Shero versus Ken Holland

[yave1964]

A look at two organizations.

Last year, both the Penguins and Wings were early knockouts, good seasons followed by early knockouts. This season, the Pens are sitting in first in the East, still worried about the holes in the lineup that hurt last year, the Wings are fifth in the West, and Holland has done nothing.

Shero added Morrow a veteran on the decline but a leader who gives the team the best top nine in the game.

Then today, he added Douglas Murray, a nice, nasty stay at home defenseman who will give much needed protection to Fleury. These two moves complete the Pens, they are now the obvious favorite in the East.

Now Holland. The Wings have a desperate need for a minute eating stay at home defensibly responsible blue liner, Murray, a swede would have been a perfect fit. Nobody could wake Holland up. Morrow for a grade b prospect would have given us a leader and aging scorer, same thing.

Shero, sitting in first place was not satisfied and pulled the trigger to go for it this season.

Holland, sitting in fifth and by no means certain of a playoff spot told the team he is waiting to see if they win enough by the deadline to make a move. Instead of adding a Murray and or a Morrow or their ilk, he tells the team to play better and he will think about it. Really, it is sickening, the players ought to be able to sue him for non support.

Good for Shero. Shame on Kenny Holland. I think our next trade ought to be of GMs.

[flyercanuck]

Good move by Shero. In Hollands defence he's had a competetive team for 20 years straight. That shouldn't leave a whole lot in the prospect cupboard. Shero has had Crosby AND Malkin fall into his lap. He's had some decent drafts, and some decent trades. But it's much easier to have your team look good when you have arguably the two best players in the world, and Matt Millen on crack could have picked either of them. Holland is likely trying to figure out how to rebuild a team that just lost the best defenceman the league has seen in a longtime, not how to tweak a cup contender.

[jammer2]

@yave1964 In defense of Holland, sometimes the best moves are the ones you don't make. I can see other teams starting and ending with Nyguist, they don't want the Helms or an checker, they want to steal your future. Maybe that is all Holland has been given to choose from, parting ways with the future on offense, or staying pat. Consideriang Datsuyk and Zetts are not spring chickens, he's really got to watch out for the team long term, when those 2 stars are not there. If that is the type of choice he has been given, I don't blame him for staying pat.

[B21]

@yave1964

28 other organizations would give their left nut to have Holland. Fret not. The trade deadline is still over a week away.

[yave1964]

@yave1964

28 other organizations would give their left nut to have Holland. Fret not. The trade deadline is still over a week away.

Holland has seen his better days. Jimmy D. built the Wings up as the organizational benchmark of quality that other teams envy, Holland took the torch and has kept the team as one of the leagues best. His record of twelve consecutive 100 point seasons may never be broken. Envy and jealousy among fans and teams is a given.

My problem is that over the last two seasons, he has left the team high and dry. Last year, with over four million in cap space, after acquiring Quincey he left all that money in the bank and the wings were a quick exit. A sniper, a scoring forward could have given Lidstrom a send off to remember, instead of a bang he went out with a whimper.

This year, instead of being aggressive as he had done in years past, again we sit silently with obvious holes. Instead of addressing them, he told the team he would wait and see where they were before the trade deadline before deciding what to do.

The Wings are not a bad team. We have some gaping holes, we have pieces that we could offer up to fill them. And Holland sits silent again. I blame last years early exit entirely on his apathy, and cannot believe he did not do something to replace Lidstrom (Not that anyone ever will REALLY replace Nick) in the lineup. Brian Lashoff and Kent Huskins. Really.

So if he lets another season die on the vine it should fall squarely on his shoulders. I don't think the Ilitch has ran out of pizza dough and should be able to afford to make a move. Hell, if we go get the shut down defensemen and top six forward we need, I will even promise to go buy and even attempt to gag down a little ceasar pizza once a week for the rest of the season.

[flyercanuck]

@B21

28?

[B21]

@B21

28?

30 teams. Wings + Pens + 28 = 30.

I know...Shero lucked into Crosby and Malkin. Very true. But...Crosby and Malkin are also paid more than any other NHL player sans OV which means Shero has to build a Cup contender with a lot less cap room to work with. He's also going to have to let guys go (or make the preemptive trade) that other teams spending to the cap would otherwise be able to keep. No way he should have gotten the haul he did for Staal.

Having Crosby and Malkin to work with doesn't make it easier or harder i/m/o....just different.

So I'll stick with Ray.

[B21]

Holland has seen his better days. Jimmy D. built the Wings up as the organizational benchmark of quality that other teams envy, Holland took the torch and has kept the team as one of the leagues best. His record of twelve consecutive 100 point seasons may never be broken. Envy and jealousy among fans and teams is a given.

My problem is that over the last two seasons, he has left the team high and dry. Last year, with over four million in cap space, after acquiring Quincey he left all that money in the bank and the wings were a quick exit. A sniper, a scoring forward could have given Lidstrom a send off to remember, instead of a bang he went out with a whimper.

This year, instead of being aggressive as he had done in years past, again we sit silently with obvious holes. Instead of addressing them, he told the team he would wait and see where they were before the trade deadline before deciding what to do.

The Wings are not a bad team. We have some gaping holes, we have pieces that we could offer up to fill them. And Holland sits silent again. I blame last years early exit entirely on his apathy, and cannot believe he did not do something to replace Lidstrom (Not that anyone ever will REALLY replace Nick) in the lineup. Brian Lashoff and Kent Huskins. Really.

So if he lets another season die on the vine it should fall squarely on his shoulders. I don't think the Ilitch has ran out of pizza dough and should be able to afford to make a move. Hell, if we go get the shut down defensemen and top six forward we need, I will even promise to go buy and even attempt to gag down a little ceasar pizza once a week for the rest of the season.

Maybe true but we never know exactly what goes on behind the scenes. With his track record, he's earned a few years of "only" getting to the playoffs. Just my $.02.

[flyercanuck]

30 teams. Wings + Pens + 28 = 30.

I know...Shero lucked into Crosby and Malkin. Very true. But...Crosby and Malkin are also paid more than any other NHL player sans OV which means Shero has to build a Cup contender with a lot less cap room to work with. He's also going to have to let guys go (or make the preemptive trade) that other teams spending to the cap would otherwise be able to keep. No way he should have gotten the haul he did for Staal.

Having Crosby and Malkin to work with doesn't make it easier or harder i/m/o....just different.

So I'll stick with Ray.

Ya, I'm sure if you asked the other 29 gms in the NHL if they'd like the top 2 players in the league but have to take those burdening caphits (which aren't even the worst in the league Malkin is 8th, Crosby 19th) most would run away and hide. Right. Shero has the easiest job as a gm in the league. He's done a good job. But he's got it the easiest.

[Polaris922]

Ya, I'm sure if you asked the other 29 gms in the NHL if they'd like the top 2 players in the league but have to take those burdening caphits (which aren't even the worst in the league Malkin is 8th, Crosby 19th) most would run away and hide. Right. Shero has the easiest job as a gm in the league. He's done a good job. But he's got it the easiest.

I think @B21 is right here. Yeah it's great having those fall into your lap, but you still have a budget to deal with just like every other GM. You still have cap issues and needs beyond your top two centers. So he has center covered... Yeah that's easy... But our defensive prospects didnt just materialize. His trades have been excellent, and he doesn't throw money away.

His job got easier because of two great players.

Holmgren's job SHOULD be easier as he could spend money without concern for much if anything... Hence the ridiculous offer for Weber. The long term contracts with bonuses, etc etc...

So he sucks at it.

It's not any easier either way... Just different problems to be faced.

[flyercanuck]

@Polaris922

A gms job is to build the best team possible, How can it possibly get any easier to build the best team when TWO of the best players in the entire world basically fall into your lap? The difference between that and what most other gms are dealing with is, if you WANT a top player and he doesn't fall into your lap, you have to overpay for him (AKA lure him away as a FA) Crosby makes more than some teams payroll in endorsements-he could play for free and still be the richest NHLer. Malkin can't ask for MORE than Crosby, so you've got both players at under what they could be paid. That frees up enough money to bring in another good player. Ya, sounds like a tough job.

Put it this way, give Philly Crosby and Malkin, you guys can have Steve Downie and Rob Schremp and see who's gm looks better then?

Edited March 26, 2013 by flyercanuck

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922

A gms job is to build the best team possible, How can it possibly get any easier to build the best team when TWO of the best players in the entire world basically fall into your lap? The difference between that and what most other gms are dealing with is, if you WANT a top player and he doesn't fall into your lap, you have to overpay for him (AKA lure him away as a FA) Crosby makes more than some teams payroll in endorsements-he could play for free and still be the richest NHLer. Malkin can't ask for MORE than Crosby, so you've got both players at under what they could be paid. That frees up enough money to bring in another good player. Ya, sounds like a tough job.

Put it this way, give Philly Crosby and Malkin, you guys can have Steve Downie and Rob Schremp and see who's gm looks better then?

We still would ... Because your numb nuts GM would've traded them for Miroslav Satan and Sergei Gonchar... Plus given us two second rounders while paying half their salaries.

Seriously... If we had your GM we'd be failing despite Crosby and Malkin. I know it sucks to hear, but I've no doubt in my mind its true.

[flyercanuck]

@Polaris922

It's pretty hard to judge gms when one has FOUR top 2 picks and another top 5, two of which produce generational talents that were absolute no-brainers for him to pick, and the other gets ONE top 2 pick in one of the worst drafts in history. Holmgren has had to try and buy talent to make up for those picks. I'm no Holmgren fan, but he's had a lot tougher road than Shero has. Theres no arguing that. It's easy picking gems at 1 or 2. Try picking them in the 20s. Hows Angelo Esposito working out for you?

Edited March 26, 2013 by flyercanuck

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922

It's pretty hard to judge gms when one has FOUR top 2 picks and another top 5, two of which produce generational talents that were absolute no-brainers for him to pick, and the other gets ONE top 2 pick in one of the worst drafts in history. Holmgren has had to try and buy talent to make up for those picks. I'm no Holmgren fan, but he's had a lot tougher road than Shero has. Theres no arguing that. It's easy picking gems at 1 or 2. Try picking them in the 20s. Hows Angelo Esposito working out for you? Daulton Leveille?

I'm not arguing its tougher to draft, but in my opinion Holmgren hasn't drafted well. There are numerous threads about his multiple failures in drafts, trades, etc... I'm not going to revisit it here.

I will defend Shero as one of the best if not THE best GM in the league. Take the draft completely out of it if you will, his trade acquisitions, handling of his top dollar players, so called "extras" on the trades he's made, and the fact that free agents want to come here... Plus going to the finals, then winning a Cup... You don't do all that with just Crosby and Malkin and no other work.

You know it as well as I do. Hate our draft timing all you want, it's just one piece to the larger puzzle. And keeping that puzzle together can be even tougher.

Brandon Sutter says hello... As do Puliot and Dumoulin... And Niskanen, Neal, Morrow and Murray... Guerin and Roberts...

Edited March 26, 2013 by Polaris922

[B21]

Ya, I'm sure if you asked the other 29 gms in the NHL if they'd like the top 2 players in the league but have to take those burdening caphits (which aren't even the worst in the league Malkin is 8th, Crosby 19th) most would run away and hide. Right. Shero has the easiest job as a gm in the league. He's done a good job. But he's got it the easiest.

And who was it that got Malkin and Crosby to agree to less than market value? I'm guessing Ray had a big part in that. Not saying he's not at an advantage. But he also has to put the pieces around those guys. Even at the 8th and 9th spots, they take up a large % of the cap. Not to mention, both have missed significant time over the last two years and the Pens haven't missed a beat. That's not a credit to Shero and the "other" players he added?

Hossa AND Dupius for a bag of pucks?

Neal AND Niskanen for Goligoski?

Kunitz AND Tangredi (at the time a highly regarded prospect) for Ryan Whitney?

Sutter, Dumoulin AND the 8th overall for Staal?

"Easier" or not. He is one of the best GM's in the league.

Edited March 26, 2013 by B21

[flyercanuck]

@Polaris922

Take Malkin and Crosby off the Pens, do you win a cup? Hardly. Put them on Philly against Chicago in the finals, heck stick one of them in net and voila, Holmgren has more cups than Shero.

Holmgren isn't bad at drafting. I'm positive Giroux is his choice (Clarke didn't even know his name) JVR.Couturier Laughton. His biggest problem is trading picks away to try and win now. Snider may well be forcing the issue there.

Voracek and Schenn say hello. Couturier and Simmonds. Another Schenn. (those trades will all pay off in a few years moreso than now) Matt Read Grossmann. Hartnell and Timonen. Coburn. Forsberg. Pronger.

Again, I'm not a Homer homer.

[B21]

@Polaris922

It's pretty hard to judge gms when one has FOUR top 2 picks and another top 5, two of which produce generational talents that were absolute no-brainers for him to pick, and the other gets ONE top 2 pick in one of the worst drafts in history. Holmgren has had to try and buy talent to make up for those picks. I'm no Holmgren fan, but he's had a lot tougher road than Shero has. Theres no arguing that. It's easy picking gems at 1 or 2. Try picking them in the 20s. Hows Angelo Esposito working out for you?

It's easy to judge Holmgren. He's not that good. Maybe it's Ed and his 'win now' mantra or maybe it's Clarke still having a hand in things or maybe he's just not a good judge of talent. That's for the Flyers fans to decide.

I do know this. There are few teams in the NHL that spend to the cap every year. You're one of them. That is also an advantage over most of the rest of the league.

Yet Holmgren gives out bad contracts like they are setting his on fire. Pronger. Briere. Bryzgalov. Heck, even Richards and Carter. What bad contracts has Shero given out? Mihalek maybe? Where is he now? Who on the Pens is "overpaid" except for maybe Tanner Glass by a whopping $500,000?

So I'll see your Esposito (need to ask the Thrashers/Jets how he's doing last I checked) and raise you (2009) Simon Depres, Philip Samuelsson, (2010) Beau Bennett, Tom Kuhnhackl, (2011) Joe Morrow, Scott Harrington and (2012) Derek Pouliot and Olli Maatta (still early on them but you get the idea).

I don't give him credit for Staal in 2006 or kill him for missing on Toews. 2007 was not a good draft. Bortuzzo in the 3rd and Jeffrey in the 7th (I think) are still around. Alex Grant is still in the system. Caputi was dealt for Ponikarovsky as part of a Cup run although he should get some credit for him.

No picks in rounds 1-3 in 2008. You have 2009+ above.

Somehow Ray has managed to have on of the best farm systems in the NHL while picking late since 2007 and at the same time finding affordable pieces to put along side Crosby and Malkin.

If that doesn't make him top 5 then I don't know what does (see the trades I outlined previously).

You say "easier". I say "different".

[yave1964]

Shero does his homework and pulls the trigger every year on a not just for one year but for the the future. The trade for Morrow cost them a future blueliner in the other Morrow, part b of the deal brought in Murray. Brilliant.

[mojo1917]

Neal AND Niskanen for Goligoski?

Kunitz AND Tangredi (at the time a highly regarded prospect) for Ryan Whitney?

Sutter, Dumoulin AND the 8th overall for Staal?

I didn't know niskanen came over in the goligoski trade... wow, that was shrewd.

Also the haul for Staal has got to be the steal of the decade so far, and i say that as a fan of J Staal.

you're not right about holmgren's ability to judge talent though, we rag on him pretty hard because we eat our young but the man has found good players late in the draft, year after year. he does better with forwards for sure, but he knows NHL talent when he sees it. I'm pretty sure at this point he's got an Al Davis like boss telling him to "win now Paul , my arteries are hardening fast....it's getting cough cough dark ..." let's see how anyone operates with the chairman flying his jet to phoenix to "fix the goalie situation"...

I also think the contracts for what at the time was consider to be "the franchise" players (Richards & Carter) weren't outta hand, they had reasonable cap hit numbers for the duration of those two players primes, good enough that they were easily trade-able.

Edited March 26, 2013 by mojo1917

[flyercanuck]

And who was it that got Malkin and Crosby to agree to less than market value? I'm guessing Ray had a big part in that. Not saying he's not at an advantage. But he also has to put the pieces around those guys. Even at the 8th and 9th spots, they take up a large % of the cap. Not to mention, both have missed significant time over the last two years and the Pens haven't missed a beat. That's not a credit to Shero and the "other" players he added?

Hossa AND Dupius for a bag of pucks?

Neal AND Niskanen for Goligoski?

Kunitz AND Tangredi (at the time a highly regarded prospect) for Ryan Whitney?

Sutter, Dumoulin AND the 8th overall for Staal?

"Easier" or not. He is one of the best GM's in the league.

If Crosby and Malkin are going to play on the same team, and want decent linemates, well, do I have to explain? Like I said, Crosby could play for free and still be well paid. He doesn't have to take a discount.But that's likely more on Crosbys desire to win than a genius Shero move.

Hossa and Dupuis were a nice trade. Hossa was leaving Atlanta anyway. And we all know what great trades Atlantas made. We've had Coburn now for how many years since Zhitnik retired? Homer made that deal

Kunitz and Tangredi. Really? First of all you traded yet another one of those top 5 picks I already mentioned that the team is built around, for a guy who's topped out at 61 points playing with the best player in the world (Giroux turned Hartnell into a 37 goal scorer and Homer got him AND Timonen for a 1st round pick that was nowhere near 5th overall) Tangredi is a bust.

Sutter Dumoulin & 8th overall for Staal.

Yep, here's one of those top 2 picks yet again. Philly got Giroux at 22 that same year.

[B21]

@mojo1917

I didn't know niskanen came over in the goligoski trade... wow, that was shrewd.

Also the haul for Staal has got to be the steal of the decade so far, and i say that as a fan of J Staal.

Yup. I think the Goligoski/Neal/Niskanen deal is more of a steal now. Not that I don't like the Staal deal but I didn't expect quite as much scoring from Sutter. The "steal" aspect of that deal comes from the fact that Shero was dealing from a point of weakness with the only team Staal wanted to go to...and still got Sutter, Dumoulin and 8th overall.

you're not right about holmgren's ability to judge talent though, we rag on him pretty hard because we eat our young but the man has found good players late in the draft, year after year. he does better with forwards for sure, but he knows NHL talent when he sees it. I'm pretty sure at this point he's got an Al Davis like boss telling him to "win now Paul , my arteries are hardening fast....it's getting cough cough dark ..." let's see how anyone operates with the chairman flying his jet to phoenix to "fix the goalie situation"...

Well - like I said. That's for you guys to decide. I'm just throwing out possibilities.

I also think the contracts for what at the time was consider to be "the franchise" players (Richards & Carter) weren't outta hand, they had reasonable cap hit numbers for the duration of those two players primes, good enough that they were easily trade-able.

It wasn't the cap hit for me - it was the length (12 years, right?). Richards and Carter are nice players but at the time of their deals there hadn't been a single contract of that length that wasn't a disaster. DiPietro. Yashin. Kovalchuk. You guys gave out two of them.

[B21]

If Crosby and Malkin are going to play on the same team, and want decent linemates, well, do I have to explain? Like I said, Crosby could play for free and still be well paid. He doesn't have to take a discount.But that's likely more on Crosbys desire to win than a genius Shero move.

Hossa and Dupuis were a nice trade. Hossa was leaving Atlanta anyway. And we all know what great trades Atlantas made. We've had Coburn now for how many years since Zhitnik retired? Homer made that deal

Kunitz and Tangredi. Really? First of all you traded yet another one of those top 5 picks I already mentioned that the team is built around, for a guy who's topped out at 61 points playing with the best player in the world (Giroux turned Hartnell into a 37 goal scorer and Homer got him AND Timonen for a 1st round pick that was nowhere near 5th overall) Tangredi is a bust.

Sutter Dumoulin & 8th overall for Staal.

Yep, here's one of those top 2 picks yet again. Philly got Giroux at 22 that same year.

So what's the magic formula then? When is a GM a good GM? When he only builds a team picking late year after year like Holland to whom I've already given credit as the best GM in the league? When a team is on a budget and manages to get into the playoffs as a 6/7/8 seed every year like a Poile?

You want to give credit for Giroux to Homer? Was he taken a lot higher than he was projected? No. If Homer had the 2nd pick in that draft, is he taking Giroux? No. He took a guy right about where most experts said he should be taken.

Re: Staal. See post to Mojo. Think about the circumstances he was making that deal under then tell me that is not a phenominal haul. Who cares if Staal is the #2 pick. It's about what he was able to get for him. He got a lore more than he should have i/m/h/o.

Re: Kunitz. Again - who cares where Whitney was taken? He was an average defenceman when that deal was made. Tangredi, at the time of the deal, was fairly highly regarded. I'm looking at the circumstances at the time of the deal. Shero got what was a decent prospect at the time on a deal that should have been straight up. Homer would have thrown in a 2nd round pick along with Whitney. If you prefer to look at Where are they now?...Whitney is a spare part asking out of Edmonton. Kunitz is on pace for a 100 point season. And yes, big Eric was a bust.

Re: Hossa. Dupuis was an afterthought. A throw in. Now look at him. I'll give credit to Shero for getting him included in the deal when it really should have been all those picks and prospects for Hossa.

What about the Neal deal?

For whatever reason, Shero seems to have the ability to get that "extra" piece in each deal that turns into an affordable part of the Pens' big picture. Niskanen. Dupuis. Maybe I'll be saying the same thing about Dumoulin down the road.

I get the argument that it can be looked at when you have Crosby and Malkin as being "easier". I'll stick with "different".

[Polaris922]

I Think this thread resembles a lot of what Flyers fans think of the Penguins. Many Flyers fans feel the league handed the Penguins their success. They fail to recognize the work that goes into building the team around those couple top picks. They also fail to recognize the work a GM has to put into building the team around them and keeping them all here and happy. Many fail to understand the difficulty of keeping elite players within the salary cap without destroying the rest of the team. NHL history is full of teams with great talent that never went anywhere because of poor chemistry. The flyrs Legion of doom line comes to mind. Nobody here is saying the Ray Shero is the greatest GM Ever in the game, but he's done one hell of a job with what he's had. His drafts have been solid addressing team needs, AFTER the easy choices, and his trades have been stellar both in quality and timing.

PS: Sorry for Any spelling or grammar errors but my iPhone is typing this as I speak.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Polaris922

[mojo1917]

I think Shero is a shrewd guy, he's a good GM; the thread is VS Holland, whom i know little about except his team is always the team you have to beat to win the west, (at least until recently) there is system Detroit has for evaluating talent that others should copy, they consistently find excellent players while drafting late, using the euro elite leagues, khl scouting, they always have guys in the pipeline nearly ready to step in, doesn't hurt to get lucky with a lidstrom every 15 years or so either. I think they're both very good, i'd also add Dean Lombardi to the conversation, he's done a great job of building a team that is tough to play against and is built for the playoffs as has Peter Chiarelli I think those four are probably the tops right now, and that excludes Lou Lamerillo and Bill Poile who are also good and i would be fine with them running my team.

[flyercanuck]

@Polaris922 @B21

The Legion of Doom era didn't produce a cup because the Flyers had to trade half their team and 2 first round picks to get one player. As opposed to having him fall into their lap. \

Polaris this is directed more toward B21 but you brought up the Doom comment. Tell me it isn't easier, not different, to build a team with 5 consecutive top 5 picks, 4 of which are top 2, than picking in the 20s over and over. I give Shero credit for some of his 1st round choices, as I do Holmgren. I give him credit for turning some of those top 5 picks into other pieces. You stil have an advantage over almost every other team in the league starting with those picks, two of whom are generational talents. How many of Sheros picks OUT of the top 5 have come anywhere near the same galaxy as Malkin and Crosby? You guys can call it "different" I call it easier.