No easy answers

[off_the_post]

Well, 5-1 in the 3rd for NJ and the Flyers have nothing. What can you do? A lot has been said about trading Briere and Kimmo and that is fine enough - don't know if it will happen. Most are calling for Bryz to go but some, self included, see there is no viable alternative. A lot want to run Cobourn out of town but I disagree - look at what happened when the Flyers did that to Carle.

Honestly the Pronger trade/injury combined with letting Carle go has set this team back a couple of years. Injuries happen - tough to swallow but it is part of the game.

I wouldn't mind the Flyers making a commitment to a semi-rebuild. I don't think the flyers need to clean everything out. But I think the Flyers will need to get worse to get better and that is a bitter pill. Yes I still think there is room to get worse. But you know what? It is not the end of the world. If it means I get to see the Flyers lift the cup in my lifetime then I am ok with it.

[pensuck]

Good points. Prongs going down really hurt us. We also traded our top players in carter and Richie. But bringing back simmonds, jakub, schenn and drafting cooter sets us up for the future. We are very young and we're not used to rebuilding but thats what we're doing. Anyway thats the positive spin I'm trying to put on this season.

[JackStraw]

@off_the_post - pretty much agree. At the start of last season the team had three skilled defensemen, Pronger, Carle, and Timo. Now there down to one. They are just terrible deep in their own zone. One guy, even if it is Seth Jones is not going to fix it. I'm convinced Lavi must go. I think he's a good coach but it's just not working. Hope to draft a defenseman with a top 10 pick. Get another one through trade or free agency. Maybe Gus can be that guy. Might as well give him the playing time now since there's not much to lose at this point.

[jammer2]

@off_the_post The age old question, will the Flyers management and thier fans be patient enough to suck for a few years, stick to a solid plan and grow the proper way??/ I have my doubts.

[BearOnIce]

Well, 5-1 in the 3rd for NJ and the Flyers have nothing. What can you do? A lot has been said about trading Briere and Kimmo and that is fine enough - don't know if it will happen. Most are calling for Bryz to go but some, self included, see there is no viable alternative. A lot want to run Cobourn out of town but I disagree - look at what happened when the Flyers did that to Carle.

Honestly the Pronger trade/injury combined with letting Carle go has set this team back a couple of years. Injuries happen - tough to swallow but it is part of the game.

I wouldn't mind the Flyers making a commitment to a semi-rebuild. I don't think the flyers need to clean everything out. But I think the Flyers will need to get worse to get better and that is a bitter pill. Yes I still think there is room to get worse. But you know what? It is not the end of the world. If it means I get to see the Flyers lift the cup in my lifetime then I am ok with it.

"Honestly the Pronger trade/injury combined with letting Carle go has set this team back a couple of years. Injuries happen - tough to swallow but it is part of the game." - That is really it, as simple as it is to say it is the truth. The fundamentals of hockey and success rest with D and it is unfortunately the downfall of this team. I expect a pretty significant re-tool there starting very quickly in the next month or so once playoff potential is finally eliminated.

[BearOnIce]

@off_the_post The age old question, will the Flyers management and thier fans be patient enough to suck for a few years, stick to a solid plan and grow the proper way??/ I have my doubts.

That is the fundamental question. With an aging owner like Snider that insists all results must be immediate, and places unrealistic expectations on the GM, I have my doubts. Growing internally gets you the right players and team. But it takes time. Why we get to the playoffs most years, and that sells tickets, free agancy and trading is stop gap. That is the lesson that must be learned. I am not sure it ever will with this organization.

[AndyS]

Well, 5-1 in the 3rd for NJ and the Flyers have nothing. What can you do? A lot has been said about trading Briere and Kimmo and that is fine enough - don't know if it will happen. Most are calling for Bryz to go but some, self included, see there is no viable alternative. A lot want to run Cobourn out of town but I disagree - look at what happened when the Flyers did that to Carle.

Honestly the Pronger trade/injury combined with letting Carle go has set this team back a couple of years. Injuries happen - tough to swallow but it is part of the game.

I wouldn't mind the Flyers making a commitment to a semi-rebuild. I don't think the flyers need to clean everything out. But I think the Flyers will need to get worse to get better and that is a bitter pill. Yes I still think there is room to get worse. But you know what? It is not the end of the world. If it means I get to see the Flyers lift the cup in my lifetime then I am ok with it.

If I had known that they were going to give Timmo $6 next season, I would have just told them to overpay for Carle instead.

[Howie58]

I thought there was something truly strange about the reality of a 39 year old goalie who earns just over a mil looking terrific versus Mr. Universe. Then I looked up Hedberg's history....we drafted the guy....number 218 in 1994...but we didn't bring him over given inexperience. . . . Yes, another youngster we effectively trashed.

Peace,

Howie

[FD19372]

There are no easy answers. Not with this club. You have an owner who wants to win, but also wants to run a Club Med and old boy network. The one thing I would NOT do is fire the coach. I would definitelyconsider, however, bringing in a GM who has a bit of a different philosophy. You can't continually destroy your farm system for fringe or decent players. You also have to STOP with the NTCs. If that was solely Holmgren's idea, then maybe he isn't the right guy for the job, because they are killing the team. I think that he overpaid for guys like Briere (speaking of NTC's) Timonen, and probably Bryz, (but I can understand why he did that with the EMBARRASSING goaltending they had had). I think that the easiest answer is for Ed Snider to stop with the rotating door of old Flyers, who, while they were good players and are people you are familiar with, bring in people with a little better hockey sense for evaluating talent. That is, if your goal is to win (if not win the Cup) every year, as I think Ed Snider's goal truly is. The problem is he wants to make sure every one of the good players he's had over the years has a job within the organization, be a "Flyer for life". Maybe not making the playoffs is the answer as a "wake-up call" for Mr, Snider to cut back on the loyalty a little, especially with Homer. Its not so much with me the fact that Homer isn't trying, it's just that after the whole 'Weber chase' in the offseason, he had no Plan B and that is NOT acceptable. They still need a legit #1 dman pairing and NONE of those guys are capable of being legitimately one of those guys,(maybe Schenn but that's it) . 38 years and counting without a Cup, da*nit. Something's got a change, a mindset, ...something. So much for my diatribe/analysis, lol.

[Bertmega]

[murraycraven]

Agree w/ FD here... Homer put all of his nickels in one pocket w/ the Weber, Suter and Parise chase figuring he would land one (if not 2) of them. There was no Plan B - none! Instead of getting world class players we ended up with retreads that are barely NHL calibar...

As for Lavy... I am not sure what to do... The players are not good and I put all of that on Homer... Lavy has won and cup and we got to the FInals w/ a terrible Goalie... I would give him this year to see if he can turn it around but Homer needs to get some Players in here - quick.

[flyercanuck]

Agree w/ FD here... Homer put all of his nickels in one pocket w/ the Weber, Suter and Parise chase figuring he would land one (if not 2) of them. There was no Plan B - none! Instead of getting world class players we ended up with retreads that are barely NHL calibar...

As for Lavy... I am not sure what to do... The players are not good and I put all of that on Homer... Lavy has won and cup and we got to the FInals w/ a terrible Goalie... I would give him this year to see if he can turn it around but Homer needs to get some Players in here - quick.

For the love of God, NO, he doesn't. Homer needs to do what winning GMs do...draft his own damn defencemen and goalies. Stop this neverending carousel of retreads. Stop bringing in guys for a couple of years and watching the players you traded for them have 10-15 year careers on OTHER teams. If the team sucks, let it suck and draft bluechip players instead of constantly putting bandaids on and picking 20 something. Yes he's pulled a Giroux out of that. Imagine what he could have got without trading all those 1sts and trying to compete every year. Memories of Briere and Pronger when they could play are nice. I'd rather have a Stamkos or a Pietrangelo and a Tavares/Oliver Ekman Larson on my team now though.

[fan4ever]

I'd like to add Bob to that list. I still believe he'll develop into a great goalie, unfortunately for another team

[off_the_post]

@off_the_post - pretty much agree. At the start of last season the team had three skilled defensemen, Pronger, Carle, and Timo. Now there down to one. They are just terrible deep in their own zone. One guy, even if it is Seth Jones is not going to fix it. I'm convinced Lavi must go. I think he's a good coach but it's just not working. Hope to draft a defenseman with a top 10 pick. Get another one through trade or free agency. Maybe Gus can be that guy. Might as well give him the playing time now since there's not much to lose at this point.

Gus being that guy would be huge. Being a GM is managing a game of assets. We traded assets to get Pronger and Carle and got no return. That is a capital loss that is to be carried forword. Hopefully Gus can be our capital gain. It certainly would help.

[off_the_post]

If I had known that they were going to give Timmo $6 next season, I would have just told them to overpay for Carle instead.

AMEN! Carle logged the most minutes of anybody last year. But they give Kimmo, as good as a defenseman he was, more money on a 1 year deal.

[brelic]

@off_the_post The age old question, will the Flyers management and thier fans be patient enough to suck for a few years, stick to a solid plan and grow the proper way??/ I have my doubts.

This is what gets me. We have a young, inexperienced team, and this is a great learning and growing opportunity for them. To have your team suck in a shortened season is probably the best time to do it.

You would think that means letting these young guys cut their teeth out there. But instead, our GM sends down a young defenseman in Gus for inconsistent play, and replaces him with Gervais and Foster?

That's just bad asset management. This is a perfect time for Gus to gain experience, but our GM would rather grasp at straws to try and turn this sinking ship around. You know, it's not even a sinking ship. It's more like a rubber dinghy trying to keep up with cruise liners.

[jammer2]

@brelic Could not agree more Bre, this *is* the perfect time to break in a kid like Gus, or for that matter, see what Manning can do at the NHL level. In this short throw away season, the timing is perfect. If not now, when is the time to break in Gus, and let him learn on the fly. If you don't bite the bullet at some point, you are married to these sub-par vets forever.

[BearOnIce]

I thought there was something truly strange about the reality of a 39 year old goalie who earns just over a mil looking terrific versus Mr. Universe. Then I looked up Hedberg's history....we drafted the guy....number 218 in 1994...but we didn't bring him over given inexperience. . . . Yes, another youngster we effectively trashed.

Peace,

Howie

Howie:

You are definately the true investigative journalist of this group Nice work.

Now, who goes and who stays, and who is blamed for this mess and underachievement, and who crawls under their desk upstairs at Wells Fargo Center sucking their thumb and taking no blame for any of this CF this year?

This, I want to see.

BOI

[BearOnIce]

@off_the_post The age old question, will the Flyers management and thier fans be patient enough to suck for a few years, stick to a solid plan and grow the proper way??/ I have my doubts.

Jammer:

It's not the fans as an issue, it is that old man Snider who sits upstairs at WFC sticking his sterrips in the side of Holmgren as he rides him unrelentingly expecting miracles and a Cup win every year. He is delusional. The fans would ride it out. Ed does not have the time though as he is looking at a define potting in the ground in the not so distant future up there on Lemon Tree Hill with the rest of the line of Sniders..

BOI

[BearOnIce]

This is what gets me. We have a young, inexperienced team, and this is a great learning and growing opportunity for them. To have your team suck in a shortened season is probably the best time to do it.

You would think that means letting these young guys cut their teeth out there. But instead, our GM sends down a young defenseman in Gus for inconsistent play, and replaces him with Gervais and Foster?

That's just bad asset management. This is a perfect time for Gus to gain experience, but our GM would rather grasp at straws to try and turn this sinking ship around. You know, it's not even a sinking ship. It's more like a rubber dinghy trying to keep up with cruise liners.

That is because Holmgren's marching orders are to win. Snider just does not get it.

[AndyS]

That is because Holmgren's marching orders are to win. Snider just does not get it.

Although, to be fair, I'd much rather have an owner that is willing to do whatever he can to try to win a Cup. A LOT of other owners seem to care about nothing but making money.

[pilldoc]

There are no easy answers. Not with this club. You have an owner who wants to win, but also wants to run a Club Med and old boy network. The one thing I would NOT do is fire the coach. I would definitelyconsider, however, bringing in a GM who has a bit of a different philosophy. You can't continually destroy your farm system for fringe or decent players. You also have to STOP with the NTCs. If that was solely Holmgren's idea, then maybe he isn't the right guy for the job, because they are killing the team. I think that he overpaid for guys like Briere (speaking of NTC's) Timonen, and probably Bryz, (but I can understand why he did that with the EMBARRASSING goaltending they had had). I think that the easiest answer is for Ed Snider to stop with the rotating door of old Flyers, who, while they were good players and are people you are familiar with, bring in people with a little better hockey sense for evaluating talent. That is, if your goal is to win (if not win the Cup) every year, as I think Ed Snider's goal truly is. The problem is he wants to make sure every one of the good players he's had over the years has a job within the organization, be a "Flyer for life". Maybe not making the playoffs is the answer as a "wake-up call" for Mr, Snider to cut back on the loyalty a little, especially with Homer. Its not so much with me the fact that Homer isn't trying, it's just that after the whole 'Weber chase' in the offseason, he had no Plan B and that is NOT acceptable. They still need a legit #1 dman pairing and NONE of those guys are capable of being legitimately one of those guys,(maybe Schenn but that's it) . 38 years and counting without a Cup, da*nit. Something's got a change, a mindset, ...something. So much for my diatribe/analysis, lol.

e

excellant post. I have made very similiar comments in other posts. especially having no Plan B when Weber / Suter fell through....

[Bertmega]

@AndyS

Agreed but when the Flyers are basically maxed against the cap with a team of young forwards, an inconsistent goalie and a crap D, you have to start to question his ability to manage money.

I think there is a lot of dead weight that will see it's way out the door when the old man expires.

[BearOnIce]

Although, to be fair, I'd much rather have an owner that is willing to do whatever he can to try to win a Cup. A LOT of other owners seem to care about nothing but making money.

Andy:

I agree about the winning part but I just think with all respect that Snider needs to step back and be willing to let Holmgren build and manage this organization. Snider did not do this with Clarke. He is not doing it with Holmgren now. If it takes 3-5 years to draft, develop, and grow, thre just has to be patience.

BOI

[Podein25]

I disagree with the premise of this thread.

"42" is a perfectly acceptable, and easy, answer to almost all things.