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Patience; why management doesn't have that option.


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As it looks right now, this team is on the outside of the playoff bubble. It's going to take some consistently strong play in order to make a run. They've shown no indication that they are capable of consistency, so this probably is not the year.

That being said, this team is not deeply flawed. We have as talented a group of young forwards as there are in the NHL. 4 lines that can be rolled through, and they're just going to continue to improve. Grit, speed, some scoring ability--prototypical Flyers hockey. It would seem then that we shouldn't be panicking. 9 forwards are 26 or younger. If this group is just allowed to mature, the next few years would seem primed for good competitive hockey.

But that's not going to happen. (3-0, Bruins). Because of the lack of talent on the back end, from the defense corps to Bryz, and an utter absence of defensive depth in our prospects (Brandon Manning, anyone?), the defense is not going to get any better, and they are handicapping the potential for this team to succeed. The lack of potential demands quick drastic fixes, it would seem, as waiting on Bryzgalov to be anything more than he his is ridiculous, and the defense is not going to improve internally. The only way to fix this weakness is by trading our forwards. While Briere is the most obvious piece to be moved, and the least critical to the future of the team, he's not going to return a #1 d-man (though maybe Briere for Bernier?).

Mez, L. Schenn, and Grossmann are solid 2nd pairing options and have a place on this team. Coburn's been dreadful this year but is talented and could be traded for picks. Kimmo's resigning at 6 million was both a mistake and a necessity, reflecting the lack of other options barring a trade. He's getting paid to be #1, and he's not one, enough said. The defense players aren't bad, but we have a collection of 2nd and 3rd pairing d-men being asked to play roles that they cannot. Bryzgalov isn't a bad goalie, but he's not a goalie worth 5.5+ million per year for the next 7 years. As Jack Edwards of all people was saying on the NHL Network broadcast, the Flyers have lost their swagger, and that doesn't seem like something that can be regained with Bryz at the helm. And while we can't just go out and buy an elite franchise goalie (as Bryz demonstrated), someone like Bob would have or Bernier might be able to allow us to grow back into that lost confidence.

I know I'm repeating a lot of what's been said on this board. The point I'm trying to make is that while Homer has done a great job--a phenomenal job really-- in building a forward group, the lack of balance in failing to accrue defensive/goaltending talent through the draft, FAs and in trades is going to force them to negate the team's biggest strength, and biggest reason for hope--the offense, to try to ice an acceptable defensive squad.

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BBEsche:

There is wisdom...lots of wisdom, in what you say. The architect cannot see the world is changing. Homer see strength in centers and power forwards. Goal and D are not part of this franchise's worldview. It's pathetic and may not change in our lifetime unless Snider is out of the picture. There is another thread here on who are next GM should be. We need a change and it has to come from the outside.

Peace,

Howie

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This was my letter to Ed Snider on Face Book;

Santa is out of service for the summer. This means I must turn to Mr Snider. I am guessing your Honeymoon is over and I need you to turn your attention to our Flyers. This is turning out to be one of the worst if not the worst season ever. Thankfully it is a shortened one. There needs to be a shakeup a change if you will in the way this team is being managed. You can't fire everybody so that usually means the coach and or GM has to go. If you don't know which one then flip a coin. It can't get be worse than what we are seeing now. Oh yeah GO FLYERS

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The fan base cannot and will not tolerate rebuilding, as evidenced by the mass panic on this board. Fire all the things, and video game trade everyone!

The grass is not always greener, and the team had lots if potential. Gus just got back and is moving the puck with the best of them. Let us see what happens before crying that he isn't (insert your fav D ever).

If Pronger didn't have that freak career threatening injury, this club would be very different and you all know it. Literally the entire back end would be stabilized with guys playing the roles you want them to (number 2 - 6).

Bryz, well, **** him.

Point being, stop bitching about a rebuild when that's exactly what Homer is doing. Grossmann, L Schenn, and Gus are all recent improvements to the D, and Coburn is way better than this forum is giving him credit for as of late. Bryz was a gigantic mistake, but I'll give Homer credit for trying.

Now, lets see how this trade deadline, draft, and off season go. Homer has a plan and formula, just no solution we can agree on for net - yet.

O formula: can never have enough centers, hard workers, power forwards, speed, vet role players

D formula: porch clearing, shot blocking, skating, break out passers

A ton of the players are young and learning how to be a team with each other, and are hitting a development spike. Let them gel.

If Homer can't fix the net in three more seasons, this one included, he will be gone. Bryz buyout window is through next season, and I'm spotting him an extra season because legit starters don't grow on trees.

In short, patience. These are the growing pains.

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BBEsche:

There is wisdom...lots of wisdom, in what you say. The architect cannot see the world is changing. Homer see strength in centers and power forwards. Goal and D are not part of this franchise's worldview. It's pathetic and may not change in our lifetime unless Snider is out of the picture. There is another thread here on who are next GM should be. We need a change and it has to come from the outside.

Peace,

Howie

Howie:

Yes, David Poile from Nashville would be a breadth of fresh air to the Flyers, but I do not think that is possible unless the cap proves to be his undoing and with Trots. But would it not be a bit ironic if he ended up here.

What is really ironic though is that Holmgren has painted himself into a corner now working with most of the GM's in the league with his aggressive, predatory practices. GM101 is that it is give and take with your toys and you may need a GM some time as much as they may need you. It does not bode well if you behave like Attila The Hun. It is still a Boy's Club with rules both written and unwritten. This may be Holmgrens undoing more than anything else.

BOI

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@doom88

damn, doom, knowledge. you are exactly right right, this is a transition season, and what we are seeing makes a perfect sense given where the roster is. a lot of very young players are in very key spots right now, and that is not a recipie for instant bake cup rings. things will have to set up for a while and guys will have to find their spots. i can't help but see this season as an extended exhibition/preseason for next year, and as such, problems are expected. welcomed. expose the issues and figure them out for the future.

that doesn't mean there aren't things that need to be addessed by holmgren, but the fact that this roster isn't having success today doesn't tell us much about what it is going to do in 7 months.

bryagalov not being a consistently competitive NHL goaltender isn't helping, but whatever. that's what amnesty buyouts are for.

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Howie:

Yes, David Poile from Nashville would be a breadth of fresh air to the Flyers, but I do not think that is possible unless the cap proves to be his undoing and with Trots.

what has he done? a couple nice draft picks, but his team is also outside looking into the playoff picture, and they are doing it with one of the best goalies in the league. the guy can not -seemingly refuses to- add goalscoring. with the exception of a couple draft picks, i wouldn't be too jealous of what has been constructed in nashville.

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Howie:

Yes, David Poile from Nashville would be a breadth of fresh air to the Flyers, but I do not think that is possible unless the cap proves to be his undoing and with Trots. But would it not be a bit ironic if he ended up here.

What is really ironic though is that Holmgren has painted himself into a corner now working with most of the GM's in the league with his aggressive, predatory practices. GM101 is that it is give and take with your toys and you may need a GM some time as much as they may need you. It does not bode well if you behave like Attila The Hun. It is still a Boy's Club with rules both written and unwritten. This may be Holmgrens undoing more than anything else.

BOI

I suspect you are correct...we will see more RFA pursuit with offer sheets. Our only collective hope besides Snider departing is Comcast asserting direct authority if its investment's value deteriorates because of mismanagement or fan disgust.

We shall survive...with dignity, hopefully....

Howie

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what has he done? a couple nice draft picks, but his team is also outside looking into the playoff picture, and they are doing it with one of the best goalies in the league. the guy can not -seemingly refuses to- add goalscoring. with the exception of a couple draft picks, i wouldn't be too jealous of what has been constructed in nashville.

Aziz:

Points well taken...but they are consistent, and operate on a relative shoe-string. And when I watch them play, there is cohesive puck movement. Part of that may be coaching. But part may be a cohort of players that is drafted and grows together...something Homer may be realizing too late.

Good to hear from you...

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>>this team is not deeply flawed

Are you blind ? You've been either not watching or drinking the cool-aid from someone.

This is the most pathetic defense I've seen the flyers field in my entire life and my first flyers game was at the spectrum in the mid 70's. This team is hard to watch, the D doesn't hit, they give up the ice way to easy and the forwards think a pretty pass is better than a goaI. If Lavy has a "system", I'd sure as heck like to know what it is.

I like Lavy but it this team doesn't turn around fast ( at least have a better and less passive attitude ..) he's gone. It's not the loss of games that hurts the most.... it's the way they are lost. No fight... They give up one goal and think the game is over ( well in some cases, that's true ).

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what has he done? a couple nice draft picks, but his team is also outside looking into the playoff picture, and they are doing it with one of the best goalies in the league. the guy can not -seemingly refuses to- add goalscoring. with the exception of a couple draft picks, i wouldn't be too jealous of what has been constructed in nashville.

Aziz:

I think if you look at the body of Dave Poile's work, you would have to agree he is a Top GM in this league:

The only man to be a finalist for the General Manager of the Year Award for each of its first three years of the award’s existence (2010, 2011 and 2012.

Nashville Predators President of Hockey Operations/General Manager David Poile has been a top voice in the National Hockey League for 30 years (15 with Washington, 15 with Nashville), tied for the third longest tenure in NHL history, and second in consecutive active seasons as a GM to the New York Rangers’ Glen Sather (32 years).

He is the only general manager in NHL history to be at the helm of two different clubs for 1,000 games and 500 victories, attaining both marks in 2011-12. First the 1,000-game mark on Nov. 12, 2011, then the 500-win plateau on March 30, 2012.

Poile enters the 2012-13 campaign ranked second all-time in games (2,246) by a general manager – trailing only Sather (2,488) – and third in wins (1,097) behind Sather (1,195) and longtime Boston Bruins executive Harry Sinden (1,170). On March 21, 2010 at St. Louis, he picked up his 1,000th win as a general manager in a 3-2 Predators victory.

As the architect of a club built on speed, skill and steadfast work ethic, Poile’s philosophy of building through home-grown talent and effective drafting continued to pay dividends in 2011-12 as the Predators were the only Western Conference team to advance to the second round of the Stanley Cup Playoffs for the second consecutive season, this after becoming one of just five teams to make the postseason in seven of the last eight seasons and one of three to reach the 40-win mark in each of the last seven seasons.

In total, a franchise-record 22 draft picks suited up for Nashville during the 2011-12 campaign – three more than in 2010-11 – and 15 of the 24 players to dress for Nashville during the 2012 Playoffs were selected and developed by the franchise. The Predators are built around a pair of homegrown products in back-to-back Vezina Trophy finalist Pekka Rinne in goal – who Poile signed to the largest contract in franchise history in November 2011 – and back-to-back Norris Trophy runner-up Shea Weber. The two longest tenured Predators – David Legwand (1998) and Martin Erat (1999) paced the club’s offense, while Patric Hornqvist – the final pick of the 2005 Entry Draft (230th overall) – became the first Predator draftee to record three consecutive 20-goal seasons for the team in 2011-12. Craig Smith (2009) supplemented the forward corps with one of the top seasons by a rookie in franchise history, while talented young talent Nick Spaling (2007), Colin Wilson (2008) and Gabriel Bourque (2009) also showed the future is bright. Joining Weber on the blue line were fellow 2003 draftee Kevin Klein, in addition to promising rookies Ryan Ellis (2009), Roman Josi (2008) and Jonathon Blum (2007).

A year after supplementing the drafted talent with the likes of Mike Fisher and Sergei Kos****yn via trade, Poile was among the busiest GMs in the business in 2011-12, transforming the Predators from a team that was tied for the youngest team in the league in October, to a veteran club picked by many as a favorite to go all the way. Nashville’s 2012 playoff roster included eight players who were not with the club to start the season, including trade deadline acquisitions Andrei Kos****yn, Hal Gill and Paul Gaustad, which addressed the Predators needs of skill, size and playoff experience. One month after the deadline, Poile saw nearly four years of work come to fruition when Alexander Radulov – known as the best player outside the NHL – return to the Predators for the stretch drive and postseason.

Poile’s third straight GM of the Year nomination in 2011-12 came after the team finished with a 48-26-8 record (104 points), the third-best record in the Western Conference, fifth-best in the NHL, and good for home-ice advantage in the Stanley Cup Playoffs. The 2011-12 edition of the Predators were one of only four teams to finish in the Top 10 in both goals for (eighth) and goals against (eighth), and one of three teams to rank in the League’s Top 10 in both power-play percentage (first) and penalty kill percentage (10th). In 2010-11, Nashville earned the fifth seed in the Western Conference (99 points) and gave up the third-fewest goals in the League (190) despite missing nearly 350 man-games due to injury, and in 2009-10, Poile constructed a team that was one of 11 to hit the 100-point mark, despite having a payroll ranked 28th in the League, to earn a spot as a finalist for the inaugural General Manager of the Year Award.

Under Poile’s direction, the Predators have been one of the top teams in the NHL since evolving from an expansion team in the early 2000s, to a bona fide contender. Since the start of 2005-06, Nashville’s 320 wins ranks fifth-best in the league, while 181 home victories puts them third in the NHL.

The aggressive team-building plan implemented by Poile from the franchise’s inception has helped the organization earn the reputation as one of the most stable, well-built teams in the NHL. Crucial to the plan’s success is the ability to make the right selections and develop the young prospects. Poile has assembled a bright staff of personnel charged with those responsibilities, including assistant general manager Paul Fenton, chief amateur scout Jeff Kealty, and a coaching staff led by Barry Trotz.

Poile has long been a proponent of a strong developmental system as a means to develop blossoming young players into productive NHL players. The Predators’ primary developmental affiliate, the American Hockey League’s Milwaukee Admirals, captured the first Calder Cup Championship in franchise history in 2004 and revisited the Calder Cup Finals in 2006. They made their 10th consecutive trip to the Calder Cup Playoffs in 2012, making them one of two franchises (Connecticut/Hartford) to attain the feat. Milwaukee has won four division titles in the past nine seasons and became the first team in AHL history to post 40-or-more wins and 90-or-more points in eight consecutive seasons from 2002-03 to 2010-11, each season with a team predominately made up of Predators prospects.

Poile’s wisdom and experience is clearly valued throughout the hockey world. He was associate general manager for the 2010 United States Olympic Team, and helped select the team that would become one of the headline stories of the 2010 Games, capturing the hearts of a nation en route to a silver medal. He was a member of the U.S. National Team Advisory Group for the 2012 International Ice Hockey Federation World Championships after serving as associate GM for the U.S.’s entries into the 2009 and 2010 editions of the tournament, and as general manager at the 1998 and 1999 Worlds.

He was also selected as one of four NHL general managers to sit on the first NHL competition committee in 2005. The steering body formulates and recommends rule changes for approval by the NHL Board of Governors. In this role, he helped usher in the new era of NHL hockey – featuring on-ice innovations such as the regular-season shootout and the elimination of the red line – while at the same time drawing upon the wealth of experience accumulated through his many years in the game. The Competition Committee continues to be one of the most influential bodies in the game today.

In 2006-07, when Poile was recognized by The Sporting News as its Executive of the Year, an honor he had received twice previously (1982-83 and 1983-84) and which is determined through a vote of his peers, after the Predators finished the season with the second-most points in the Western Conference and tied for the third-most points in the entire National Hockey League. The Predators established franchise records in points (110), wins (51), road wins (23) and goals (272) during the campaign. Locally, Business TN magazine honored him as the magazine’s “CEO of the Year” for 2006 based on his consistent and successful track record as the team’s architect.

In 2001, Poile was a recipient of the Lester Patrick Award in recognition of contributions to hockey in the United States. Poile has devoted his professional career to hockey and the NHL, particularly in non-traditional markets. His late father, Bud Poile, also a recipient of the Lester Patrick Award (1989) and a member of the Hockey Hall of Fame (1990), served as general manager of two expansion franchises – first in Philadelphia (1967) and then in Vancouver (1970). David Poile began his professional career as an administrative assistant with the Atlanta Flames expansion franchise in 1972 and spent 10 years with the organization before being named general manager of the Washington Capitals in 1982. The 2012-13 campaign will mark his 40th in NHL.

For the 1982-83 season, Poile took the reins of a Washington team that had never made the Stanley Cup Playoffs. In his 15 years there, the Capitals advanced to the postseason 14 times. The 1997-98 Capitals, largely comprised of players Poile acquired, advanced to the Stanley Cup Finals. During his 15-year tenure, the Caps compiled a record of 596-454-124 (.559), ranking among the NHL's top-five teams during that span.

Poile was instrumental in the league's adoption of the instant replay rule in 1991. He was awarded Inside Hockey's Man of the Year award for his leadership on the issue.

A graduate of Northeastern University in Boston, Poile was hockey team captain, leading scorer and most valuable player for two years, earning a place in the University's Hall of Fame.

Poile also serves as an alternate governor for the team and in December 2007, he added President of Hockey Operations to his title for the first time in his career. For the past two seasons, Poile has donated to Operation Homefront (which provides emergency assistance and morale to our U.S. Troops), USA Hockey and the Peterson for Parkinson’s Foundation for every Predators victory.

He and his wife, Elizabeth, reside in Nashville. The Poiles have two children – daughter Lauren and son Brian – who was named the Predators Director of Hockey Operations in July 2010 – and two granddaughters – Ellie and Charlotte.

Best regards,

BOI

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JMO but Grossman is the only real D man on the ice. If Symonds and Varacek don't score it is a shutout. Is the C to heavy? Rinaldo is probably the most improved player on the team, I am all for sticking with the youth but we need some leadership from the veterans.

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what has he done? a couple nice draft picks, but his team is also outside looking into the playoff picture, and they are doing it with one of the best goalies in the league. the guy can not -seemingly refuses to- add goalscoring. with the exception of a couple draft picks, i wouldn't be too jealous of what has been constructed in nashville.

What????????? look at their farm club just bleeding goaltending talent....Pichard, Jeremey Smith and Hellberg (Rinne and Lindback too) plenty of forward and defensive depth and has the HUGE Weber contract and 15 million in cap space...great drafted it seems with one hand tied behind their back when you considered cap restraints...

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Points well taken...but they are consistent, and operate on a relative shoe-string. And when I watch them play, there is cohesive puck movement.

true, but the shoe string budget only means that we don't know whether his teams would be better or not with a larger budget. available money was an excuse for darcy regier for a long time. turns out he really is terrible.

not to say that poile is terrible, but the bottom line is his team in nashville has won two playoff rounds ever. maybe he'd be awesome with a bigger budget, but who knows. before nashville he was with washington, where he also never accomplished anything at all.

also, cohesive puck movement....to what end? i have to admit, i don't watch a lot of nashville hockey, but...they don't score goals, like, ever. their 6-0 win last night catapulted them out of 30th overall in goalscoring to 28th. moving the puck well coupled with a complete inability to put it in the net doesn't really get you much.

don't mean to jump down your throat, i just have never seen the reason for so much hats off to dave poile. he isn't given much money to spend, and accomplishes very little. seems pretty...blah to me. it's not like he manages to consistently build a top team every year despite his budget. he's no lou or anything.

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did you seriously just quote the write up on poile from the predators' website? a write up that includes the following?

As the architect of a club built on speed, skill and steadfast work ethic, Poile’s philosophy of building through home-grown talent and effective drafting continued to pay dividends in 2011-12 as the Predators were the only Western Conference team to advance to the second round of the Stanley Cup Playoffs for the second consecutive season, this after becoming one of just five teams to make the postseason in seven of the last eight seasons and one of three to reach the 40-win mark in each of the last seven seasons.

reaching the 2nd round is a big deal to them. making the postseason 7 of 8 seasons is earth shattering. isn't really the highest bar ever, you know?

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What????????? look at their farm club just bleeding goaltending talent....Pichard, Jeremey Smith and Hellberg (Rinne and Lindback too)

well, awesome, given on that only one goalie can be on the ice at one time. and don't look now, but lindback is embarrasing himself in tampa these days.

plenty of forward and defensive depth

depth? why do they have depth? they don't have starters, why is their depth impressive? they can put an endless supply of crappy forwards on the ice? woo-hoo?

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did you seriously just quote the write up on poile from the predators' website? a write up that includes the following?

reaching the 2nd round is a big deal to them. making the postseason 7 of 8 seasons is earth shattering. isn't really the highest bar ever, you know?

Aziz:

Yes, that is correct. You obviously missed it based upon your comments. I wanted to make sure that you had the opportity to look it over, perhaps study it a bit. Perhaps even reflect a bit upon it overnight tonight.

Have a good evening,

BOI

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>>this team is not deeply flawed

Are you blind ? You've been either not watching or drinking the cool-aid from someone.

This is the most pathetic defense I've seen the flyers field in my entire life and my first flyers game was at the spectrum in the mid 70's. This team is hard to watch, the D doesn't hit, they give up the ice way to easy and the forwards think a pretty pass is better than a goaI. If Lavy has a "system", I'd sure as heck like to know what it is.

I like Lavy but it this team doesn't turn around fast ( at least have a better and less passive attitude ..) he's gone. It's not the loss of games that hurts the most.... it's the way they are lost. No fight... They give up one goal and think the game is over ( well in some cases, that's true ).

Grossmann and L Schenn are top 25 in hits and blocked shots amongst all skaters. Coburn is also top 25 in blocked shots. Rinaldo and B Schenn are also top 25 in hits as a fun aside.

Stats checked from NHL.com

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Grossmann and L Schenn are top 25 in hits and blocked shots amongst all skaters. Coburn is also top 25 in blocked shots. Rinaldo and B Schenn are also top 25 in hits as a fun aside.

Stats checked from NHL.com

It's easy to be tops blocking shots when your defense can't skate the puck out or get quality breakout passes to connect leaving your own zone. I've seen a lot of turnovers trying to get the puck out for you guys and that leads to loads of shots coming back your way, as the stats seem to support.

Honestly though I've said it before and I'll say it again... I agree you guys have no reason to panic. I've watched Penguins teams suffer through youth and growing pains to become solid cores challenging for and then winning the Cup. I still believe you are one solid #1 defenseman away from a serious contender. You have great promise up front and some solid middle pairing guys in back.. just need that one piece to the puzzle. THEN see where Bryz is and buy him out if there is a better option.

On a side note... I can't believe I've got more faith in your team than the majority of your fans here! LOL Something is wrong!

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>>

Grossmann and L Schenn are top 25 in hits and blocked shots amongst all skaters.

>>

The only lights in an otherwise very dim defense

>> Coburn is also top 25 in blocked shots.

That's by accident most of the time... when it's not it's because he's been beat and it's desperation time. I'd bet he makes 2 doumb plays out there for every thing he even tries to do well.

>> Rinaldo and B Schenn are also top 25 in hits as a fun aside

If you read my post I think I said DEFENSE... it's pretty bad when our O is a lot harder on the puck than our D. Puck possession and that ability to skate the puck out of our zone does not exist on this team. If we could put Rinaldo's attitude into the heads of our D, life would be good.

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>>

Grossmann and L Schenn are top 25 in hits and blocked shots amongst all skaters.

>>

The only lights in an otherwise very dim defense

>> Coburn is also top 25 in blocked shots.

That's by accident most of the time... when it's not it's because he's been beat and it's desperation time. I'd bet he makes 2 doumb plays out there for every thing he even tries to do well.

>> Rinaldo and B Schenn are also top 25 in hits as a fun aside

If you read my post I think I said DEFENSE... it's pretty bad when our O is a lot harder on the puck than our D. Puck possession and that ability to skate the puck out of our zone does not exist on this team. If we could put Rinaldo's attitude into the heads of our D, life would be good.

Pretty sure I said as a fun aside, but whatever. Enjoy your evening.

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If you read my post I think I said DEFENSE... it's pretty bad when our O is a lot harder on the puck than our D. Puck possession and that ability to skate the puck out of our zone does not exist on this team. If we could put Rinaldo's attitude into the heads of our D, life would be good.

Matt Carle says hello.

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You obviously missed it based upon your comments.

no, i read it, actually. it's a bunch of predators' PR, talking about "Under Poile’s direction, the Predators have been one of the top teams in the NHL since evolving from an expansion team in the early 2000s, to a bona fide contender," and "The aggressive team-building plan implemented by Poile from the franchise’s inception has helped the organization earn the reputation as one of the most stable, well-built teams in the NHL." which is all kind of amazingly silly. i mean, who calls the predators one of the top teams in the NHL? they are so not a bona fide contender. "most...well-built teams in the NHL"? they are 5 skaters away from having a real set of top-6 forwards. outside of rinne and weber, they are terrible. sure, no money to work with, but that doesn't change the fact that that write up is so much nonsense. colin wilson, martin erat, and david legwand are their big guns. one of the most well built teams in the NHL? sheesh.

imo, he gets so much adolation because his teams are consistently better than the islanders and columbus while not spending much more. he is a financial underdog, and as such no one requires actual success to proclaim him the big winner. he is the fastest runner out of people who can't run fast. i dunno. don't see anything there to be impressed by.

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