Who's The Greatest of Them All?

[flyercanuck]

With all due respect to Orr and Howe, for me it's a Gretsky vs. Lemieux discussion.

I didn't particularly like Gretsky when he played, although since he was in the western conference and hockey on cable was nearly non-existent I didn't get to see him play nearly enough to "dislike" him. I respected Gretsky as a great player but I think I had a bit more respect for Lemieux. To me, Lemieux had a little more to overcome. Whereas Gretsky played in a city that was all about hockey, Lemieux had to introduce hockey to his city. Gretsky had Lowe, Fuhr, Coffee, Messier, Kuri, etc. etc. etc. Lemieux had...um....wait...um...what the hell did Lemieux have? The Pens kind of started with him and built around him. And then, of course, there was Lemieux's health.

I'll stand by Orr as the best.I can picture 5 Gretzkys or 5 Lemieuxs cowering against 5 Orrs.

But in 2nd...

You realize Gretzky came in on a WHA team. The 2nd leading scorer in his first NHL season was Blair MacDonald. Then Stan Weir. Brett Callighen. Dave Lumley. Did Blair MacDonald score 46 goals because he was so great he made Gretzky better? Blair B-L-A-I-R MacDonald M-A-C-D-O-N-A-L-D. He scored 45 goals the rest of his CAREER after being taken off gretzkys line. Messier wasn't Messier, Coffey wasn't Coffey and Kurri wasn't Kurri until AFTER Gretzky was Gretzky. It wasn't like he was thrown into a team of allstars. They won ONE playoff series in their first 4 years . When Gretzky broke the NHL record for most assists and most points (for the first time) he had more than twice as many points as his next teammate. Coffey had 32 points that year.Messier 63. And Fuhr? I thought he was ok, but hardly great.

And Gretzky was also the greatest ambassador the game ever had.

Edited May 4, 2013 by flyercanuck

[ruxpin]

I'll stand by Orr as the best.I can picture 5 Gretzkys or 5 Lemieuxs cowering against 5 Orrs.

But in 2nd...

You realize Gretzky came in on a WHA team. The 2nd leading scorer in his first NHL season was Blair MacDonald. Then Stan Weir. Brett Callighen. Dave Lumley. Did Blair MacDonald score 46 goals because he was so great he made Gretzky better? Blair B-L-A-I-R MacDonald M-A-C-D-O-N-A-L-D. He scored 45 goals the rest of his CAREER after being taken off gretzkys line. Messier wasn't Messier, Coffey wasn't Coffey and Kurri wasn't Kurri until AFTER Gretzky was Gretzky. It wasn't like he was thrown into a team of allstars. They won ONE playoff series in their first 4 years . When Gretzky broke the NHL record for most assists and most points (for the first time) he had more than twice as many points as his next teammate. Coffey had 32 points that year.Messier 63. And Fuhr? I thought he was ok, but hardly great.

And Gretzky was also the greatest ambassador the game ever had.

What would you have said if I didn't say Gretzky was the greatest?

First of all, of course I realize about the WHA.

I guess I wasn't trying to say Gretzky walked into an already established team, but the Oilers did do a better job of having something around him. Of course Messier wasn't Messier yet. Both Gretz and Messier were only 18. Lowe was only 20. Kuri, Coffee, Fuhr, et al. weren't there yet. That Oilers team was admittedly in a piss poor division and got into the playoffs with the worst record of any playoff team that year, but they did get in. The Penguins in Mario's first year? Second to last.

I guess all I was saying is that Gretzky started out with a better club than Mario and his team in his early years had a better arch than Mario. One could argue one of two ways with this this: 1) The Oilers had a better arch than the Pens because Gretz was better or 2) The Oilers had a better arch than the Pens because Edmonton did a better job of quickly getting people around Gretzky than the Pens did around Mario. I personally think it's equal parts column A and column B, but I'd entertain any argument that wants to say its more of one column than the other; so long as there's acknowledgment of both parts.

Because really, I understand that the 79-80 Oilers were not packed with all-stars, but also take a look at the 84-85 Pens roster. As forgettable as most of the 79-80 Oilers roster was, I'd take it over the Pens 84-85 roster.

If you want to put Orr first, that's fine. But Gretzky is still my #2 (I think oddly we agree there despite the manufactured argument). Lemieux #3, Howe #4, Dopita #5.

My own list, I'd put Gretzky #1, Lemieux #2, Orr #3, Howe #4, Dopita #5

[flyercanuck]

@ruxpin

LOL - I don't know how but I missed your closing sentence and read it as you'd picked Lemieux over Gretzky.

[Sockeye]

Wow! This is kinda like asking everyone who their favorite musician is, or what their favorite song is, but for me personally, at age 60 and being a native of Detroit, there can be no doubt.

In his youth, my eldest son (now 34) admired and wanted to emulate Steve Yzerman, but Yzerman and I, and a veritable legion of others across North America were raised in awe of the incomparable Gordie Howe. And frankly, given his own incredible performance over the years, one could almost include Stevie Y's name in this same discussion.

However, as an aging, opinionated old man, I find little comparisons to be drawn between Gretsky or Lemieux, and the likes of a Gordie Howe, and that's not to say that I don't respect and deeply admire the skills of those first two gentlemen. Yes, they were natural goal-scorers and record-breakers, but Gordie was more than that - Gordie was an 'old school' (full-service) hockey player. For me, trying to compare or "rank" them, is like trying to compare Pavel Bure with Brendan Shanahan or Steven Stamkos with Peter Forsberg. Its a complete disconnect - there's no meaningful comparisons to be made.

[Kings Redeem LA]

On 4/27/2013 at 11:25 AM, flyercanuck said:

@Polaris922

That Lemieux is greatest? Ya.

I put Orr at #1. Gretzky at #2 and Howe at #3. Then Mario. Put 5 Orrs on the ice against 5 Gretzkys, or Howes, or Lemieuxs and I'll put my money on Orr all day long.

 

That's what's nuts about Orr. Despite the way injury shortened his career 

and hampered some seasons, he's still arguably the greatest.    

 

Nowadays, if I'm picking any one player to begin a franchise, it's Bobby.   

[BluPuk]

I don't usually chime in on these "greatest of all time" debates, but what the hell it's the middle of summer.....

 

For me it would be 

1. Orr
2. Gretzky
3. Lemieux
4. Dionne
5. Any one of a dozen other players (including Howe).

These are the players I enjoyed watching. Especially Orr. I don't use stats, just my eyes.

 

[WordsOfWisdom]

Something to ponder:

 

People are always quick to point out Gretzky's advantage in points compared to Lemieux, and don't seem to care that Lemieux had injury problems and battled cancer. When it comes to Orr, people are willing to overlook the fact that Ray Bourque and Paul Coffey have double the points that Orr had. 

 

Orr manages to stay #1 on most lists despite his knee problems, but Lemieux always seems to be punished for his lymphoma.

 

 

[JR Ewing]

On 8/14/2017 at 6:52 AM, thenewestlights said:

 

That's what's nuts about Orr. Despite the way injury shortened his career 

and hampered some seasons, he's still arguably the greatest.    

 

Nowadays, if I'm picking any one player to begin a franchise, it's Bobby.   

 

Yes and no. You spend the first 10 years establishing your value, and then the next 10 padding the bill.

[Kings Redeem LA]

On 8/18/2017 at 9:22 AM, JR Ewing said:

 

Yes and no. You spend the first 10 years establishing your value, and then the next 10 padding the bill.

 

My Bobby would have a healthy career.  

 

But even the Bobby who didn't still makes a tempting top pick. 

 

  

 

 

[Buffalo Rick]

On 4/27/2013 at 1:25 PM, flyercanuck said:

@Polaris922

That Lemieux is greatest? Ya.

I put Orr at #1. Gretzky at #2 and Howe at #3. Then Mario. Put 5 Orrs on the ice against 5 Gretzkys, or Howes, or Lemieuxs and I'll put my money on Orr all day long.

I agree with Flyercanuck this time and it might be the first time ever.  His order is dead on.  

1  Orr  ( I saw every one on the list play and he gets my vote)

2 Wayne, and arguably you could not argue with anyone that puts him at number 1

3 Howe, Mr Hockey, far greater than he now gets credit for because he came from the older era.  But do not forget, when there were fewer teams, it was tougher to get to the NHL

4  Super Mario?  His career if it had been longer he might have been higher.  He was an unstoppable force when in his prime.

5  Mark Messier

 

6 a toss up between many.  Bossy, Trottier, Beleveua, Maurice Richard, Gilbert Perrault, Rick Martin, Bobby Hull, Marcell Dionne

 

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, Hockey Junkie said:

I agree with Flyercanuck this time and it might be the first time ever.  His order is dead on.  

1  Orr  ( I saw every one on the list play and he gets my vote)

2 Wayne, and arguably you could not argue with anyone that puts him at number 1

3 Howe, Mr Hockey, far greater than he now gets credit for because he came from the older era.  But do not forget, when there were fewer teams, it was tougher to get to the NHL

4  Super Mario?  His career if it had been longer he might have been higher.  He was an unstoppable force when in his prime.

5  Mark Messier

 

6 a toss up between many.  Bossy, Trottier, Beleveua, Maurice Richard, Gilbert Perrault, Rick Martin, Bobby Hull, Marcell Dionne

 

 

Ok, I change my mind.