Who's The Greatest of Them All?

[Polaris922]

Arguably the greatest player to ever play the game? You have zero credibility with that comment.

Lemieux IS arguably the greatest player to ever play the game. They didn't "tank" to get Crosby... they legitimately sucked, and won a lottery that reduced their odds of getting him quite substantially.

[flyercanuck]

Lemieux IS arguably the greatest player to ever play the game.

Ya, him and Clarke right?

[Polaris922]

Ya, him and Clarke right?

You disagree??

[flyercanuck]

@Polaris922

That Lemieux is greatest? Ya.

I put Orr at #1. Gretzky at #2 and Howe at #3. Then Mario. Put 5 Orrs on the ice against 5 Gretzkys, or Howes, or Lemieuxs and I'll put my money on Orr all day long.

[trevluk]

@Polaris922

That Lemieux is greatest? Ya.

I put Orr at #1. Gretzky at #2 and Howe at #3. Then Mario. Put 5 Orrs on the ice against 5 Gretzkys, or Howes, or Lemieuxs and I'll put my money on Orr all day long.

Hard to argue with your list FC and I do think Orr deserves that recognition because he was an excellent defenseman that just happened to skate and score like a forward. However, this is all subjective and I think you can acknowledge that Lemieux is "arguably" the best player to play the game, just as Orr and Gretzky and Howe should be considered for that honor. I think if Mario had stayed healthy his whole career like Wayne did, I think Wayne may hold a few less records than he does. The same could be said about Orr - if he had a full career, he was so talented that he may have earned the title "indisputed best player ever" but we'll never know.

[flyercanuck]

@trevluk

I agree with you 100%. I know I'll never talk a Pens fan out of Lemieux being best, an Oiler fan out of Gretzky etc. I consider myself fairly neutral on this debate as a fan of all four since none of them played for my team. I've just always sided with Orr because he could play the game anyway you wanted and he could play it well. He was at least as fast, as tough and as skilled as any of the other 4 and you can't say that about the rest of them. Putting up 102 assists in one season as a Dman is as incredible a feat as Gretzkys 212 points IMO. Only Howe could match him in grit. I don't think any of them could skate as well as Orr. And his skill changed the way defencemen played the game.

[Polaris922]

@trevluk

I agree with you 100%. I know I'll never talk a Pens fan out of Lemieux being best, an Oiler fan out of Gretzky etc. I consider myself fairly neutral on this debate as a fan of all four since none of them played for my team. I've just always sided with Orr because he could play the game anyway you wanted and he could play it well. He was at least as fast, as tough and as skilled as any of the other 4 and you can't say that about the rest of them. Putting up 102 assists in one season as a Dman is as incredible a feat as Gretzkys 212 points IMO. Only Howe could match him in grit. I don't think any of them could skate as well as Orr. And his skill changed the way defencemen played the game.

I consider Orr one if the greatest, but he played in an era where goals per game were much higher than Gretzky or Lemieux, and goaltending was just weaker than its been in recent times. He did revolutionize the role if the defenseman, but I don't put him in the same light as Lemieux or Gretzky. Gretzky has some great records, and Lemieux was the only player in history to average over 2 points per game until he came out if that last retirement. Unfortunately playing like that dropped him to a 1.8 and behind Gretzky.

Oh, and for comparison Orr averaged 1.3. He's fifth place all time right behind Crosby.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Polaris922

[Lunatic]

Hard to argue with your list FC and I do think Orr deserves that recognition because he was an excellent defenseman that just happened to skate and score like a forward. However, this is all subjective and I think you can acknowledge that Lemieux is "arguably" the best player to play the game, just as Orr and Gretzky and Howe should be considered for that honor. I think if Mario had stayed healthy his whole career like Wayne did, I think Wayne may hold a few less records than he does. The same could be said about Orr - if he had a full career, he was so talented that he may have earned the title "indisputed best player ever" but we'll never know.

If

It's really difficult to compare the four. If Lemieux and Orr had stayed healthy? if Gretsky had not been on the Oilers? if Howe played during te same period? who knows. In comparing the four, they each had their strengths and weaknesses. Orr was not great defensively, as I remember it, but boy did he revolutionize his position. Gretsky had no trouble piling points on, the more points the better, whereas, Mario never, or seldom, piled points on when the outcome of game, was not in question. I respected him for that. Howe is Howe. I got to watch much of his early/mid career through CKLW. He was indestuctible, never put up points as many points in any one year, as the other three but he lasted forever, additionally he was mean, mean, mean.

I might put Bobby Hull in this group. He revolutionized the modern-day slap shot.

Pittsburgh has been very fortunate to have two generational best players in Lemieux and Crosby.

[Claude Monet]

@flyercanuck

I am with you on Orr. I am too young to have watched him but when I watched the dvd's the Flyers put out a few back about their history and cup runs......HOLY SH IT did Bobby Orr stand out in those clips!!

It is funny about a Dman changing the game because during the same time period the exact thing happened in soccer as well. Franz Beckenbaurer was a sweeper that started going forward and created offense. Kind of funny ow two guys came along at the same time and changed their respected sports for the same reason.

[Lunatic]

@flyercanuck

I am with you on Orr. I am too young to have watched him but when I watched the dvd's the Flyers put out a few back about their history and cup runs......HOLY SH IT did Bobby Orr stand out in those clips!!

It is funny about a Dman changing the game because during the same time period the exact thing happened in soccer as well. Franz Beckenbaurer was a sweeper that started going forward and created offense. Kind of funny ow two guys came along at the same time and changed their respected sports for the same reason.

Interesting. I did know about Beckenbauer, but it was truly a time of change.

[Polaris922]

If

It's really difficult to compare the four. If Lemieux and Orr had stayed healthy? if Gretsky had not been on the Oilers? if Howe played during te same period? who knows. In comparing the four, they each had their strengths and weaknesses. Orr was not great defensively, as I remember it, but boy did he revolutionize his position. Gretsky had no trouble piling points on, the more points the better, whereas, Mario never, or seldom, piled points on when the outcome of game, was not in question. I respected him for that. Howe is Howe. I got to watch much of his early/mid career through CKLW. He was indestuctible, never put up points as many points in any one year, as the other three but he lasted forever, additionally he was mean, mean, mean.

I might put Bobby Hull in this group. He revolutionized the modern-day slap shot.

Pittsburgh has been very fortunate to have two generational best players in Lemieux and Crosby.

That's possibly the big knock on Bobby Orr... He was such a great offensive minded player his defense was a little lacking. Great player though, absolutely.

[TimKerrFan12]

I am so proud of the Flyers that the just lost 5 positions in the draft and get the 13th overall pick instead of the 8th overall pick.

[Lunatic]

I am a Flyers fan, but I respect greatness. I would have loved to see Lemieux stay healthy and have a little bit of Wayne's selfishness. He was am amazing player, maybe the most amazing.

[sarsippius]

I consider Orr one if the greatest, but he played in an era where goals per game were much higher than Gretzky or Lemieux, and goaltending was just weaker than its been in recent times.

I gotta call you on that one, I don't have statistics in front of me but I know for a fact the late 80s, when Gretzky was having those ridiculous seasons, was the highest scoring era in league history. And if it did drop off after that, it was certainly still higher in Mario's cup years than it was when Orr was in his prime. As far as goaltending being weaker, I dunno man, I think if you're going to stay with your statistical argument and look at GAA that's not going to hold up.

[Polaris922]

I gotta call you on that one, I don't have statistics in front of me but I know for a fact the late 80s, when Gretzky was having those ridiculous seasons, was the highest scoring era in league history. And if it did drop off after that, it was certainly still higher in Mario's cup years than it was when Orr was in his prime. As far as goaltending being weaker, I dunno man, I think if you're going to stay with your statistical argument and look at GAA that's not going to hold up.

I've always read that in Orr's day there were no real butterfly goalies and they tended to stay upright more. That an early generation masks kept them on their skates more meaning higher GAA's. early 80's was the peak but dropped sharply in '85 when Lemieux started his career. Orr was part of the buildup to its peak before leaving the sport, as was Gretzky. Lemieux hit the clutch and grab era... So I stand by my comment about Orr playing in some if the most prolific goal scoring years. It did peak shortly after he left though.

[pensuck]

Isn't this topic about being proud of the Flyers? Lol

[JackStraw]

I consider Orr one if the greatest, but he played in an era where goals per game were much higher than Gretzky or Lemieux, and goaltending was just weaker than its been in recent times. He did revolutionize the role if the defenseman, but I don't put him in the same light as Lemieux or Gretzky. Gretzky has some great records, and Lemieux was the only player in history to average over 2 points per game until he came out if that last retirement. Unfortunately playing like that dropped him to a 1.8 and behind Gretzky.

Oh, and for comparison Orr averaged 1.3. He's fifth place all time right behind Crosby.

Scoring during the Gretzky era was roughly the same as when Orr played. Particularly the first half of Gretzky's career. It was probably a bit lower during most of Mario's career. Obviously scoring is not the main criteria for judging Orr's career. But if you want stats, check +/-. Orr's career +/- per game is over 0.9. Nobody is remotely close to that. I think Larry Robinson is next at somewhere around 0.5. Having Orr on the ice gave his team close to a one goal per game advantage. Yes, +/- can be misleading, you need context. In Orr's case, he was the context. Those Bruins teams were not stacked. Esposito was great in front of the net, but didn't do much else. The other forwards were sort of lunch pail types. Defensemen other than Orr were nothing special. Goaltending was nothing special. Orr was the only thing really special about those teams.

A defenseman leading the scoring (not to mention doing it twice) is absurd. Unheard of. More remarkable than any single thing Gretzky or Mario accomplished. For the record, I think Mario was better than Gretzky. Howe (who I saw only late in his career) was imo, better than both of them. And Orr was the best. As FC noted 5 of Bobby Orr on the ice pretty much blows away 5 of anyone else.

That's possibly the big knock on Bobby Orr... He was such a great offensive minded player his defense was a little lacking. Great player though, absolutely

I have to wonder if you ever saw Orr play. Because I did, many times (had season tix to the Flyers back in the day) and I know that his defense was in no way lacking. And I have never heard anyone who did see him play suggest that his defense was lacking. He was tremendous in his own end, in the other team's end, and in the part in between.

I grew up despising the Bruins. But watching Orr play over the years, it was impossible not to realize how great he was.

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

Just to muddy the waters, I would have liked to see Lindros stay healthy and see what he could have done. He would run through any of those four. :PHI:

[JackStraw]

I've always read that in Orr's day there were no real butterfly goalies and they tended to stay upright more. That an early generation masks kept them on their skates more meaning higher GAA's. early 80's was the peak but dropped sharply in '85 when Lemieux started his career. Orr was part of the buildup to its peak before leaving the sport, as was Gretzky. Lemieux hit the clutch and grab era... So I stand by my comment about Orr playing in some if the most prolific goal scoring years. It did peak shortly after he left though.

Here are the stats: http://slapshot.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/nhl-scoring-way-way-down/

1967-68 to ’76-77: 6.30 (Orr's era)

1977-78 to ’86-87: 7.46 (Gretzky's first year was '79)

1987-88 to ’96-97: 6.71

1987-88 to ’96-97: 6.71 (Mario's time)

1997-98 to ’07-08: 5.32

Except the latter part of Mario's career, scoring in Orr's time was a bit lower. The game was more defense oriented, generally not as wide open. One reason for that was that the role of offensive defenseman hadn't really taken hold, since Orr pretty much invented that role.

As for butterfly goalies, Tony Esposito was one. Glenn Hall was another. There other goalies who "sprawled", not really stand-up but not butterfly. Dryden was kind of like that. Doug Favell of the Flyers, Cheevers… The biggest change is probably due to increased size of goalie pads, goalies can drop and cover a huge part of the goal. They're also bigger today. Dryden was considered huge at 6'4". In Orr's day it was much easier for defensemen to clear the crease, the Flyers defensemen used to basically mug guys who camped out in front of Parent. You can't do that anymore so forwards have more room in close to the goal, making stand-up styles less effective.

[Bakanekimiwa]

my franchise tanked up to eight meaningless games to out tank the Devils for arguably the greatest player to ever play the game.

whooooaaaahhhhhh... slow down there sparky. Crosby still has a loooooong time to go before he even deserves to be spoken of in the same sentence as the Great One. And ThEnnnnn he has to contend with Mario and Messier. Holy crap he's NOT even close yet.

[Polaris922]

@JackStraw

I often refer to comments such as the ones on this page...

http://hockeyanalytics.com/2009/02/the-eras-of-the-nhl/

The Expansion Years (1968-1986)

This was a bad time to be a goaltender (although a few, such as Ken Dryden, won enduring fame) with high goals against averages being the norm.

It was a great time to be a forward (or Paul Coffey or Ray Bourque). Fifty goal seasons became cheap and careers lengthened due to expansion, talent dilution and the lure of salary inflation. When you combine this with the steady increase in the number of games played you have a recipe for all time scoring leadership. Of the top 30 scorers of all time only six did not play much in the 1970s or 1980s (five are still active). And you have to dive down deep to number 31, Alex Delvechio, to find a player whose career largely preceded this period and who was not named Gordie Howe.

Was this a Golden Age of hockey? Expansion polluted the product and distorted the numbers. But the record books are never adjusted for this. History will report a high population of offensive stars from this period. It was an era of rapid change in the game and the Greatest One put up his greatest numbers during this time. Perhaps it was both the best of times and the worst of times.

After that they refer to it as:

The Goaltending Years (1987-2007)

And discuss how hard it became to score... which was Lemieux's prime time. I remember the constant rants about the clutch and grab Jersey style of play.

Those are the things I refer to and remember. I didn't see Orr much as I was young, but what I remember was he was always in the offensive zone, usually near the top of the faceoff dots... and I remember wondering why his coaches let him roam in so tight when he would get burned and not be able to get back fairly often. I understand the game better now, and see his offensive prowess for what it was... but I still think he was in a softer era... before the trap and clutch/grab stuff... and I think the goaltenders got better in the late 80's. Hasek, Brodeur, Belfour, CuJo, Fuhr... many great goaltenders.

@Bakanekimiwa

I wasn't referring to Crosby. LOL We didn't tank to get him.. we genuinely sucked.

[Polaris922]

Just to muddy the waters, I would have liked to see Lindros stay healthy and see what he could have done. He would run through any of those four. :PHI:

He didn't score at the pace of the others... and his style? It's a wonder he lasted as long as he did. Lindros was 19th overall in points per game in NHL history.

[B21]

Isn't this topic about being proud of the Flyers? Lol

I am proud of the Flyers.

Gotta admit though, it's a fun debate.

Orr did play during years where scoring was down and/or goaltending was "better". During the Gretzky/Lemieux years it was rare for there to be more than a handful of netminders with sub-3.00 GAA (not to start another debate but this is why Patrick Roy is the greatest goalie of all time - and I can't stand him). Usually a lot more during Orr's prime (8-10).

That said, Gretzky has more career assists than any other player has points. That ends the #1 argument for me.

Lemieux and Orr battle it out for 2nd. I could go either way. Both had their careers impacted by injuries (Orr's knees and Lemieux's back + Hodgkin's). I'll give a slight edge to Orr only because he really did revolutionize a position.

So for me it's Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, Howe and then Carcillo or Rinaldo.

[Skatebyu66]

You're right.. They didn't win the Cup.

Yeah..thank GOD they didnt do a Pittsburgh...winning all those games, playing 60 minutes each game....whew...lucky Pens

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

He didn't score at the pace of the others... and his style? It's a wonder he lasted as long as he did. Lindros was 19th overall in points per game in NHL history.

Obviously, he played a different style than the other 4. He played on some horrible teams early in his career. Before the injuries he was unstoppable.