Who's The Greatest of Them All?

[flyercanuck]

If you think Orr was bad defensively, you didn't see him play. In 74 Parent had a 1.89 GAA. not exactly what I would call the all out score-a-thon era. Parent would likely STILL be better than either goalie we saw in the first round last year. I'm pretty sure Lindros was 3rd in ppg until concussions made him a shell of what he was..

[JackStraw]

@Polaris922 - well, different people will give you there opinions on different eras, but I gave you actual stats. I don't know how that can be argued. As far as goaltending, the late '60s early '70s had Dryden, Esposito, Giacomin, Parent, Vachon... off the top of my head. I would stack those guys up against any group from any era. In the '60s you still had Plante, Glenn Hall, Terry Sawchuck (never saw him but many who did say he was the the best ever).

As for expansion, imo the most diluted the talent has been was during the '80s. You had a few rounds of NHL expansion plus the absorbing of the WHA. There were a good number of teams but at that point the league was still mostly Canadian. Americans were just getting started, and the Europeans didn't really come over in significant numbers until the '90s when the Olympics finally allowed professionals. In the early '70s, Orr's best years, there will still only 14 teams in the league. Obviously diluted somewhat compared to pre-1967 but not as much as the '80s in my opinion.

Also, just to add some context, keep in mind that Orr was playing junior hockey, against 20 year olds, when he was 14 years old. Expansion and NHL goaltending had nothing to do with that.

[radoran]

If you think Orr was bad defensively, you didn't see him play. In 74 Parent had a 1.89 GAA. not exactly what I would call the all out score-a-thon era. Parent would likely STILL be better than either goalie we saw in the first round last year. I'm pretty sure Lindros was 3rd in ppg until concussions made him a shell of what he was..

Orr wouldn't break the current lineup in Pittsburgh.

[flyercanuck]

@JackStraw

Not to mention when those 19 and 20 year olds decided they were going to put the fear of God into that 14 year old, they quickly learned he could take care of himself with his fists.

And then theres' 6'4 " Mario turtling when 5'8" 180 lb Al Conroy wanted a piece of him. I'm not expecting Mario to be a tough guy (which Orr was) but that was flat out embarrassing.

[flyerrod]

And then theres' 6'4 " Mario turtling when 5'8" 180 lb Al Conroy wanted a piece of him. I'm not expecting Mario to be a tough guy (which Orr was) but that was flat out embarrassing.

I can think of many incidents where Mario was positively Briere-like tough with his stick work......

[B21]

I can think of many incidents where Mario was positively Briere-like tough with his stick work......

Lucky for those players he wasn't Clarke-like tough with his stick work. Would have done some real damage.

[pensuck]

Mario could score but being that big he was even a bigger puzzy. At least Cindy and him have 2 things in common. They can both play and they both play like puzzies. It must be a Pitt thing. Lol

[B21]

Mario could score but being that big he was even a bigger puzzy. At least Cindy and him have 2 things in common. They can both play and they both play like puzzies. It must be a Pitt thing. Lol

Yeah - playing in an NHL game the day your chemotherapy ends. Real "puzzy".

Keep trolling....

[flyerrod]

Lucky for those players he wasn't Clarke-like tough with his stick work. Would have done some real damage.

I would be an outright liar if I were to disagree with that......Did you watch the Alumni game last year? He still is dangerous with the twig in his hand.

[pensuck]

@B21

Of course you had to throw the cancer thing in there. What I and another poster were getting at is that for his SIZE he played like a biatch.

Being a Pitt fan on a Flyers board who' s doing the trolling? Haha, you're pathetic. Especially bringing up the cancer card.

[doom88]

Yeah - playing in an NHL game the day your chemotherapy ends. Real "puzzy".

Keep trolling....

Pretty sure he got a standing O in Philly for that accomplishment. That's a big deal, but still is irrelevant for the topic of his type of play.

[mojo1917]

@Polaris922

bobby orr is kind of like pele or jack nickalas or bo jackson.

there was no one like him before and no one like him since.

as great a Mario was, and he was pretty great, he didn't revolutionize anything, rules weren't changed because of him, we don't look at hockey differently because of what he did...

He also had the misfortune of coming into the league during Gretzky's time, so he was constantly compared to 99, and never really got out from under WG's long shadow, because of the hodgkins and back issues.

I put him 3rd behind Orr and Gretzky and that's nothing to sneeze at.

as for the rest of you, i'm glad the new kids got to play in an winning atmosphere, losing sucks and is contagious, glenn falls is a poisonous **** hole that needs some lysol. So yes it sucks for our draft position but i'm glad the guys who were languishing in the A on a ****ty team got the opportunity to play in NHL games against good teams that were not playing out the string and acquitted themselves well. i think we still get a really good player in from this draft who will help the team long term.

this will be an interesting off season for us for sure.

[pensuck]

@doom88

Believe it or not I was at his last game at the spectrum. Everyone and I mean everyone gave him a loud standing ovation at the end. He saluted the crowd and went into the locker. It was pretty cool. It helped that we won of course.

[B21]

@B21

Of course you had to throw the cancer thing in there. What I and another poster were getting at is that for his SIZE he played like a biatch.

Being a Pitt fan on a Flyers board who' s doing the trolling? Haha, you're pathetic. Especially bringing up the cancer card.

Well it's relevant when talking about how much of a 'puzzy' one is. I've never had to go through chemo (knock on wood) but from what I read, it's not fun. Probably hard to play hockey the day it ends.

But still - Mario is a 'puzzy' in your eyes. God forbid a guy with size not play physical. If that's the case, he's labeled a 'puzzy'. That's the Flyer mentality. The same mentality that has you approaching 40 years sans Cup on top of having arguably the worst farm system out there. It's why you took a Laughton over a Maatta and then try and talk yourself into the pick making sense. It's why you sign pylon after pylon even as the league evolves around you (Derian Hatcher anyone?). Better yet, it's why you draft a Mike Ricci over a Jagr. Now that I think about it, orange is the appropriate color for the Flyers. Pylon orange.

It's why so long as Ed Snider owns your team and Bobby Clarke has input - you will never win a Cup. Lucky for you Ed is in his 80's. Looks healthy, though.

PS - This is a hockey forum. Not a Flyers forum. This thread as you can see is now in the 'Around the NHL' section. Besides, not like we haven't seen you trolling over in the Pens section...and with a handle like 'pensuck' to boot. I guess that lecture didn't work.

So if you want to keep slinging mud - I can stoop to that level with the best of them, too. Or you can stick to intelligent hockey talk. Keep trolling at your own peril.

[B21]

I would be an outright liar if I were to disagree with that......Did you watch the Alumni game last year? He still is dangerous with the twig in his hand.

Nah - missed that...but not surprised.

[flyercanuck]

Well it's relevant when talking about how much of a 'puzzy' one is. I've never had to go through chemo (knock on wood) but from what I read, it's not fun. Probably hard to play hockey the day it ends.

But still - Mario is a 'puzzy' in your eyes. God forbid a guy with size not play physical. If that's the case, he's labeled a 'puzzy'. That's the Flyer mentality. The same mentality that has you approaching 40 years sans Cup on top of having arguably the worst farm system out there. It's why you took a Laughton over a Maatta and then try and talk yourself into the pick making sense. It's why you sign pylon after pylon even as the league evolves around you (Derian Hatcher anyone?). Better yet, it's why you draft a Mike Ricci over a Jagr. Now that I think about it, orange is the appropriate color for the Flyers. Pylon orange.

It's why so long as Ed Snider owns your team and Bobby Clarke has input - you will never win a Cup. Lucky for you Ed is in his 80's. Looks healthy, though.

PS - This is a hockey forum. Not a Flyers forum. This thread as you can see is now in the 'Around the NHL' section. Besides, not like we haven't seen you trolling over in the Pens section...and with a handle like 'pensuck' to boot. I guess that lecture didn't work.

So if you want to keep slinging mud - I can stoop to that level with the best of them, too. Or you can stick to intelligent hockey talk. Keep trolling at your own peril.

At the time I thought it was a bad pick. Having watched Laughton evolve this year, and Maatta plateau, I'm not so sure it IS a bad pick. Laughton could very well be playing in the NHL this time next year. I'd bet a lot of money Maatta isn't. It's a lot tougher figuring out where an 18 year old defenceman is headed than an 18 year old forward. And let's face it, we won't know who's better for at least 5 years. We surely don't presently.

As for the Ricci pick, it was well known he likely would have went 1st overall the year before. Jagr went 5th that year and ended up being the best of the lot. Heck Nedved went 2nd. Ricci was one of the players Quebec coveted in the Lindros trade.

[B21]

@flyercanuck

That's an easy argument with 20/20 hindsight. Even you wanted Maatta over Laughton. If Laughton is in the NHL and Maatta isn't, it's because of what's in front of them on the organizational depth chart. Switch organizations and I can make the same argument.

[flyercanuck]

@B21

I know I wanted Maatta. But like I said, Laughtons development has made him look a lot better. At this point he's passed Maatta IMO. That doesn't mean he'll be better in a year, or in 5 years. But right now Laughton looks like he could play on a lot of NHL teams. I don't think Maatta is ready for that. Of course Dmen usually aren't at this age. (neither are forwards.). And it's not like Philly isn't deep at the forward position. Laughton has just come along really well.

A year ago I thought the Jackets had a real player coming up in Boone Jenner (I still do) He plays on Laughtons team in junior. In the playoffs there was no comparison between the two who looked more NHL ready. And Jenner is a year older and has 2 inches and 20 lbs on Laughton. One guys motor just never stops.

[pensuck]

@B21

U mad bro? Hahaha. Cheer up, life is awesome when you're able to open you eyes:)

[B21]

@B21

U mad bro? Hahaha. Cheer up, life is awesome when you're able to open you eyes:)

I responded but apparently because I said the "Flyers stink" it was deleted. Nice too see the fair and balanced policing (rolls eyes).

[Polaris922]

I responded but apparently because I said the "Flyers stink" it was deleted. Nice too see the fair and balanced policing (rolls eyes).

We all know Pensuck knows nothing about hockey. I don't know why you bothered. Lol

[ruxpin]

You're all wrong. The greatest hockey player ever was Juri Dopita. He just wasn't in the NHL when he did it.

[ruxpin]

With all due respect to Orr and Howe, for me it's a Gretzky vs. Lemieux discussion.

I didn't particularly like Gretzky when he played, although since he was in the western conference and hockey on cable was nearly non-existent I didn't get to see him play nearly enough to "dislike" him. I respected Gretzky as a great player but I think I had a bit more respect for Lemieux. To me, Lemieux had a little more to overcome. Whereas Gretzky played in a city that was all about hockey, Lemieux had to introduce hockey to his city. Gretzky had Lowe, Fuhr, Coffee, Messier, Kuri, etc. etc. etc. Lemieux had...um....wait...um...what the hell did Lemieux have? The Pens kind of started with him and built around him. And then, of course, there was Lemieux's health.

I think it's difficult--and a bit disingenuous--to include a phrase like "if he had stayed healthy" into a discussion of "greatest."

Is it Lemieux's fault he got ill? Of course not. But part of the criteria for being great should be durability and longevity. Gretzky beats Lemieux there.

If you want to argue about innate ability, you'll have a fairly subjective argument either way. Same thing with the "obstacles" argument I belabored above.

But when it comes down to it,Gretzky simply had better numbers and for a longer period of time. He also has 4 rings to Lemieux's 2. For this reason, I have to begrudgingly give my vote to Gretzky.

[DaGreatGazoo]

If Laughton is in the NHL and Maatta isn't, it's because of what's in front of them on the organizational depth chart

Huh? Maybe I missed your point, but if Laughton is with the Flyers next year, it's cause he deserves to be-not due to some lack of depth. I can't say much about Matta, but the Pens do have a lot of depth there, so I get where you are going with him.

I think the Flyers have organizational depth at center. They hoard them like the Isles hoard goalies.

[radoran]

Is it Lemieux's fault he got ill? Of course not.

You mean they didn't ask Mario to get cancer?

They hoard them like the Isles hoard goalies.

I've heard that...