Hitchcock coached Philly team, we're not having this discussion about Bryz. In terms of UFAs, there's really only Backstrom and Thomas. I can't imagine Thomas ever wanting to sign in Philly at 39 years old. What's in it for him? He would be much more likely to sign with a team like Chicago, San Jose, Detroit, Pittsburgh, or any other serious cup contender either as the starter or even the backup at his age.

So, even if you free up cap space by buying out Bryz, you're going to weaken the one spot where we're always weak with no viable replacement.

I don't see the need to make any of these moves until the end of next season, when you evaluate what you have at that point.

What about going another way, buying out Bryzgalov and trading for Bernier from LA, he's played in the minors to develop and he's stuck behind Quick in LA and I'm sure would love to be a number one starter somewhere. It wouldn't hurt to see what LA would want for him in a trade.

[DaGreatGazoo]

I would bet a bottle of rum that Backstrom doesn't hit the open market..with Harding's MS diagnosis, I'm pretty sure the Wild will lock him up before then. Assuming he wants to be in Minnesota....

[brelic]

What about going another way, buying out Bryzgalov and trading for Bernier from LA, he's played in the minors to develop and he's stuck behind Quick in LA and I'm sure would love to be a number one starter somewhere. It wouldn't hurt to see what LA would want for him in a trade.

I would love Bernier. But he will definitely cost Couturier or B. Schenn in a package. Bernier will be 25 at the start of next season, and he's an RFA as of June 1 this year. I'm sure you could sign him for $2M per season for 2-3 years, given that he only has 55 games of NHL experience and not much of a resume to demand a higher salary.

But if we do that, I think we can afford to keep Bryz next year with Bernier. Leighton, Shelley, Fedotenko, Walker, and Foster are all expiring at the end of this season, and I do't imagine we'll be re-signing any of those guys. You've replaced Leighton with Bernier, and the only regular in the rest of the bunch is Fedotenko that can be easily replaced by a cheaper option.

So, given that, would you still want Bernier if it cost Couturier or Schenn? At this point, I would trade Couturier before Schenn but admittedly, that's because of Schenn's emergence this year. He's been excellent and Couturier seems to have taken a step back from last season. Maybe that's due to age difference, where Schenn is a bit more mature and more 'ready' for the NHL speed. And I'm sure Coots will turn out to be a top 6 forward. But, we need help in goal.

I *think* Bernier is the real deal, though I can't say I've really watched him play much. And what you do in 55 games in the NHL behind a strong defensive squad like LA might be masking weaknesses we have yet to see. I honestly don't think Bernier would be any better in Philly than Bryz, at least for the first year. After that, maybe we see the emergence of all that 'promise'.

Tough choices and no clear cut answers.

[Podein25]

@brelic

Bernier has a pedigree, but his body of work in the NHL is just not that extensive. I don't think he's worth Cooter or B Schenn and it would prolly cost us one of them plus something (a 2nd rounder no doubt)

[ruxpin]

I think Timonen the guy who washes the jocks is more important to this team than Briere.

Fixed it. No charge. It's what I do.

[brelic]

@brelic

Bernier has a pedigree, but his body of work in the NHL is just not that extensive. I don't think he's worth Cooter or B Schenn and it would prolly cost us one of them plus something (a 2nd rounder no doubt)

Well, I guess there's a few ways to look at it. Why do you think Cooter is not 'worth' Bernier? Is it because you think Cooter will be a better center than Bernier will be goaltender? That's one way to look at it. And, really, it's a crapshoot on both players. Bernier is rated 8.0B on HF, which means he could drop as much as one rating point to a 7.0.

Couturier is ranked 8.5C, which means he could drop as much as 2 points to a 6.5. Essentially, whoever ranked them believes that there's a better chance for Bernier to reach his potential than Couturier. But they're just projections, so who knows?

Another way to look at it is whether or not a (potential) #1 goaltender (whose ranking puts him in the category with Fleury, Vokoun, Ward) is 'worth' more to the Flyers than a #1/#2 center (whose ranking has his ceiling somewhere between Mike Richards and Eric Staal).

Objectively, I think a young #1 goaltender is more valuable to this franchise than a #1 center. Giroux and Schenn are the future right now. Laughton may figure into those plans if he develops well. If not, finding a good #3 center is not that difficult and can be had on the cheap.

[ruxpin]

@brelic

I honestly think Bernier is another Marty Biron. Biron looked great as the backup in Buffalo but couldn't carry the water as the starter. I just really suspect Bernier will be the same.

For full-time work, I'd stick with Bryz and keep the kid forwards.

What would REALLY help is a backup that could eat some games with a modicum of success. I think Bryz is quite a bit better than last year, but I suspect the work load is beginning to take its toll. Just wait another month. He'll have either a 7.56 GAA or he'll be on the shelf due to injury.

[JackStraw]

Well, I guess there's a few ways to look at it. Why do you think Cooter is not 'worth' Bernier? Is it because you think Cooter will be a better center than Bernier will be goaltender? That's one way to look at it. And, really, it's a crapshoot on both players. Bernier is rated 8.0B on HF, which means he could drop as much as one rating point to a 7.0.

Couturier is ranked 8.5C, which means he could drop as much as 2 points to a 6.5. Essentially, whoever ranked them believes that there's a better chance for Bernier to reach his potential than Couturier. But they're just projections, so who knows?

Another way to look at it is whether or not a (potential) #1 goaltender (whose ranking puts him in the category with Fleury, Vokoun, Ward) is 'worth' more to the Flyers than a #1/#2 center (whose ranking has his ceiling somewhere between Mike Richards and Eric Staal).

Objectively, I think a young #1 goaltender is more valuable to this franchise than a #1 center. Giroux and Schenn are the future right now. Laughton may figure into those plans if he develops well. If not, finding a good #3 center is not that difficult and can be had on the cheap.

I wouldn't necessarily argue with your logic, but is a young #1 goalie prospect more valuable to this franchise than a young #1 defenseman prospect? If Couts is the most valuable trading piece, I would argue you trade him for what the team needs most. I'm not as down on Bryz this year as most, so I think trading for a goalie prospect is not necessarily the best move if it costs Couturier.

[JackStraw]

@brelic

I honestly think Bernier is another Marty Biron. Biron looked great as the backup in Buffalo but couldn't carry the water as the starter. I just really suspect Bernier will be the same.

For full-time work, I'd stick with Bryz and keep the kid forwards.

What would REALLY help is a backup that could eat some games with a modicum of success. I think Bryz is quite a bit better than last year, but I suspect the work load is beginning to take its toll. Just wait another month. He'll have either a 7.56 GAA or he'll be on the shelf due to injury.

Agree on Bryz. I think he's really getting run down. I think he even admitted that he was tired, and you rarely hear professional athletes admit that. Even the bat-sht crazy ones.

[Podein25]

@brelic

Let me back up a bit. I suppose I could live with one of those guys going for Bernier straight up. But I'm convinced that the ask would be greater. Hell, LA has prolly turned down offers better than that and they show no signs of wanting to trade him for anything but maximum return.

But to answer your question, the issue I have is certainty that Bernier will become a #1 workhorse vs the certainty that B Schenn and S Cooter will both become 70-80 point centers

[ruxpin]

Here's an idea, although not for the immediate future: DRAFT A DAMN GOALIE

[radoran]

Agree on Bryz. I think he's really getting run down. I think he even admitted that he was tired, and you rarely hear professional athletes admit that. Even the bat-sht crazy ones.

He is playing entirely too much. There won't even be fumes by the time the playoffs arrive at this rate. I'm happier with him this year, but the amount and length of the contract are big worries for me.

I wouldn't trade anything for Bernier rightnow, but I would back up an RFA offer sheet for him this summer and buy Bryz out in 2014.

[ruxpin]

I wouldn't trade anything for Bernier rightnow, but I would back up an RFA offer sheet for him this summer and buy Bryz out in 2014.

Rad, what are the current rules on RFA signings?

The reason I ask is that if you sign Bernier as an RFA, your overlapping year idea could be brilliant. If Bernier can carry the workload as the starter, then you buy out Bryz. If not, then buy out Bernier.

[radoran]

Rad, what are the current rules on RFA signings?

The reason I ask is that if you sign Bernier as an RFA, your overlapping year idea could be brilliant. If Bernier can carry the workload as the starter, then you buy out Bryz. If not, then buy out Bernier.

I believe they are virtually unchanged from the previous CBA.

And what do you mean "could be" brilliant?

[Podein25]

Here's an idea, although not for the immediate future: DRAFT A DAMN GOALIE But don't let them drive Porsches

Ahem

[radoran]

@Podein25

Too. Soon.

[Podein25]

The reason I ask is that if you sign Bernier as an RFA, your overlapping year idea could be brilliant. If Bernier can carry the workload as the starter, then you buy out Bryz. If not, then buy out Bernier

I have no idea what's brilliant vs what's just plain dumb - I've lost my ability to discern the difference.

But I have to comment on life imitating art by saying I just got an offer from a GM to give me Bernier in my keeper pool. Might cost me someone like Eberle though (goalies are crucial to winning our league). So I guess I need to decide if I think Bernie is bona fide future #1 material....