Patience; why management doesn't have that option.

[Adamflyers]

This team has to be patient with their core, young players. I know there is a contingent on this board that just want to completely start over and get rid of everyone, which IMO would be ridiculous. Even though the team is not playing well right now, they have a lot of good pieces in place. The best pieces are obviously up on the forwards. The current group of defensemen is obviously not getting it done.

They should be making any move possible at the deadline to shed excess salary to contending teams who are desperate for what they consider that last piece of the puzzle to put them over the top. I know some think that Briere and Kimmo are un-tradable, but it is not unheard of for GM's to overpay (Money and players) at the deadline for instant gratification. If they think that Briere is what will put them over the top, and his past playoff performances should make him that kind of player, they might be able to get something of value for him. Kimmo is old, but again, GMs make interesting decisions when they feel they need just one piece to get there (We should know!). Not sure who is available out there, but hopefully they can make some deadline deals for some defensive help for next year.

This team can't panic and start trading away the young kids. Is Coots having a bad year, absolutely. Does that mean he is a bust who won't pan out? No one can say, but it is not uncommon for a good rookie year to be followed up by a bad 2nd year. They would be dumb to give up on their young kids unless the deal was too good to pass up. This team stays in neutral all the time because they give up on their young players.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Adamflyers

[OccamsRazor]

well, awesome, given on that only one goalie can be on the ice at one time. and don't look now, but lindback is embarrasing himself in tampa these days.

depth? why do they have depth? they don't have starters, why is their depth impressive? they can put an endless supply of crappy forwards on the ice? woo-hoo?

Really that is all you got????

Pretty weak and even you know its key to have a back up...you've been away and it seems you forgotten how the game is played and teams are built....i'm done here.

Edited March 10, 2013 by OccamsRazor

[pilldoc]

Actually NSH might be a great trade target for Homer to send Briere. High cap hit with low actual money, and talent at C.

Do you really think NSH would want to trade with us again considering the way Homer / Snider went after Weber last summer.?

[doom88]

Do you really think NSH would want to trade with us again considering the way Homer / Snider went after Weber last summer.?

Yes, it's a business, and Briere is exactly what they need PR-wise, at forward, and financially. NSH knows it wasn't personal, and there is positive history with Forsberg, Hartnell, Timonen, etc.

[pilldoc]

@doom88

fair enough. I just thought they would want to screw us. ok so who are NSH could we get for Danny Boy?

[aziz]

Really that is all you got????

What else do you want? They have a bunch of unproven goalies in their system, each of them jammed up behind Rinne.... while the rest of the team consists almost exclusively of third line/third pair players. Weber and Erat being the exceptions. And Erat is only kind of an exception. Is that a good way to build a tr team? Using first or second round picks on goalies 5 times in the last 12 years (none of whom turned out to be NHL caliber) while the rest of lineup withers away? And where has their goaltending depth gotten them? Into the second round twice, ever?

[aziz]

Do you really think NSH would want to trade with us again considering the way Homer / Snider went after Weber last summer.?

I don't think GMs take things nearly as personally as you make them out to. If the flyers have something Nashville wants, and Nashville has a player they are willing to move to get it, they aren't going to refuse based on hurt feelings.

[doom88]

@doom88

fair enough. I just thought they would want to screw us. ok so who are NSH could we get for Danny Boy?

Shrug, that's up to the scouts to advise Homer. I'd hope one of those D or G prospects, especially G. I don't think the D is as bad as most of this forum thinks, just coaching and cohesion issues.

[Mad Dog]

That being said, this team is not deeply flawed. We have as talented a group of young forwards as there are in the NHL.

With all due respect, what possible basis are you using for making this statement? This team *is* deeply flawed. What’s even more frustrating is that the team’s flawlessness - every single one of these flaws - were evident before the season even started, which is why I even secretly hoped that there would be no season this year. I know it would be bad for the sport and its fans, but the season cancellation was actually the best thing that could’ve happened for the Flyers.

What are the flaws? Let's see...

1. They don’t have an NHL-caliber goaltender; not an adequate one anyway. And the most depressing part of this is that they don’t have anybody in the system who can be at least looked at down the road. Not that it would have made a difference for the immediate resolution of the problem, but it would at least provide some moral consolation to know that at the very least there is a promising kid who one day will be ready to step in and just take it away in net. The situation in net *alone* makes the state of affairs in the flyersland beyond gruesome.

2. After having failed to address the leadership/captainship issue for years, that issue is still glaring. I am sorry to say this, but as much as I respect Claude Giroux, he does not instill faith in me that he was the right choice (not that the Flyers had many better choices). He may at some point become better; after all he is still very young. But that’s an unknown.

2b. Almost an extension of leadership… there is no charismatic, “attitude” type player on this roster who will make sacrifices and provide destruction to the opposition. In a different thread I made a reference to Esa Tikkanen (really loved that guy when he played even when he was playing for the hated Rangers). You need that type of player on your team who distracts and confuses opponents, who brings personality, mixed with an ability to score. I am willing to bet you take Tikkanen away from the Oilers, and they would be hard pressed to win those 4 cups they did win.

3. You mentioned 4 lines that can be rolled. On paper, maybe. Regrettably, this did not even remotely translate to the real life. Briere right now looks to me like he just checked out. Hartnell has been ineffective since he came back from the injury. Giroux is struggling (at this point I *have* to assume he is playing hurt). Talbot is non-existent. Fedotenko tries, but he is a third line player who is also aging. This team’s offensive depth has been misrepresented. If it wasn’t for Voracek, who is having the best season in his career, and Simmonds, this team would most certainly guarantee themselves a first overall pick in this year’s draft. So in short... yeah, we can roll 4 lines. Problem is, not many of those players are scoring.

4. I am excited about having Couturier and Schenn on the team. I mean I really am. But so far we hardly have anything to boast about. Schenn is not looking to me like a player who has taken that proverbial next step. I don’t think he is coasting. At least from where I seat, he is trying. He may just not have as much of a potential as many people though he did. Couturier is a different story. He seems lost. It’s not that uncommon to have sophomore troubles, but that kid is just totally lost. It’s almost like we are watching a literally different player from what we have seen in the last year’s playoffs.

5. Defense. This is really the heart of the problem – along with goaltending horror. What happened to Pronger was a really bad and totally unpredictable thing. It hurt the team in many areas. But this management was totally unprepared to react. They had the rest of the last season *and* the entire summer to figure out the plan how to do it. As a result, they lost Carle and signed two unimaginable stiffs like Gervais and Foster. Timonen is a shadow of his old self, which, according to our GM is not true since he just awarded him with a big contract. The defense lacks mobility and for the defense-first personnel, they are not even so good at that.

The most problematic part in all this is that the Flyers put themselves in the position that without going through a major overhaul, they can do absolutely nothing about fixing all these issues. They have no pieces to trade and they have way too much salaries committed to players who they would have hard time moving because of their contracts.

But other than that, sure… this team is not “deeply flawed”.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Mad Dog

[pilldoc]

@Mad Dog

if I made add to your well thought out post:

6. The philosophy of mismanaging contracts an not understanding the cap. High end contracts give to the likes of Bryz / Briere / Timonen's extension / and others have hampered this team to manuever strategically through the minefield known as the cap. The idea of handing out NMC like candy is an absurded notion and will hamper us in try to acquire the necessary pieces to rebuild. (I give you Exhibit A, Briere's contract as evidence).

7. The trading of away young players and draft picks. I am still very much pissed ( as I have mentioned several times before) that P. Sharp was traded away for and ECHL type quality player. I am dearthly afraid Bob will come back to haunt us for several to come. There was your answer for goal and Homer traded him away "so as not to be a distraction to Bryz".

8. The failure of developing a defenseman in our on farm system. Matter of fact the cubbard is quite empty down on the farm. Now I will the fact that some of that youth is now with the Flyers.

I agree MD that there are some deep fundamental and philosophy flaws for this team that must change in order for this team to move forward.

Excellant Post!

Edited March 10, 2013 by pilldoc

[InHexyWeTrust]

@Mad Dog I was going to agree with at least some of the things you're saying, though it's pretty difficult to speak with any authority about the internal leadership of this team. They're saying all the right things in the interviews, but they seem to be playing without much confidence right now and that's the heart of the problem there. One would think that between G, Hartnell, Kimmo, Danny, Gagne, there's some solid veteran leadership. But who can say.

Your argument about the defense is absolutely right. This of course was the basis of my critique, that an otherwise strong nucleus of good young talent on the front end (I'll get back to this) might be sacrificed to recover the lack of depth and talent on the backend. That being said, what's needed on this team is a franchise goalie and a puck-moving, offensively capable, minute-eating #1 d-man (oh Shea Weber, how we missed you). They need a #1, the rest of the defense is solid, as you said, defense-first personnel. They just lack a significant top-pairing presence. That said, this team is missing two, maybe three pieces--two extremely large, critical, difficult to acquire pieces, but it's definitely not a "deeply flawed" team, if those players can be acquired.

1. They don’t have an NHL-caliber goaltender; not an adequate one anyway. And the most depressing part of this is that they don’t have anybody in the system who can be at least looked at down the road. Not that it would have made a difference for the immediate resolution of the problem, but it would at least provide some moral consolation to know that at the very least there is a promising kid who one day will be ready to step in and just take it away in net. The situation in net *alone* makes the state of affairs in the flyersland beyond gruesome.

This is one of the points I was going to agree with as I agree that goaltending is a huge issue, but couldn't because you're too harsh on Bryz. If you had said we lack a Stanley Cup caliber goalie, a franchise goalie, a long-term solution in net, (even a short-term solution) I would have said, yes of course absolutely. But Ilya Bryzgalov is most certainly a "NHL-caliber goalie." He's a middle of the pack, average starter in the NHL. Maybe even toward the bottom of the league, but absolutely a starter. They over-paid for a system-goalie. Simple as that. He'll be amnestied at the end of the year, primarily because of the contract. He'd be an easier pill to swallow if the cap was 2 million lower. And they don't have anyone in the system unless Stolarz becomes an actual prospect over the next couple years.

2b. Almost an extension of leadership… there is no charismatic, “attitude” type player on this way who will make sacrifices and provide destruction to the opposition. In a different thread I made a reference to Esa Tikkanen. You need that player on your team who distracts and confuses opponents, who brings personality, mixed with an ability to score.

Scott Hartnell.

This team’s offensive depth has been misrepresented. If it wasn’t for Voracek, who is having the best season in his career, and Simmonds, this team would most certainly guarantee themselves a first overall pick in this year’s draft.

This is a silly argument. If it wasn't for Voracek, if it wasn't for Simmonds...but they're doing what they were brought here to do, what we hoped when we traded Carter and Richards. They're both just 23, and to look at Voracek move on the ice, stats-aside, the kid looks like a superstar in the making. And they're locked up to long term contracts. It was a "career year" for Talbot last season. For Voracek, it's a breakout year.

Fedotenko, I think is useless. Talbot is the heart&soul defensive 3rd/4th line player from Pittsburgh, not the 19 goal scorer. Add in Read, Rinaldo, Schenn & Couts (who are 21 and 20! Patience!!!). Harry Z, Wellwood, McGinn, Laughton, Cousins, there's not a player there that doesn't have value.

They have no pieces to trade and they have way too much salaries committed to players who they would have hard time moving because of their contracts.

Which is to say: While not a lot of moves need to be made (2 or 3) clearly there are plenty of pieces to trade, and some may be from our young offense, unfortunately. But Briere is not integral to the team's future, and can return a good price. Kimmo will be more difficult to move, because of the contract; teams may for one reason or another want Rusty.

I think they've screwed up big-time in not building defense in their system. Aside from Sbisa, who they didn't develop, they haven't used a first round pick on a dman/goalie since Pitkanen. But Homer's done a good job of getting a solid, if not unspectacular group of defensive-minded defensemen through trades. They've ****ed up the goalie position. But yeah, this team will be fine, unless they panic and react like you are.

[Mad Dog]

Scott Hartnell.

OK, that's reasonably fair. He comes close. He would be capable of playing that role, but the problem I have with him is he is more of a drama player than an attitude player. And the line is actually not that thin between these two... There are many times when Hartnell simply acts like a total idiot and puts himself in a penalty box. He has hard time being smart about destracting opposition.

This is a silly argument. If it wasn't for Voracek, if it wasn't for Simmonds...but they're doing what they were brought here to do, what we hoped when we traded Carter and Richards. They're both just 23, and to look at Voracek move on the ice, stats-aside, the kid looks like a superstar in the making. And they're locked up to long term contracts. It was a "career year" for Talbot last season. For Voracek, it's a breakout year.

I think you misunderstood my point I tried to make. I was not using Voracek and Simmonds to give them more credit than what the Flyers were expecting out of them when they made the trade. I was rather responding to your argument about rolling 4 lines. The point is we have 2 players who the team can consistently rely upon to score points: Voracek and Simmonds. Everybody else has been sporadic, for various reasons.

[InHexyWeTrust]

I think you misunderstood my point I tried to make. I was not using Voracek and Simmonds to give them more credit than what the Flyers were expecting out of them when they made the trade. I was rather responding to your argument about rolling 4 lines. The point is we have 2 players who the team can consistently rely upon to score points: Voracek and Simmonds. Everybody else has been sporadic, for various reasons.

Agree With This

Of course. I think the problem then is motivation/passion/urgency/confidence rather than talent. We both agree that on paper there are 4 talented lines. Inconsistency has dogged this team all year (that and injuries). But just because they aren't performing at the expected level right now doesn't mean their "paper value" is inaccurate. Aside from Simmonds and Voracek, the forward group is full of

Players that have demonstrated and proved their ability in past seasons, albeit not enough this season: Giroux, Hartnell, Briere, (Gagne);

3rd and 4th line players that come every night and do their job: Rinaldo, Talbot, Harry Z

and young guys who have shown flashes of brilliance and we would do best to withhold judgment for a while: B. Schenn, Couturier, Read

So sporadic, certainly. But not systemically flawed. If they can regain their confidence/swagger/ability to pass the puck tape to tape they are an extremely promising group.