B21 Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 I think Shero is a shrewd guy, he's a good GM; the thread is VS Holland, whom i know little about except his team is always the team you have to beat to win the west, (at least until recently) there is system Detroit has for evaluating talent that others should copy, they consistently find excellent players while drafting late, using the euro elite leagues, khl scouting, they always have guys in the pipeline nearly ready to step in, doesn't hurt to get lucky with a lidstrom every 15 years or so either. I think they're both very good, i'd also add Dean Lombardi to the conversation, he's done a great job of building a team that is tough to play against and is built for the playoffs as has Peter Chiarelli I think those four are probably the tops right now, and that excludes Lou Lamerillo and Bill Poile who are also good and i would be fine with them running my team.Well said. If it's just Shero vs. Holland, Holland wins. If it's all GM's, I put Holland at the top followed by (in no order), Shero, Lombardi and Bowman. Then Poile, Chiarelli and Lamorello. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 @Polaris922 @B21The Legion of Doom era didn't produce a cup because the Flyers had to trade half their team and 2 first round picks to get one player. As opposed to having him fall into their lap. \Polaris this is directed more toward B21 but you brought up the Doom comment. Tell me it isn't easier, not different, to build a team with 5 consecutive top 5 picks, 4 of which are top 2, than picking in the 20s over and over. I give Shero credit for some of his 1st round choices, as I do Holmgren. I give him credit for turning some of those top 5 picks into other pieces. You stil have an advantage over almost every other team in the league starting with those picks, two of whom are generational talents. How many of Sheros picks OUT of the top 5 have come anywhere near the same galaxy as Malkin and Crosby? You guys can call it "different" I call it easier.Only Staal was Shero's pick and that was a month after he was hired. They "fell into has lap" when he was hired as GM.You keep arguing where would the Pens be without Malkin and Crosby. Fine. Then tell me...what 3-4 good to great players would be taking up that $17 million plus each year? You don't just get to subtract without adding. $17 million is 3-4 years of Stamkos, Getzlaf and Perry (before they upped). Think that team wins a Cup?The answer is a different model on how to build a contender. Look at the Bruins. They spend close to the cap but spread the wealth around. Their top 12 fowards all make $1 million plus but none more than Krejci's $5.2 million....most are between $2.5 and $4,000,000. The Pens can't afford to do that so Shero has to go bargain hunting which he has done very well. Crosby, Malkin and a bunch of scrubs don't win a Cup. Crosby, Malkin and a well constructed supporting cast that includes some of those bargains does. Want more proof?How important was Hal Gill's shut down D in that Cup run? What about getting Adams off waivers? All Shero. Another answer to what happens if you take Malkin and Crosby away is....nothing. At least for half a season it happened. The rest of the team that Shero assembled did pretty well without those guys. Granted, that was not a team that was going to win a Cup but it shows that he's put a pretty good supporting cast around those guys that few GM's would be able to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 (edited) @B21First of all you're not getting Stamkos unless you pick first overall YET AGAIN. You're also not getting Getzlaf or Perry (you guys had the top pick in THAT draft as well and likely ended up with the 12th best player) because they've been in Anaheim all along and are staying there. Now you're playing with what we've had to. Pick in the 20s and hope you get lucky. Buy FAs that cost more money than if you had drafted them. The elite players don't just come running to your team, you have to give up picks/prospects/players or pay big. Welcome to our world.Here's an example. Picture the Flyers if they had Lindros (Crosby)fall in their lap instead of trading for him. Now you have Forsberg (Malkin)as your #1A. Rod BrindAmour (Staal) is your 3 and Mike Ricci (Vitale) is your 4th line center. In their prime I'd like to see that matchup. Guess you'd look like a pretty good gm with that lineup. Edited March 26, 2013 by flyercanuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 @flyercanuckIf the appraisal if a GM were SOLELY on draft picks then you'd be right, Shero has done well but not great. But the other things he's done with trades, making the team a place free agents WANT to be, etc etc... Those qualities are not easy to produce. The man is top five right now... I rank him #2 myself behind Holland, regardless of Holland's issues this past year and now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 I put Holland at the top followed by (in no order), Shero, Lombardi and BowmanI forgot about Bowman, he's done a really nice job of rebuilding the Hawks after having to blow them up after the cup year. For me it's kind of difficult to rank the GMs but There's nothing wrong with any of the guys mentioned there, any of them would be a good choice to build a winner.For the record, I don't think Homer is bad, I think he's average, he's made some good deals and some bad deals ,I think he has a good eye for talent, and i think he overpays to get "his or Ed's guy" and one of the ways he overpays is with NMCs and that's not desirable, but I think he'd be different and probably better if he were operating in a different corporate culture. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 @Polaris922Fair enough. But in the last 3 years your top 2 gm has got his team to half the playoff series the idiot Holmgren has got his team to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 @B21First of all you're not getting Stamkos unless you pick first overall YET AGAIN. You're also not getting Getzlaf or Perry (you guys had the top pick in THAT draft as well and likely ended up with the 12th best player) because they've been in Anaheim all along and are staying there. Now you're playing with what we've had to. Pick in the 20s and hope you get lucky. Buy FAs that cost more money than if you had drafted them. The elite players don't just come running to your team, you have to give up picks/prospects/players or pay big. Welcome to our world.Here's an example. Picture the Flyers if they had Lindros (Crosby)fall in their lap instead of trading for him. Now you have Forsberg (Malkin)as your #1A. Rod BrindAmour (Staal) is your 3 and Mike Ricci (Vitale) is your 4th line center. In their prime I'd like to see that matchup. Guess you'd look like a pretty good gm with that lineup.I know we won't get those exact players. The point is that $17 million can and would be spent to get some very serious talent elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 @Polaris922Fair enough. But in the last 3 years your top 2 gm has got his team to half the playoff series the idiot Holmgren has got his team to. And in the last 5 years our GM has gotten his team to 2X the number of Cup finals and managed to win one, too. (In no small part due to his additions to the team during those seasons....Gill, Adams, Hossa, et al.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 I know we won't get those exact players. The point is that $17 million can and would be spent to get some very serious talent elsewhere. For sure it would. But it sure wouldn't be the 2 of the best players on the planet, and you'd likely have to pay more as FAs. Who's better, Crosby and Malkin or Parise and Suter. Basically the same money. One gm had them handed to him, the other had to buy them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 I still appreciate everything that Holland has done. Not bad for a career minor league goalie (four games in the NHL) and NHL goalie coach. A lot of what I have read gives him credit for many of the decisions during the Devellano later years. An amzing quarter of a century unrivaled in the games history. No team has a longer history of making the playoffs. That said, I have felt for a long time that the game is passing him by. IMO the top two in the game today bar none hands down are Shero and Bowman. Shero has turned in to a master of the throw in. Working out a deal with an opposing GM and saying "Well were close, throw in Niskanen or throw in Dupuis or you have to take Whitneys contract." He is the one General Manager I would not want to deal with. Bowman has taken another tact. After being forced to gut his team following a Stanley cup, he kept them relevant without making that one stupid move, trading for a couple of veterans and gutting the future, instead he built an amazing farm system with picks in the twenties, and should be the envy of the league. So Shero by making amazing trades. Bowman by building the gold standard farm system. The top two GMs in the game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 @yave1964Sorry for the hijack. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 For sure it would. But it sure wouldn't be the 2 of the best players on the planet, and you'd likely have to pay more as FAs. Who's better, Crosby and Malkin or Parise and Suter. Basically the same money. One gm had them handed to him, the other had to buy them.Parise and Suter aren't Pens now because Shero wouldn't (or couldn't) overpay for them...length or salary. Unless you overpay, you won't find 2 other players who's total salaries should equal that $17+ million. You can find 3 who, if you subtracted Crosby and added them, would keep the Pens among the handful of teams with a legitimate shot at the Cup each year.It was not that long ago...2 seasons?...that the Flyers fans looooooooooved to rub in all their depth and how they were better positioned to win a Cup versus the Pens since we had all our eggs in two baskets. Now your making the exact opposite argument. Just sayin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 @yave1964Sorry for the hijack.Reported. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 @yave1964Sorry for the hijack.no, no not hijacked at all. Nice to see the give and take in here, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 @Polaris922Fair enough. But in the last 3 years your top 2 gm has got his team to half the playoff series the idiot Holmgren has got his team to. And in the last five... Wait... @B21 already said that... Uhh... Yeah what he said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 It was not that long ago...2 seasons?...that the Flyers fans looooooooooved to rub in all their depth and how they were better positioned to win a Cup versus the Pens since we had all our eggs in two baskets. Now your making the exact opposite argument. Just sayin'. this is the Shero VS Holland thread right ?since that time /\ Shero has pulled some rabbits out of some hats and helped his organization immensely, adding neal niskanen sutter literally from spare parts, Shero recognized what was going on with his depth and talent level and changed it pretty rapidly while remaining shrewd , good for him and you, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 I think Dale Tallon should get some props also, he was the real driving force behind putting the Hawks back at the top, give him some time in Florida and I bet he does the same thing there. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Parise and Suter aren't Pens now because Shero wouldn't (or couldn't) overpay for them...length or salary. Unless you overpay, you won't find 2 other players who's total salaries should equal that $17+ million. You can find 3 who, if you subtracted Crosby and added them, would keep the Pens among the handful of teams with a legitimate shot at the Cup each year.It was not that long ago...2 seasons?...that the Flyers fans looooooooooved to rub in all their depth and how they were better positioned to win a Cup versus the Pens since we had all our eggs in two baskets. Now your making the exact opposite argument. Just sayin'. 10 months? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 10 months?Calm down. Last season and the season before...got the same argument with those Richards and Carter teams, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 @B21haha..I'm calm. Just saying it was only 10 months ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 @B21haha..I'm calm. Just saying it was only 10 months ago.I was referring back to when Malkin and Crosby missed the entire 2nd half of the 2010-11 season. That's when the Flyers-have-so-much-depth is sooooooooooo much better than the Pens with "all their eggs in two baskets" nonsense started. That was two years ago but it carried over into last year, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 @B21 I meant when we beat you guys out of the playoffs. I think there may have been some gloating going on then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 @B21I meant when we beat you guys out of the playoffs. I think there may have been some gloating going on then.Then too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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