Meszaros Still on IR

[Howie58]

Greetings:

I just went to the Flyers's website and noted that Andej M is still on the injured reserve list.

http://flyers.nhl.com/club/roster.htm

If not mistaken, Homer first said he should be cleared at the end of June, then it was the end of July.

I think his days of playing with Flyers...or anywhere for that matter, may be over. That would knock another 4.5 mill of the cap. Obviously, for his sake and the team's, I hope my assessment is off. We saw what he can do if healthy. But "if" is the operative term here...and I really wonder. CP may have company in the rafters.

Best,

Howie

[murraycraven]

Greetings Howie...

This whole situation seems to be headed the LTIR route. I hope that Mezz does play again bc he is a very good defenseman. More than anything he could help a team if healthy but that is the major question... An the man stay healthy?

As always a great post and I hope all is good in Howie world.

.

prost!

[Howie58]

Greetings Howie...

This whole situation seems to be headed the LTIR route. I hope that Mezz does play again bc he is a very good defenseman. More than anything he could help a team if healthy but that is the major question... An the man stay healthy?

As always a great post and I hope all is good in Howie world.

.

prost!

MurrayC: It is has been a busy summer and the school year approaches. I hope to get up to Medford or Atlantic City for my brother's 60th over Labor Day. By that time we may know more about this and other roster changes. I am on the wagon...doctor's order due some neuralgia...but I will accept the toast anyhow.

Peace,

Howie

[radoran]

the problem is that LTIR cap relief doesn't give you relief now. They still have Pronger and Meszaros at full cap hit (with a 10% off season exemption).

This is why they have not signed Gagne, for example.

They also have to have already spent to the limit of the cap to get any relief from eitherPronger or Meszaros.

[jammer2]

@radoran It seems as if the bonus money players get will no longer count against the cap to start a season off. That would save us a few million on the Schenn deal, at least I think it would.

[Howie58]

the problem is that LTIR cap relief doesn't give you relief now. They still have Pronger and Meszaros at full cap hit (with a 10% off season exemption).

This is why they have not signed Gagne, for example.

They also have to have already spent to the limit of the cap to get any relief from eitherPronger or Meszaros.

Rad:

Thanks for the explanation. That suggests we need to make a trade or two one way or the other, as others have suggested. I hope we don't resort to "Baumgartnering" at the beginning of the season to get in compliance.

Peace,

Howie

[OccamsRazor]

Greetings:

I just went to the Flyers's website and noted that Andej M is still on the injured reserve list.

http://flyers.nhl.com/club/roster.htm

If not mistaken, Homer first said he should be cleared at the end of June, then it was the end of July.

I think his days of playing with Flyers...or anywhere for that matter, may be over. That would knock another 4.5 mill of the cap. Obviously, for his sake and the team's, I hope my assessment is off. We saw what he can do if healthy. But "if" is the operative term here...and I really wonder. CP may have company in the rafters.

Best,

Howie

Sounds like he is pulling a Danny Briere remember him getting hurt before the trade dead line and the conveniently getting healthy after it passes...just a thought cause he should know if he reads the news and what not as soon as he is healthy he is gone, has to to clear cap space....

[Jmdodgesrt4]

I'm not sure they need to make trades. Looking over their roster they have 13 forwards and 10 dmen. Including Laughton at 1.1 mil. If they add gagne to something like 2 mil they are over the cap by 4 million. Adding gagne gives them 14 forwards. If they send back laughton they are down to 3 mil over. Sending down bourdon and gervias at a combined 1.4 mil leaves them over the limit at 1.6 million. If they can slide that bonus money of 2.8 million they will have 1.2 in actual space and not needed ltir pronger or mez.

[AJgoal]

Howie,

I wouldn't put too much stock into what the roster says in the offseason about IR.

They also have to have already spent to the limit of the cap to get any relief from eitherPronger or Meszaros.

Not exactly, but they won't get the maximum relief if they're not at the cap limit. They'd get ~2.9 in relief for Pronger if they were 2 million under when they place him on LTIR, for example.

I'm not sure they need to make trades. Looking over their roster they have 13 forwards and 10 dmen. Including Laughton at 1.1 mil. If they add gagne to something like 2 mil they are over the cap by 4 million. Adding gagne gives them 14 forwards. If they send back laughton they are down to 3 mil over. Sending down bourdon and gervias at a combined 1.4 mil leaves them over the limit at 1.6 million. If they can slide that bonus money of 2.8 million they will have 1.2 in actual space and not needed ltir pronger or mez.

They have to make moves to get cap compliant, but a trade isn't necessary as of right now. However, some of the moves involve risk, because they have very few players that are waiver exempt at the moment.

[OccamsRazor]

I'm not sure they need to make trades. Looking over their roster they have 13 forwards and 10 dmen. Including Laughton at 1.1 mil. If they add gagne to something like 2 mil they are over the cap by 4 million. Adding gagne gives them 14 forwards. If they send back laughton they are down to 3 mil over. Sending down bourdon and gervias at a combined 1.4 mil leaves them over the limit at 1.6 million. If they can slide that bonus money of 2.8 million they will have 1.2 in actual space and not needed ltir pronger or mez.

Well in order to get the most of Pronger's space they need to be as close to the cap limit as possible (i think), Bourdon and Gus can't be sent down without passing through waivers first.

So hard to tell what they will do next...

Edited August 6, 2013 by OccamsRazor

[doom88]

What if the website is just out of date? It is the off season.

[radoran]

Not exactly, but they won't get the maximum relief if they're not at the cap limit. They'd get ~2.9 in relief for Pronger if they were 2 million under when they place him on LTIR, for example.

They have to make moves to get cap compliant, but a trade isn't necessary as of right now. However, some of the moves involve risk, because they have very few players that are waiver exempt at the moment.

Point taken. Should have been more precise that at just under $60M they do start to get some space back. It's just not the "more cap space" that it gets conflated into.

I don't believe that Meszaros is sandbagging "to stay here." I don't believe he would try to stop a trade. He's got a year left and if he's going to get a good next deal he's going to need to play a solid, healthy season.

Could it be a way to use his cap hit to free up cap space by trading him, holding part of his cap hit and getting closer to allowing the Pronger exemption to kick in. Or am I nuts?

[Polaris922]

Remember... As @aziz and I found out digging in another thread, you can actually be over by Pronger's cap hit the last day of camp. You never really have to be under it if he's injured. That was straight from the CBA.

[Lindbergh31]

Greetings:

I just went to the Flyers's website and noted that Andej M is still on the injured reserve list.

http://flyers.nhl.com/club/roster.htm

If not mistaken, Homer first said he should be cleared at the end of June, then it was the end of July.

I think his days of playing with Flyers...or anywhere for that matter, may be over. That would knock another 4.5 mill of the cap. Obviously, for his sake and the team's, I hope my assessment is off. We saw what he can do if healthy. But "if" is the operative term here...and I really wonder. CP may have company in the rafters.

Best,

Howie

Hopefully that's the case, maybe if he's still on IR that he starts the season on there which would give the young defensemen a chance at playing.

[radoran]

Remember... As @aziz and I found out digging in another thread, you can actually be over by Pronger's cap hit the last day of camp. You never really have to be under it if he's injured. That was straight from the CBA.

When do they need to be under the cap? I'm not disagreeing, just bemoaning the idiocy of these byzantine rules.

The accounts I have read indicate that some sort of move will need to be made - Mesazros/Couturier/etc. to the A, for example - before they can get Pronger on the LTIR.

Happy to learn.

[doom88]

When do they need to be under the cap? I'm not disagreeing, just bemoaning the idiocy of these byzantine rules.

The accounts I have read indicate that some sort of move will need to be made - Mesazros/Couturier/etc. to the A, for example - before they can get Pronger on the LTIR.

Happy to learn.

That's because no one *knows* the salary cap rules.

[aziz]

When do they need to be under the cap? I'm not disagreeing, just bemoaning the idiocy of these byzantine rules.

from what polaris showed me, it sounds like never. sounds like the LTIR kicks in the second the 10% overage allowance goes away, so actual cap compliance is not required. or, possibly, a player who ends the season on the LTIR is considered on LTIR throughout the offseason? i dunno, as you say: byzantine.

The accounts I have read indicate that some sort of move will need to be made - Mesazros/Couturier/etc. to the A, for example - before they can get Pronger on the LTIR.

i saw a few articles saying the flyers had to get below the cap to make full use of the LTIR allowance, and that would require trades. that was false, though; being pronger's salary's worth over the cap at season start accomplishes the same thing.

[radoran]

from what polaris showed me, it sounds like never. sounds like the LTIR kicks in the second the 10% overage allowance goes away, so actual cap compliance is not required. or, possibly, a player who ends the season on the LTIR is considered on LTIR throughout the offseason? i dunno, as you say: byzantine.

i saw a few articles saying the flyers had to get below the cap to make full use of the LTIR allowance, and that would require trades. that was false, though; being pronger's salary's worth over the cap at season start accomplishes the same thing.

I'm certainly not talking about local Philly media

The upshot appears to be Gagne playing "good soldier" and giving the team time.

I wasn't sure (and still amn't) that a player didn't need to be rostered* before going to LTIR. I've just never been clear on that. Will check some other threads.

* that's right. A triple negative. That's how ridiculous this all is.

[aziz]

@radoran

polaris copied in an example from the new cba specifically illustrating the use of ltir space from a player injured during camp to deal with opening day cap compliance. transitioning off-season overage immediately to ltir allowance. maybe he can find it again.

[AJgoal]

http://cdn.agilitycms.com/nhlpacom/PDF/NHL_NHLPA_2013_CBA.pdf

Section 50.10. No time to navigate to it right now.

[Digityman]

I believe this is the section AJ was referring too. My comments in red.

General Illustration:

A Player with a Player Salary of $1.5 million becomes unfit to play for

more than 24 calendar days and 10 NHL Regular Season games. At the

time the Player becomes unfit to play, his Club has an Averaged Club

Salary of $69.5 million, and the Upper Limit in that League Year is $70

million. The Club may replace the unfit-to-play Player with another

Player or Players with an aggregate Player Salary and Bonuses of up to

$1.5 million. The first $500,000 of such replacement Player Salary and

Bonuses shall count toward the Club's Averaged Club Salary, bringing the

Averaged Club Salary to the Upper Limit. The Club may then exceed the

Upper Limit by up to another $1 million as a result of the replacement

Player Salary and Bonuses. However, if the unfit-to-play Player once

again becomes fit to play, and the Club has not otherwise created any

Payroll Room during the interim period, then the Player shall not be

permitted to rejoin the Club until such time as the Club reduces its

Averaged Club Salary to below the Upper Limit.

Prior to Opening Day Illustrations:

Illustration #1: (Doesn't apply - no loaning of players)

The Upper Limit in a League Year is $70.0 million. On

the last day of Training Camp, a Club has an Averaged Club Salary of

$71.5 million (excluding Earnable Performance Bonuses up to the full

amount of the Performance Bonus Cushion). A Player who has an SPC

with an Averaged Amount of $2.0 million becomes unfit to play on the

last day of Training Camp, and on the same day, the Club Loans a Player

who has an SPC with an Averaged Amount of $1.5 million to the minors,

decreasing its Averaged Club Salary to $70.0 million. On Opening Day,

the Club exercises the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception on

the unfit-to-play Player. The Club may then replace the unfit-to-play

Player with any Player or Players who have SPCs with an (aggregate)

Averaged Amount of $2.0 million. If these replacements are made on

Opening Day and are maintained through the conclusion of the season, the

Club's Averaged Club Salary is $72.0 million, as the Club is permitted to

exceed the Upper Limit by $2.0 million because of the Bona-Fide LongTerm Injury/Illness Exception.

Illustration #2: (Again, no loaning)

The Upper Limit in a League Year is $70.0 million. On

the last day of Training Camp, a Club has an Averaged Club Salary of $71

million (excluding Earnable Performance Bonuses up to the full amount of

the Performance Bonus Cushion). On the last day of Training Camp, a

Player who has an SPC with an Averaged Amount of $2.0 million

becomes unfit to play. On the same day, the Club Loans two Players who

have SPCs with an aggregate Averaged Amount of $2.0 million to the

minors, decreasing its Averaged Club Salary to $69 million. The Club

then acquires a Player who has an SPC with an Averaged Amount of $1

million increasing its Averaged Club Salary to $70 million. Subsequently,

on Opening Day, the Club exercises the Bona-Fide Long-Term

Injury/Illness Exception on the unfit-to-play Player. The Club may then

replace that Player with Players who have SPCs with an (aggregate)

Averaged Amount of $2.0 million. If these replacements are made on

Opening Day and are maintained through the conclusion of the season, the

Club's Averaged Club Salary is $72.0 million, as the Club is permitted to

exceed the Upper Limit by $2.0 million because of the Bona-Fide LongTerm Injury/Illness Exception/

Illustration #3: (No loaning, again)

The Upper Limit in a League Year is $70.0 million. On

the last day of Training Camp, a Club has an Averaged Club Salary of

$71.4 million (excluding Earnable Performance Bonuses up to the full

amount of the Performance Bonus Cushion). A Player who has an SPC

with an Averaged Amount of $2.0 million becomes unfit to play on the

last day of Training Camp, and on the same day, the Club Loans two

Players who have SPCs with an aggregate Averaged Amount of $2.0

million to the minors, decreasing its Averaged Club Salary to $69.4

million. The Club then acquires a Player who has an SPC with an

Averaged Amount of $550,000, increasing its Averaged Club Salary to

$69.95 million. Subsequently, on Opening Day, the Club exercises the

Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception on the unfit-to-play

Player. The Club may then replace the unfit-to-play Player with any

Player or Players who have SPCs with an (aggregate) Averaged Amount

of $2.0 million. If these replacements are made on Opening Day and are

maintained through the conclusion of the season, the Club's Averaged

Club Salary is $71.95 million, as the Club is permitted to exceed the

Upper Limit by $1.95 million because of the Bona-Fide Long-Term

Injury/Illness Exception.

Illustration #4: (This to me is the most simple explanation of Pronger's situation.

I read it as if the player is LTIR through the year (Pronger will be) the club can be over by that amount all year)

The Upper Limit in a League Year is $70.0 million. A

Player who has an SPC with an Averaged Amount of $2.0 million

becomes unfit to play on the last day of Training Camp, and on the same

day, his Club exercises the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception

on such Player. On Opening Day, the Club has an Averaged Club Salary

of $71.5 million (excluding Earnable Performance Bonuses up to the full

amount of the Performance Bonus Cushion). The Club is deemed to have

already fully replaced the unfit-to-play Player with any Player or Players

on the Opening Day Roster. If these replacements are maintained through

the conclusion of the season, the Club's Averaged Club Salary is $71.5

million, as the Club is permitted to exceed the Upper Limit by $1.5

million because of the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception.

[radoran]

My concern with this is that Pronger isn't "injured in camp." Still not sure about the provisions. May take a stab at it...

As I read Provision 1, however, they still have to make room for Pronger on day one of the season (loaning the player to the AHL) before they can put him on LTIR.

[aziz]

@radoran

this part, though:

becomes unfit to play on the last day of Training Camp, and on the same

day, his Club exercises the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception

on such Player

suggests that the LTIR can be exercised on the last day of camp, "on the same day", i.e., before the 1st day of the season.

the "becomes unfit to play on the last day of Training Camp" seems irrelevant, only there to establish the player was injured as of that last day. because i can't see what difference, say, the day before the last day of camp would make as far as LTIR goes. or the day before that, or a year and a half before that.

how i read it, anyway.

Edited August 7, 2013 by aziz

[radoran]

@radoran

this part, though:

suggests that the LTIR can be exercised on the last day of camp, "on the same day", i.e., before the 1st day of the season.

the "becomes unfit to play on the last day of Training Camp" seems irrelevant, only there to establish the player was injured as of that last day. because i can't see what difference, say, the day before the last day of camp would make as far as LTIR goes. or the day before that, or a year and a half before that.

how i read it, anyway.

And it is a reasonable way to read it.

I'm just curious if they player needs to have been "in camp" (i.e. is this a "you lost a guy in a freak training camp accident" exemption).

Regardless, again from Illustration 1

A Player who has an SPC

with an Averaged Amount of $2.0 million becomes unfit to play on the

last day of Training Camp, and on the same day, the Club Loans a Player

who has an SPC with an Averaged Amount of $1.5 million to the minors,

decreasing its Averaged Club Salary to $70.0 million. On Opening Day,

the Club exercises the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception on

the unfit-to-play Player. The Club may then replace the unfit-to-play

Player with any Player or Players who have SPCs with an (aggregate)

Averaged Amount of $2.0 million.

As I read that, regardless of whether the injury happened "in camp" or not, the player (Pronger) is still - on opening day - on the roster with another player (Couturier, Meszaros, etc.) "loaned" to the AHL to make room. The injured player (Pronger) is then LTIRed and the "loaned" player is returned with the resulting cap room.

I believe you can't "loan" an injured player, so Pronger still has to be on the roster on Day One before he can be moved down(?)