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Please just buyout Bryz already


Guest filly4life

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With that said, I simply don’t have any confidence in Holmgren to build the team. And therein lies the problem.

It's really "only" one blind spot...but unfortunately it's huge: Goaltending. Or you could say "Defense in general." It seems the Flyers are stuck on "goalie-schmolie just score more goals than the other team."

We had a good long look at that strategy and we went far with it, all the way to Game 6 of the Final. Between our offense and some good luck we came thisclose to winning it all. Ultimately though the weakness of the strategy was exposed. When the going got tough...4th round...Game 6...everybody exhausted, guys banged up etc. ... when you absolutely had to have solid Team D (including your goaltender) and a mindset of DEFEND ... the plan backfired and we failed. Kane scoring from that ridiculous angle was - in a way - the logical conclusion of the strategy.

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I would honestly say keep Bryz another year, but this summer they better get a young goalie with some potential. Someone who can still be coached the fundamentals of the position and adapt to the teams game style. An apparent successor to the thrown.

Outside of that, if we go young to start and throw him in the fire, we're going to see yet another has been getting paid like an all-star.

My beef(s) with Bryzgalov is he needs a defense first team strategy to mask his flaws, cannot win a 1-on-1 battle to save his life, has piss poor lateral movement, and has mediocre shot anticipation. The last can mask his poor lateral movement, but often leaves him high and dry should an opposing player get open if he's caught out of position. Oh and his stick handling and decision with the puck is brutal.

The good: he's a work-horse that is capable of playing 65+ games, he can scramble around the bluepaint to limit garbage goals and he is a huge presence in net.

However, at the end of the day the contract is a tough one to swallow. Not that is his fault, it's just a reality.

I would hope though regardless of what the Flyers plans are with the guy, that they get a young and serviceable back-up. No more retreads, no more buddy contracts, ENOUGH.

The real concern this off season should be and is defense at all costs.

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the Flyers being the Flyers, they will want to be as competitive as possible, and I give them tons of credit for that. With that said, I simply don’t have any confidence in Holmgren to build the team. And therein lies the problem.

also I might add...that Flyer Fans are a special breed. I don't think the masses would accept mediocrity for a few years for the sake of bettering the club down the road. Not trying to compare fan bases, but Cowboy fans have a similiar mentality. The Cowboys never rebuild, they just reload. Well the same can be said for our fan base. There are many out there, who I believe, will never accept a rebuild mentality. Hence the pressure on management to mortagage away our future for a win mentality now.

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Never know. If Ottawa stays in the hunt they are really going to need a center with Spezza going down. Cough Cough Briere. Right now it would be tough for either Bishop or Lehner to move up with the way Anderson is playing. I would think that those two could come cheaper than Bernier. I think LA is really holding everyone hostage with Bernier.

funny thing about Anderson. He used to be the back up to Leaky Leighton when they both play for Norfolk of the AHL. Back then, Anderson was ALWAYS considered a better prospect then Leighton. Anderson started his 1st NHL game before Leighton, was a starter before Leighton....

Too bad we couldn't have made a run for him a few yrs ago when he was a FA.

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I really believe that what happened to Pronger was the determining factor in the team's demise... more so than not having a true starting goaltender. The team has never seemed to been able to cope with him not playing. I am convinced even with Bryz' crappy play, if he had healthy Pronger, we would've dealt with the Devils.

This.

The "problem" the Flyers have is that the foundation upon which they rested the team's future was on the back of a guy who played 13 games of that "future."

I'm not questioning the trade here, but the deal was deliberate circumvention and their failure to understtand the 35+ rule remains a serious impediment (even with LTIR - witness their cap-strapped situation now).

The team enjoys shovelling huge piles of cash around, but really - in terms of hardware - has precious little to show for it.

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Flyer Fans are a special breed. I don't think the masses would accept mediocrity for a few years for the sake of bettering the club down the road.

I've read this type of statement many times over the years, this or some variation of it. For the life of me I'll still don't know what it means Doc, I really don't.

So what are "we" going to do, stop going to games? Quit buying the merchandise? I highly (highly) doubt it. Not unless the suckage continues for ... I'll say 5 years. After 5 years of missing the POs, looking like the Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight etc. - like the Leafs basically, or the Isles (till this year) - then I guess fans would begin to "vote with their wallets" and send a message.

But an honest rebuilding effort with young, hungry players getting the minutes? Unfortunately we jettisoned Bob but if we hadn't we'd basically be that young, rebuilding team right now. We'd have a few key veterans but mostly guys who are 25 or under. And the most important position would have a 22-year old starting...a guy most of us really liked.

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funny thing about Anderson. He used to be the back up to Leaky Leighton when they both play for Norfolk of the AHL. Back then, Anderson was ALWAYS considered a better prospect then Leighton. Anderson started his 1st NHL game before Leighton, was a starter before Leighton....

Too bad we couldn't have made a run for him a few yrs ago when he was a FA.

And Ottawa got Bishop for a second rounder last season. At the time he was one of the best goaltending prospects in the minors. Ottawa has done a real good job of getting goalies for next to nothing.

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The only bad goal last night you can pin on Bryz was Nash's first goal. The other three were all defensive breakdowns.

Before you anoint Lundquist as so much better maybe look at the D and tight checking the Rangers employ - it's not even close to compare the two teams.

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The "problem" the Flyers have is that the foundation upon which they rested the team's future was on the back of a guy who played 13 games of that "future."

I don't think this is really "the" (thee) problem. The problem - the One Big Outstanding and Obvious problem is goaltending. Sorry, I know you love to defend Bryzgalov and you're generally right when you do. He hasn't been "the big problem" this year...till about 2 weeks ago. Since then we've left precious points on the table all because our goaltender sucks monkeyballs.

Last night is a prime example.

[edit: almost any other goalie stops Callahan's 2nd goal. So it's 2-1 going into the first intermission. Momentum is with us not the Rags. Everything is different and I know it's impossible to know what would've happened but it's safe to say even if the Rags tie it on Nash's laser from 12 feet out, they don't go ahead on his 2nd goal, another Bryzgalov meltdown. Tied after regulation=1 point]

Edited by canoli
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Bryz is an average goalie (over the past two years) but being paid as an elite goalie with:

1) a below average defense corps (23rd in the league in GA)

2) a offence first system (Lavy)

3) a very young team

In 8th grade math terms:

Average goalie + below average defense + Offense first system = a sub .500 team you see today.

The other thing of note is the downward trend in offensive production from the Flyers defensemen.

11-12 season - 186pts or 2.3pts per game

12-13 season - 39 pts or 1.6pts per game

That's nearly a point less per game. That can be the difference of the 8th seed vs 10th seed IMO.

Flyers only have 3 defensemen in the top 100 in points = Timmonen (#10), L. Schenn (#62 ) & Coburn (#94)

Having the best defense corps in the NHL would help make Bryz look better, but nothing will fix the fundamental flaws in his game and in his head.

Excellant post! Sums it pretty neatly......

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I don't think this is really "the" (thee) problem. The problem - the One Big Outstanding and Obvious problem is goaltending. Sorry, I know you love to defend Bryzgalov and you're generally right when you do. He hasn't been "the big problem" this year...till about 2 weeks ago. Since then we've left precious points on the table all because our goaltender sucks monkeyballs.

Last night is a prime example.

[edit: almost any other goalie stops Callahan's 2nd goal. So it's 2-1 going into the first intermission. Momentum is with us not the Rags. Everything is different and I know it's impossible to know what would've happened but it's safe to say even if the Rags tie it on Nash's laser from 12 feet out, they don't go ahead on his 2nd goal, another Bryzgalov meltdown. Tied after regulation=1 point]

As usual, I'm not "defending" Bryzgalov as much as looking at a bigger picture than what's just between the pipes. Is "defending" Bryz saying that the Callahan goal should have been stopped; that I've seen statues with more fluid movement than Bryz going up against Nash; and that he should be bought out? Heckuva "defence" that.

That said, the way this team is playing, Lundqvist wouldn't have them in the playoffs. Trying to pretend that if another goalie was between the pipes that the team wouldn't have the same problems is, at best, disingenuous. Was it you that said they would have beaten the Devils in the game they lost 3-0 if Bryz wasn't in goal?

This team had a five minute power play against Ottawa - including two minutes of 3-on-5 - AND COULDN'T SCORE A GOAL.

Yet they won that game 2-1. Bryz made 33 saves. True story.

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Yeah that's what I mean. So okay Philly isn't Toronto; they're not quite as hockey-mad in Philly. But pretty much any Canadian city (even the ones without an NHL team) will outclass an American one for hockey fans. But on the other hand Philly is not Pittsburgh or Washington (or Tampa or Raleigh) either. In Philly there is a dedicated hockey fan base that's been loyal since 1974.

Ed and the brain-trust in Philly really owe to it the city to re-think the road they're on with Bryzgalov. If Ed is afraid he's running out of time to win another Cup...well he's right. But it has to be obvious by now that Score More Than The Other Guys just isn't getting it done.

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@canoli

I posted in another thread the Flyers could have Seidenberg, Carlsson, Sbissa, Hamilton and Maata instead of Nedved, Eminger, Pronger, Couturier and Laughton. As much as everyone likes Couturier and some old memories, this is a no brainer.

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I've read this type of statement many times over the years, this or some variation of it. For the life of me I'll still don't know what it means Doc, I really don't.

So what are "we" going to do, stop going to games? Quit buying the merchandise? I highly (highly) doubt it. Not unless the suckage continues for ... I'll say 5 years. After 5 years of missing the POs, looking like the Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight etc. - like the Leafs basically, or the Isles (till this year) - then I guess fans would begin to "vote with their wallets" and send a message.

But an honest rebuilding effort with young, hungry players getting the minutes? Unfortunately we jettisoned Bob but if we hadn't we'd basically be that young, rebuilding team right now. We'd have a few key veterans but mostly guys who are 25 or under. And the most important position would have a 22-year old starting...a guy most of us really liked.

I'm not sure if I am explaining it well. Since the Flyers have a been a pretty successful club throughout their history, people unrealistically expect them to contend for the cup every year. Are these just the causual fans?? I don't know. Am I suggesting boycotting everything Flyers, no. I just think some fans have unrealistic expectations of this club year in and year out without consideration of the actual talent this club has. Am I making any sense?

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Trying to pretend that if another goalie was between the pipes that the team wouldn't have the same problems is, at best, disingenuous.

it's not "disingenuous" at all it's reality. You are severely minimizing (ignoring actually) the effect "another goalie" has on a team. It seriously would take too long to type it all out but suffice to say a different presence in net can have far-reaching consequences to a team - to their "psyche" (if you will) their motivation and ultimately to their skating legs.

and Rad...I said you were "generally right" when you defend Bryzgalov. I know you're all for buying him out, I know he's not your hero or anything (!). But you do defend his play as irrelevant to the Flyers' woes this year. It's not irrelevant. Even in games they win Bryzgalov does not inspire confidence and that has to affect the way your team skates.

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@ruxpin

I respectfully disagree with the tiredness. They have not had any back to back games in a week and Bryz had 2 days off between Sat. game and last night. I would understand if they played like 3 games in 4 days, but this is not the case. I totally agree with your concerns though. Honestly I have no idea what Bryz's problem is. If he has a problem it is he can/t score goals while he is net. You can't win with only Vorachek and Symonds the only guys scoring. The defense is mediocre and lackluster at best. Having said all that I do think a better offense(playing in the other guys zone) would help.

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@canoli

I posted in another thread the Flyers could have Seidenberg, Carlsson, Sbissa, Hamilton and Maata instead of Nedved, Eminger, Pronger, Couturier and Laughton. As much as everyone likes Couturier and some old memories, this is a no brainer.

yeah this is the crux of the bisquit (as Zappa said) right here. All those coulda-should-woulda moves have one thing in common, which many of you have noted for years: We're all about Big Splash FA Signings and the appearance of a Win Now mentality. It's only an appearance of "win now" because obviously Pronger can't skate all 60 minutes, he can't play goal and he won't last more than a few years at best.

I was all for bringing him over despite the cost (though not despite the stupid contract) and hindsight doesn't convince me it was a bad move. Unfortunately it wasn't an outlier or an aberration of an otherwise solid strategy - it was the strategy itself!

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I'm not sure if I am explaining it well. Since the Flyers have a been a pretty successful club throughout their history, people unrealistically expect them to contend for the cup every year. Are these just the causual fans?? I don't know. Am I suggesting boycotting everything Flyers, no. I just think some fans have unrealistic expectations of this club year in and year out without consideration of the actual talent this club has. Am I making any sense?

Sure. Part of that (or all of it) is based on the fact the Flyers have usually been the team who goes all in, all the time. They have no problem trading away picks and prospects for older players who's best years are behind them. You get a small payoff at the present and generally lose big in the future. The odd time they do the opposite (Zhitnik for Coburn, and even the Carter and Richards trades to an extent) and the fans get to see what we've been doing wrong all along, in reverse.

And this doesn't even take into account the better draft choices you get when you're not "going for it' every single year.

Edited by flyercanuck
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it's not "disingenuous" at all it's reality. You are severely minimizing (ignoring actually) the effect "another goalie" has on a team. It seriously would take too long to type it all out but suffice to say a different presence in net can have far-reaching consequences to a team - to their "psyche" (if you will) their motivation and ultimately to their skating legs.

and Rad...I said you were "generally right" when you defend Bryzgalov. I know you're all for buying him out, I know he's not your hero or anything (!). But you do defend his play as irrelevant to the Flyers' woes this year. It's not irrelevant. Even in games they win Bryzgalov does not inspire confidence and that has to affect the way your team skates.

I do not at all say it is "irrelevant." I say that it is not the primary reason they are where they are. Because it isn't.

This team has scored more than two goals in nine of 24 games. Nine.

Your goalie is putting up a 2.68 GAA.

And you've still won 11 games.

WHO is the goalie that "should" be between the pipes *and was available at the start of this season*? WHAT goalie - anywhere - would be doing better behind a team that hasn't scored more than two goals in 62% of its games?

SIXTY-TWO PERCENT. (15 of 24)

I wouldn't have signed Bryz to that deal. I wouldn't have dealt Bob. I wouldn't have brought back Leighton and Boosh.

If there's any "defending" around here, it's defending the organization that made those moves and it's being done by people who are apparently of the belief that those same people that royally screwed up will magically "get it right" next time.

From where I sit, if it is unreasonable to expect Bryzgalov to be better than he has shown, it is even more unreasonable to think that the Flyers "braintrust" will fix it.

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I know this thread is about Bryz but I am surpirsed I have not seen Emery's name as a possible replacement. Guy is having a great year as a "backup". Anyway, the Flyers simply don't have the assets, contract space, etc. to rebuild the d and g positions in one year. I think we are stuck with Bryz for another year. It is what it is.

FYI I would have signed Dan Ellis before Boucher or Leighton. Water under the bridge now.

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@radoran

I generally agree with this sentiment, Rad. I, along with many others, were saying this actually since the beginning of the season (when we still had a lockout) that this team... the TEAM... had many problems. From top to bottom. Even if healthy (that is Meszaros, Reed, Grossman, Bourdon, Hartnell, etc.) did not miss a single game, this would still be a bad team. It's just the reality. People who try to claim otherwise are simply living in self-denial. This defense is just scary bad. The immobility and the lack of puck moving defenseman were expected to create some serious issues. The transition game was a huge question mark. I mean that was all expected (at least by myself) before the season even started. So the play of this team this season and where they are in standings should really come as no surprise.

However, the Bryz situation is sort of separable from that. I understand exactly what Canoli et al are saying - put in a different goalie and the outcome could be drastically different. There were – and still are – bad teams on paper. Yet their goalies are capable of doing two things that change the outlook: keep teams in games and actually *win* games by themselves. I said it before and I will say it again. What I find the most stunning in all this, is that even relative no-names like Robert Esche, Boucher, Chechmanek and Biron had some good, healthy portion of games both in the regular season and the playoffs, when they were able to do just that. I don’t need to give you examples. I am sure you remember, as much as I do, the playoff series that the previous Flyers teams won almost *exclusively* thanks to their goaltending. Probably with the exception of a very short sample when he was with the Ducks, Bryz was not able to accomplish that.

And mind you, all those goalies were getting paid HALF of what Bryz gets paid. This *has* to make people feel frustrated and angry. I mean are we expecting something we have no right of expecting?

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I do hear what canoli is saying and, quite frankly, I don't think I'm entirely in disagreement.

Yes, if major things were different then things would be different. No question.

If they had a different goalie, they might be more confident.

BUT, if the Flyers had a different defense, the goalie might be "more confident." As might the team.

If they had scored more goals, the goalie might be "more confident." As might the team.

Key words, however, is "might." And, given that I was told earlier this very season that a "different goalie" meant that the Flyers "might have" beaten a Devils team they lost 3-0 to, I just don't put too too much stock in that "might."

Bryz IS NOT worth the money. He IS NOT worth the contract at all. To keep evaluating him against that standard means he will always fall short and we will always be angry.

Hell, I'm angry. I was shouting at the teevee after the second Callahan goal. The second Nash goal was just the icing on the cake.

But I was ALSO shouting at the team that committed the egregious turnovers that exposed their goalie to a breakaway that, quite frankly, few goalies could even have a prayer of stopping.

And, again, we're stuck relying on the SAME PEOPLE who evaluated Bryz and gave him that contract to "get it right" next time.

I would be "more confident" that they could do that, if they were different people making the calls.

So, I'm holding the "decision makers" on the Flyers to the same standard that the goalie is held to.

Call me crazy.

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I'd rather buy out or try and trade Coburn, if possible. The guy is on the ice for almost every goal the Flyers give up, and takes dumb penalties. Leave Bryz alone, the defense in front of him is inconsitent at best, although getting slightly better (though with Grossman hurt maybe not so much), but Coburn is either turning the puck over or losing a man in front of the net for a big goal against. I hope getting back Meszaros will help, but he probably won't very much right away. Anyway, Bryz is the best goalie the Flyers have had since Hextall's 1st tour here. I didn't like the LONG term deal Homer gave Bryz, but he's not the biggest problem with the team. Not even close.

Edited by FD19372
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