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The KHL problem


yave1964

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@yave1964

I've personally never been to Russia. But i get the impression there's a huge difference in Germany or Quebec, and say Cherepovets Prague. Imagine waking up to evenings like this...?

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Bratislava

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Riga

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The real question is when does Cheperovets relocate to Berlin?

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Yeah, exactly.

So what i don't understand how big are the arenas in Russia they are playing in frontof 20,000+? How can they afford to play the players all this money if they don't have lots of people to play in front of??? Not saying they don't i just assume they can't be the size of the rinks in NA...right?

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So what i don't understand how big are the arenas in Russia they are playing in frontof 20,000+? How can they afford to play the players all this money if they don't have lots of people to play in front of??? Not saying they don't i just assume they can't be the size of the rinks in NA...right?

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph_season.php?lid=KHL2009&sid=2013

Because professional sports has very little to do with "profitability." These guys have deep pockets and are doing it more for personal and "Russian" pride than anything else.

That said, if I look at these numbers - like the Prague and Bratislava, for example - I see opportunity to relocate (responsibly) into Western Europe.

@radoran

Not knocking playing in Europe at all. I know plenty of people who've done it and loved it.

Well, I think that's where the "Continential" part of their name is coming from. I don't believe the future of the league is in Cherepovets and Vladivostok.

Jagr did spend three years in Omsk, which I know mostly as a Monty Python reference, but they have twice as many people as Winnipeg and are roughly the size of Calgary.

Omsk

for%20inside%20the%20story,%20Omsk%20river%20beach.jpg

Winnipeg

mb-stboniface-121024_852x480_2296327439.jpg

Calgary

Eastlake-435.jpg

:ph34r:

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http://www.hockeydb....HL2009&sid=2013

Because professional sports has very little to do with "profitability." These guys have deep pockets and are doing it more for personal and "Russian" pride than anything else.

Which isn't a sustainable model. The league would have to change substantially if it actually wants to compete with the NHL long term. I'm sure that plenty of players are wary of the fact that money in Russia is far from guaranteed.

Edited by Haliax
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A BIG NAME NORTH AMERICAN BOY WILL SIGN AS A FREE AGENT IN RUSSIA.

Bobby Sanguinetti signed on with the KHL yesterday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NAILED IT WOE WAS US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by OccamsRazor
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Which isn't a sustainable model. The league would have to change substantially if it actually wants to compete with the NHL long term. I'm sure that plenty of players are wary of the fact that money in Russia is far from guaranteed.

It's exactly the model that the NHL uses.

Ted Leonsis has "never made a profit" on the Washington Capitals.

In Edmonton they sell out every night and "still can't make a profit"

The Coyotes are in receivership - the league, financed by all other teams, is operating the franchise. The Devils - playing as a successful franchise in arguably the biggest media market in the world - are almost bankrupt.

We just had the third lockout in the last two decades because the owners claim they can't make money doing what they are doing.

In the KHL they have a lot more direct control over players because there's no real "union" and, honestly, no real threat of having one. But the top players are certainly in a better position to make demands and have them met.

There's also a reason they have the special exemption for players coming back from the NHL on their salary cap - because the owners are crazy enough to do something like offer a player $13 million this year plus a salary and then $13 million next year plus a salary.

How can they ever make that work? :ph34r:

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While I agree with Yave's general direction on this, some questions remain. I think inevitably, they will become an increasing threat. I do think eventually North American's will defect there for short term, big money contracts.

Here is my problem, and I don't think it's been addressed in this thread. Alexi Cheraponov. The young man who died playing in the KHL due to a lack of a difibulator at the rink. It may or may not have been addressed, but the black cloud remains.....if a player has a life threatening injury, will they recieve the same treatement that would have in North America. I think the KHL has some work to do, both in terms of infrastucture and public relations. If there is any health questions, even a 1% chance the players might not get the life saving treatment they need, the North American guys will balk....AND the parents, who still have control over the kids, ie McKinnon etc will simply not let their kids go over there for that specific reason. Are the planes looked after the same as North America, to avoid another tragedy like we seen a few years ago with McCrimmon and company?? These are questions that loom large, and is a specific black mark (deserved or not) to North Americans making the jump.

Like I said, I believe Yave's general premise is correct, they are a legit threat, and will continue to be going forward...but there is questions that need to be addressed also.

I don't think the safety concerns will stop Russians from making the jump, they love their country and if they can make millions more to play there we will see more and more defections to the KHL.

The guys at the top of the KHL, are actually BILLIONAIRES, much richer than any North American owners could ever dream of. Their money comes directly from Oil, and it is a staggering amount of capital they are working with. Then, there is the actual patriotism of the Russian Government that needs to be considered. They consider this a us against them type of thing, and I have already read reports of the actual Russian Govt offering to double the money of players will to come home. This is a legit threat and goes a lot deeper than the KHL vs NHL....this is nationalistic pride at stake here, a factor many don't properly take into account when assessing the true threat that the KHL poses.

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Another factor, maybe not as important, but worth mentioning is the true infancy of the KHL. The play is not even close to that of the NHL, the skill level is far below our skill level. Patrick Theorsen, our one balled wonder, has 3 lifetime pts in the NHL, yet has been a top 10 scorer in the KHL for several years, this one player alone shows the true lack of talent over there. I do believe it will get better, but when Theorsen is a top 10 pt producer, that tells me all I need to know, the play there is truely inferior to the NHL at the moment. I think as time goes by, the gap will close, but a young prospect going there will not develop the same as if he were playing against NHL players. This and the safety concerns combine to assure that you will not see many young guns flying the coop in the next few years.

THe one thing they have going for them is the almighty buck. The big problem is the current CBA only allows a player to make 10 mill or so maximum, this is chump change for the KHL, so therin lies the true threat, a talented player can double, maybe even triple his income....so that to me is a legit threat.

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Another factor, maybe not as important, but worth mentioning is the true infancy of the KHL. The play is not even close to that of the NHL, the skill level is far below our skill level. Patrick Theorsen, our one balled wonder, has 3 lifetime pts in the NHL, yet has been a top 10 scorer in the KHL for several years, this one player alone shows the true lack of talent over there. I do believe it will get better, but when Theorsen is a top 10 pt producer, that tells me all I need to know, the play there is truely inferior to the NHL at the moment. I think as time goes by, the gap will close, but a young prospect going there will not develop the same as if he were playing against NHL players. This and the safety concerns combine to assure that you will not see many young guns flying the coop in the next few years.

THe one thing they have going for them is the almighty buck. The big problem is the current CBA only allows a player to make 10 mill or so maximum, this is chump change for the KHL, so therin lies the true threat, a talented player can double, maybe even triple his income....so that to me is a legit threat.

We lose in a bidding war if all that matters is money. We are handcuffed by a salary cap, they are not. If we raise the cap, the cost gets passed on to the already overcharged fans. I only get to abut ten games a year, not because that is all I want to go to but because that is all I can afford. Raising the cap or eliminating the cap altogether to take on the Ruskies could be the death knell for quite a few small market teams that are struggling enough already.

That said I know I have presented worst case scenarios but I was right about losing a Russian superstar in his prime (Truthfully I thought it would be Pavel) to the rival league. Keep this thread in mind the KHL is growing while our league is stagnating. I just hope we can deal with h threat.

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It's exactly the model that the NHL uses.

We just had the third lockout in the last two decades because the owners claim they can't make money doing what they are doing.

In the KHL they have a lot more direct control over players because there's no real "union" and, honestly, no real threat of having one. But the top players are certainly in a better position to make demands and have them met.

There's also a reason they have the special exemption for players coming back from the NHL on their salary cap - because the owners are crazy enough to do something like offer a player $13 million this year plus a salary and then $13 million next year plus a salary.

I don't really think that it is the same model. The NHL still operates with the goal of making money. Otherwise, as you mentioned, there would not have been lockouts in order to try and reverse the poor standing of the less profitable teams. We've seen the last decade that the NHL has had a keen interest in moving towards a system with more parity. Obviously with the hope that more "non traditional" teams will become more competitive and develop stronger fan bases. This is a model that is still in its infancy, but overall the progress has been positive. There are still teams struggling, and that could be a result of poor conditions of the economy as much as anything, but league revenues grow every year. The KHL model seems to be that a few teams have "bucket loads" of money to spend, but overall there is a general lack of funds. That is what I see as not being sustainable. They need to try and better support the teams on the bottom.

And I'm not sure that the lack of a union is really a positive in favour of the KHL. It may give them more control over costs, but the lack of a body to represent the players is certainly not going to work in favour of them drawing talent that isn't Russian. These are the types of changes that will be necessary if the league hopes to succeed long term. Overall, I hope that the KHL does become competitive, because competition is always a good thing. I just think that they have a long road ahead of them.

Edited by Haliax
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@yave1964 I can really see Ovechkin going over there before his playing time is done. The one thing is, the KHL has to keep it civil or risk the International Ice Hockey Federation (forget their actual name, lol) banning them from international play. So, there can be no poaching of players under contract etc. Like I said, I agree with your premise, there is just a lot of question marks going forward. I don't think the NHL is in a positon to make any internal adjustments to fend off the KHL, they just have to hope the flow of players does not create a real problem.

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@phlfly Something that wasn't addressed here either that I'm just wondering about. If a player like Kovi moves back to Russia with all his millions (or worse yet, say an NA player like you guys have mentioned), what is the threat on his or his family's life, being such a disparity between the classes there? Yes, he has to have the 20 ft. steel wall armoury, a battalion of bodyguards on guard 24/7, escorts everywhere they step foot, a pentagon-like defense system built into the house, etc....who would want to live day in & day out in fear of your safety & especially, your wife & children's safety? What's to stop thugs from attempting kidnappings & holding them for ransom? Is this a real possibility?

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who would want to live day in & day out in fear of your safety & especially, your wife & children's safety? What's to stop thugs from attempting

That's what I was thinking. The stories I've heard about life in the former Soviet Union match phifly's. Also, he has the added credibility of having been there and done that. If you're already a millionaire, why would you risk your families safety or at the very least, their comfort for another million or so? I agree that the KHL will compete for players, but it has lots of drawbacks to overcome.

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Here is my problem, and I don't think it's been addressed in this thread. Alexi Cheraponov. The young man who died playing in the KHL due to a lack of a difibulator at the rink. It may or may not have been addressed, but the black cloud remains.....if a player has a life threatening injury, will they recieve the same treatement that would have in North America. I think the KHL has some work to do, both in terms of infrastucture and public relations. If there is any health questions, even a 1% chance the players might not get the life saving treatment they need, the North American guys will balk....AND the parents, who still have control over the kids, ie McKinnon etc will simply not let their kids go over there for that specific reason. Are the planes looked after the same as North America, to avoid another tragedy like we seen a few years ago with McCrimmon and company?? These are questions that loom large, and is a specific black mark (deserved or not) to North Americans making the jump.

There is this death in the KHL last year also.

Russian Dmitri Uchaykin, a forward with HC Ertis-Pavlodar of the Kazakhstan League, has died after sustaining a hit to the head in a playoff game. He was 33.

Uchaykin was knocked unconscious after being hit by Donatas Kumeliuskas and arrived at hospital in a coma. Uchaykin passed away hours later with a cerebral hemorrhage.

Uchaykin He leaves behind a wife and daughter.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/50949-Russian-player-Dmitri-Uchaykin-dies-after-being-hit-in-head.html

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@hf101 Sad to hear, yet another chink in the KHL armour. Would he have passed anyways, who knows, but the black cloud hanging over the KHL is not gonna disperse any time soon.

The biggest worry to me about the KHL is the expansion of the league much beyond Russia. Italy was to have a team starting this fall, not sure if it panned out. And Jokerit Helsinki is expected to join the KHL for the 2014-2015 season, after prominent businessman Gennady Timchenko purchased Hartwall Arena where the team plays. Timchenko’s net worth is estimated at $14 billion. If the KHL league grows to a Eastern Euopean World league then the NHL could have some trouble retaining the best European players.

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I don't really think that it is the same model. The NHL still operates with the goal of making money. Otherwise, as you mentioned, there would not have been lockouts in order to try and reverse the poor standing of the less profitable teams.

Was this last lockout really about "reversing the poor standing of the less profitable teams?" If you listen to the NHL, practically no team is profitable. Virtually every team has another business venture propping them up on the back end. "Hockey operations" is not where money is made or lost.

They claim the lockouts are about profitability, but then you have owners like Ted Leonsis who claiir they have never made a profit while owning their teams.

That's 14 years - from the guy that gave Jagr a $14M contract and signed Ovechkin to his mega-deal. If he can't make a profit - if Daryl Katz can't make money selling out every game in Edmonton (even the Flyers routinely claim they need to make the second round of the playoffs to "break even") - who does?

Small-market, untraditional hockey markets? Nashville just shelled out $26M in signing bonuses in a year for Weber to play for them. Tampa Bay just spent $32M in one year to have a player not play for them.

The owners have gotten an effective cap on top salaries around the $8M level for the past 15 years (with a few pre-lockout exceptions) and via Malkin/Crosby/Ovechkin/Giroux for the next 8-10.

That's pretty impressive (and likely the real target of their "profitability" efforts - stopping themselves from making stupid decisions).

There is no dispute that the KHL has a long way to go. But if they continue to grow, expand responsibly into Western Europe and even have the same economic model as today, they will be competition for the Swede, Finn, Czech, Slovak and Russian players who reinvigorated the NHL game in the 1990s. And they will have enough money to upset the NHL's old boy network of free agency and draft restrictions even for Canadian farmboys.

No one would be saying that top line NHL talent in the prime of their careers might decide to go over to the KHL rightnow, today.

If, of course, that hadn't just happened.

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That's what I was thinking. The stories I've heard about life in the former Soviet Union match phifly's. Also, he has the added credibility of having been there and done that. If you're already a millionaire, why would you risk your families safety or at the very least, their comfort for another million or so? I agree that the KHL will compete for players, but it has lots of drawbacks to overcome.

Again, it is ignored that there are KHL teams in Prague. Bratislava, Riga, Zagreb...

Again, it is ignored that Jagr just played in freaking Omsk - the "Buffalo of Siberia."

The "stories" out of the ex-Soviet Union in many cases are a decade old (I could be wrong, but I believe phlfly's been out of country for longer than that).

The point is that the obstacles are being overcome. That the league is obviously becoming a threat and that that threat is only likely to increase.

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Again, it is ignored that there are KHL teams in Prague. Bratislava, Riga, Zagreb...

Again, it is ignored that Jagr just played in freaking Omsk - the "Buffalo of Siberia."

The "stories" out of the ex-Soviet Union in many cases are a decade old (I could be wrong, but I believe phlfly's been out of country for longer than that).

The point is that the obstacles are being overcome. That the league is obviously becoming a threat and that that threat is only likely to increase.

Thank you. That was my point exactly, glad you articulated it so much better than me.
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Was this last lockout really about "reversing the poor standing of the less profitable teams?" If you listen to the NHL, practically no team is profitable. Virtually every team has another business venture propping them up on the back end. "Hockey operations" is not where money is made or lost.

There is no dispute that the KHL has a long way to go. But if they continue to grow, expand responsibly into Western Europe and even have the same economic model as today, they will be competition for the Swede, Finn, Czech, Slovak and Russian players who reinvigorated the NHL game in the 1990s. And they will have enough money to upset the NHL's old boy network of free agency and draft restrictions even for Canadian farmboys.

I'm not sure what the lockout was about if it not to try and make the league more profitable overall. I've not paid close enough attention to individual teams claims about their fiscal positions. But I find it hard to accept any owners claim last year, when they had real incentive to claim they were losing money as leverage against the PA. If I remember correctly just a couple years ago 2/3rds of teams were making money. That is less than fantastic, but it isn't the picture that has been painted recently.

Overall though, I don't think our opinion on the KHL is that different. I see it as a threat to the NHL, but certainly not immediately. And I think the further west they move (out of Russia), the more accountability in terms of how teams are operated will be demanded. Along with that, I would assume that there will be some type of push for some sort of PA. It will be interesting to see how things develop, but I don't see it as being a horrible thing for hockey fans. If the KHL grows and brings more exposure for hockey, I see that as a win. You'll see countries invest more in their hockey programs which will hopefully result in more high end talent developed in what are currently less traditional hockey countries.

End of the day though, I think the NHL will always be the top professional hockey league in the world.

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End of the day though, I think the NHL will always be the top professional hockey league in the world.

For the foreseeable future, certainly. But no one really thought the ABA was going to challenge the NBA and few really thought the AFL was a "threat" to the NFL - until the Jets won the game they set up specifically to show that the AFL was inferior (The Super Bowl).

It's a global stage and "World" championships will start to actually be more "world" oriented. The provincial attitudes we have in North America - where the winner of North America is the "world" champion - will certainly change.

I think the effort that should be made is for the KHL to appreciate the importance of the Stanley Cup.

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For the foreseeable future, certainly. But no one really thought the ABA was going to challenge the NBA and few really thought the AFL was a "threat" to the NFL - until the Jets won the game they set up specifically to show that the AFL was inferior (The Super Bowl).

It's a global stage and "World" championships will start to actually be more "world" oriented. The provincial attitudes we have in North America - where the winner of North America is the "world" champion - will certainly change.

I think the effort that should be made is for the KHL to appreciate the importance of the Stanley Cup.

I didn't know that about either the AFL or ABA. Though would that not be closer to the NHL and WHA than to KHL? Not that it matters all that much. We'll see how things develop, it should be an interesting decade or so. :)

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