Masons Agent: Worth Carey Price Money

[AMMOnation]

Oh hell.. I'll take the WD40 to the fire on this one. Not that it really matters with the salary cap making a huge jump next year to 71.1 million.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/steve-mason-agent-believes-client-worth-carey-price-213608521--nhl.html

Edited December 10, 2013 by AMMOnation

[brelic]

Haha, well, it's not surprising really. Thun is just doing his job. He's starting at the top range of what Mason *could* get.

To me, a 3-year, $12M deal sounds fair. It rewards him for this year's stellar play (so far), but also keeps him hungry for the next contract. At the same time, it insulates the team from another albatross contract if his play this year is an outlier.

So we can expect an 8 year, $48M deal on January 1. Hello, Steve Price.

[ruxpin]

@brelic

 

I think your $4M/yr is about right.  I wouldn't be unhappy with $16M/4YR either, but if you can do the three, terrific.

 

I really like what Mason has done this year, and I'm still suspicious of Price.   But comparing a guy who has played well over 30 games with a guy with Price's body of work (despite the fact I'm not really a fan) is either an agent doing his job or extreme absurdity.

[radoran]

$6.5M?? Carey Price isn't worth Carey Price money.

 

And at least Price has had the chance to choke in the playoffs five times.

 

Mason's 4.27/.878, 0-4 playoff record certainly works against him here.

 

Flyers should be able to get a bridge deal with Mason, as he is a RFA and clearly seems to be happy in Philly. Probably 2 or 3 years - more likely two (Price's second deal was two years as well).

[flyercanuck]

Only Masons agent...and maybe Holmgren would think he's worth that kind of money after half a season.

[FreakinFlyersFan]

$4mil a year tops! Bob won the Vezina last year and he's not making Price's salary.

Fairy Price makes $6.5mil a season?...really? :wacko:

Edited December 10, 2013 by FreakinFlyersFan

[Mad Dog]

$4mil a year tops! Bob won the Vezina last year and he's not making Price's salary.

Fairy Price makes $6.5mil a season?...really? :wacko:

 Agreed.  Based purely on the games he played so far, I will give him $4 mil and not a nickel more.  Not until he proves this is not a fluke.

[OccamsRazor]

To me, a 3-year, $12M deal sounds fair.

 

 

DING! DING! DING!

[OccamsRazor]

So we can expect an 8 year, $48M deal on January 1

 

 

DING! DING! DING!

[brelic]

DING! DING! DING!

 

LOL!

[Polaris922]

I'm of the same thinking as @radoran ... Carey Price is overpaid for what he brings, how can a guy like Mason be worth that as well?  He's doing well for you guys, but a couple of months work isn't really what you judge a $6.5 million a year contract on.  

 

Or is it these days?   :blink:

[Jmdodgesrt4]

He's an rfa. Prolly be a bridge deal. However I can see the max contract hit for six a year. I mean...... Look at the other contracts we have done. Lol

[ruxpin]

I'm of the same thinking as @radoran ... Carey Price is overpaid for what he brings, how can a guy like Mason be worth that as well? He's doing well for you guys, but a couple of months work isn't really what you judge a $6.5 million a year contract on.

Or is it these days? :blink:

Agree with you on both Price and Mason

[brelic]

I'm of the same thinking as @radoran ... Carey Price is overpaid for what he brings, how can a guy like Mason be worth that as well?

Some might argue that Letang is overpaid for what he brings, and will be paid like that until he's 35. But is he worth that much to the Pens? Someone thought so. I think it's the same with Price. Some on the outside might think he's overpaid, but for his value to the Montreal Canadiens, he's worth it. He's their homegrown pick, and is a bona fide #1 NHL goalie.

Is Giroux worth $8M on the Pens? The Sharks? The Hawks? Probably not. But he is to the Flyers. Players can and are compared to their peers around the league, and of course that makes sense. But there's also a component that can't be compared, and that's how much the organization believes he's worth to the team.

So is Mason a $6M goalie to Philly? I sure as hell hope he won't get that much for cap reasons, but considering what the team has been through with goalies - especially with Bryzaster - and you know what, paying about $500k more than what you paid Bryzgalov for infinitely better goaltending doesn't sound so bad

[radoran]

Some might argue that Letang is overpaid for what he brings, and will be paid like that until he's 35. But is he worth that much to the Pens? Someone thought so. I think it's the same with Price. Some on the outside might think he's overpaid, but for his value to the Montreal Canadiens, he's worth it. He's their homegrown pick, and is a bona fide #1 NHL goalie.

Is Giroux worth $8M on the Pens? The Sharks? The Hawks? Probably not. But he is to the Flyers. Players can and are compared to their peers around the league, and of course that makes sense. But there's also a component that can't be compared, and that's how much the organization believes he's worth to the team.

So is Mason a $6M goalie to Philly? I sure as hell hope he won't get that much for cap reasons, but considering what the team has been through with goalies - especially with Bryzaster - and you know what, paying about $500k more than what you paid Bryzgalov for infinitely better goaltending doesn't sound so bad

 

There is a significant difference between the negotiating positions of UFA Letang and RFA Mason. Likewise Price when he signed his deals. Also, the structure of Bryz's (UFA) contract had him making MUCH more than his cap hit early in the deal.

 

The Mason Situation BEGS for a "bridge deal" that benefits both sides - and something in the $3-4M range for 2-4 years appears to me to make the most sense.

 

Also, Giroux is not worth $8M to the Flyers. The organization believed that Hartnell was worth $4.75M for six years - how's that working out for them.

[ruxpin]

Some might argue that Letang is overpaid for what he brings, and will be paid like that until he's 35. But is he worth that much to the Pens? Someone thought so. I think it's the same with Price. Some on the outside might think he's overpaid, but for his value to the Montreal Canadiens, he's worth it. He's their homegrown pick, and is a bona fide #1 NHL goalie.

Is Giroux worth $8M on the Pens? The Sharks? The Hawks? Probably not. But he is to the Flyers. Players can and are compared to their peers around the league, and of course that makes sense. But there's also a component that can't be compared, and that's how much the organization believes he's worth to the team.

So is Mason a $6M goalie to Philly? I sure as hell hope he won't get that much for cap reasons, but considering what the team has been through with goalies - especially with Bryzaster - and you know what, paying about $500k more than what you paid Bryzgalov for infinitely better goaltending doesn't sound so bad

 

At first gloss I was okay with all of that, but here's the thing.

 

My question when looking at/justifying some of these salaries is "Would they have gotten that or near it elsewhere?"

 

In the case of Letang, I actually believe he would have gotten close to that or equal to.  When he's 35 maybe Pens fans won't be happy with the cap hit, but I don't doubt he could have gotten something similar on the open market.

 

Would Giroux have gotten $8M on the open market?   Arguably yes.   

 

With Price, I'm really not sure to be honest.  Perhaps he's a case where what you describe is true.  But if a GM is competing only against himself at a given amount, why do it?   I don't know.   The guy flat out sucks in the playoffs.  And I don't put him in the same category as some of the other more elite goaltenders.   With the goalie market the last few years, I don't know that he gets that on the market.  If he's worth THAT much to the Habs, then, I'm not quite sure why.

 

Mason is not worth $5+ to the Flyers, in my opinion.   He's a situation where he's an RFA and, again, due to the goalie market I don't see him being given an offer sheet by anyone.  If they do and it's in excess of $5M, then take the picks and run.   I think the "bridge contract" folks are right and it's $4M per for a couple years.

[brelic]

There is a significant difference between the negotiating positions of UFA Letang and RFA Mason.

 

Yep, RFAs don't have quite the same leverage that UFAs do... but it's not inconceivable that someone would offer sheet Price-money if he makes it to Jul 1 unsigned. Highly unlikely that it happens though. 

 

But all of this is missing the point. The Pens believed Letang was worth AT LEAST $58M ($7.25M per year for the next 8 years) playing for this team (NMC/modified NTC). 

 

Also, Giroux is not worth $8M to the Flyers.

 

Evidently he is, because the Flyers signed him to such a contract. You might not think he's worth it. But the organization who actually signs the cheques does.

 

The organization believed that Hartnell was worth $4.75M for six years - how's that working out for them.

 

Hey, I never claimed that they made smart decisions. In my mind, I think their bad decisions outweigh the good ones (in quantity and in impact). I was reading an old Flyers article this morning from 2010, and it mentioned 14 players. Not a single one of them is still here. 

 

So how much is a new, young captain, and perhaps a newfound sense of stability worth to the Flyers? My guess is about $8M a year.

The Mason Situation BEGS for a "bridge deal" that benefits both sides - and something in the $3-4M range for 2-4 years appears to me to make the most sense.

 

Agreed on the Flyers side. But how does a bridge deal benefit Mason? Financially speaking, long guaranteed contracts in the 8 year range are better.

[radoran]

Agreed on the Flyers side. But how does a bridge deal benefit Mason? Financially speaking, long guaranteed contracts in the 8 year range are better.

 

The Flyers can qualify him for less than $2M - he can't go anywhere. He can sign a 2-4 year deal for $3-4M. Like was said, if someone offers him more, you consider taking the picks. And then you offer sheet their players

 

I'm sure Giroux would have liked an eight year deal when he signed his "bridge" but he likely got a LOT more after the bridge than he would have had he signed as an RFA.

 

And, I'll agree on the semantics of "he's worth $8M to the Flyers" because the Flyers are paying him that. My comment would be that he's not worth $8M as a player, which was the Hartnell reference.

 

By the same token, Bryzgalov wasn't "worth" the $10M they paid him in 10-11 or the $6.5M they paid him last year. Nevertheless, semantically he was "worth" that to the Flyers because they paid him that...

[brelic]

The Flyers can qualify him for less than $2M - he can't go anywhere. He can sign a 2-4 year deal for $3-4M. Like was said, if someone offers him more, you consider taking the picks. And then you offer sheet their players
 
I'm sure Giroux would have liked an eight year deal when he signed his "bridge" but he likely got a LOT more after the bridge than he would have had he signed as an RFA.

 

Ok, I see what you mean. You're saying that the annual average salary will be higher once he's out of his bridge.

 

Of course, the flip side argument is that Mason's play stagnates or he gets injured and never gets to sniff that post-bridge contract. 

 

And, I'll agree on the semantics of "he's worth $8M to the Flyers" because the Flyers are paying him that. My comment would be that he's not worth $8M as a player, which was the Hartnell reference.
 
By the same token, Bryzgalov wasn't "worth" the $10M they paid him in 10-11 or the $6.5M they paid him last year. Nevertheless, semantically he was "worth" that to the Flyers because they paid him that...

 

I wasn't trying to be smarmy and use semantics as my argument What I was trying to say is that the Flyers judged that the player they drafted, and counted on to take the reins after shipping out the previous captain, had become the face of the franchise, and is worth $8M a year to them. That means asses in the seats, 28/GIROUX jerseys everywhere, public appearances, and a public face of the Philadelphia Flyers. 

 

And, as painful as it was to watch Snider do the same thing over and over again, throwing money at the goalie problem and "solving" it for the next 9 years was worth $60M to the organization.

 

It didn't work out because the organization is bad at evaluating how much players are worth. We've seen bad contract after bad contract. They really seem to conduct business based on emotion, with knee-jerk reactions changing the entire direction of the franchise just about every year or two. In fact, most owners act that way... it's just that Homer/Snider are the most egregious examples of it.

 

Ryan Clowe? David Clarkson? 

 

Just because we don't think they're worth it doesn't mean that those teams aren't super convinced that they got fair value.

 

I mean, Hartnell is making more money than JVR, and they both have the same length contract. Homer gave out both of those... I can't figure it out. 

[radoran]

Ok, I see what you mean. You're saying that the annual average salary will be higher once he's out of his bridge.

 

Of course, the flip side argument is that Mason's play stagnates or he gets injured and never gets to sniff that post-bridge contract. 

 

Well, obviously. But he just doesn't have the leverage - and I don't know any player that makes decisions based upon the concept that he "might get injured."

 

But, with that in mind, I can also see the following scenario:

 

Agent: I think my client is worth the same amount as Carey Price!

Homer: Here's an offer for three years at $3.5M per.

Agent: $6.5M or bust, buddy! C'mon he's worth it!

Homer: Here's your $1.5M qualifying offer. See you in camp. By the way, we were really impressed with how Emery played this season, we might need a longer look at him next season.

 

Agent: Take the $1.5M, Steve, You'll get much more after next season (your 7th in the league, qualifying you as a UFA)

Mason: What if I get hurt?? Why don't I just take the $10.5M on the table??

 

 

I wasn't trying to be smarmy and use semantics as my argument What I was trying to say is that the Flyers judged that the player they drafted, and counted on to take the reins after shipping out the previous captain, had become the face of the franchise, and is worth $8M a year to them. That means asses in the seats, 28/GIROUX jerseys everywhere, public appearances, and a public face of the Philadelphia Flyers. 

 

And, as painful as it was to watch Snider do the same thing over and over again, throwing money at the goalie problem and "solving" it for the next 9 years was worth $60M to the organization.

 

It didn't work out because the organization is bad at evaluating how much players are worth. We've seen bad contract after bad contract. They really seem to conduct business based on emotion, with knee-jerk reactions changing the entire direction of the franchise just about every year or two. In fact, most owners act that way... it's just that Homer/Snider are the most egregious examples of it.

 

Ryan Clowe? David Clarkson? 

 

Just because we don't think they're worth it doesn't mean that those teams aren't super convinced that they got fair value.

 

I mean, Hartnell is making more money than JVR, and they both have the same length contract. Homer gave out both of those... I can't figure it out. 

 

The Flyers sell out every game and are among the top sellers in merchandise every year - even without "the best player this one time, in band camp, on a shift two years ago."

 

The JVR deal was a great deal for the Flyers (so were the Richards/Crater deals). But JVR was also looking to be a "bridge deal" into his UFA status as well, despite the length.

 

Richards and Crater were the type of deals you give to the player you drafted, you developed and you want to build the franchise around so that you will put butts in seats long term and sell a lot of 18RICHARDS and 17CRATER jerseys. Coincidentally, you still see a lot of them wandering around the Big Bank Building because they didn't go to the jersey store and get HALL or SIMMONDS nameplates.

 

The Flyers may get the "worth" of $8M from having Giroux on the roster, but I think we'll agree that right now he's not providing $8M of worth on the ice - especially in comparison to other players in that category.

 

With the obvious caveat that his $8M contract starts next season

[brelic]

Well, obviously. But he just doesn't have the leverage - and I don't know any player that makes decisions based upon the concept that he "might get injured."
 
But, with that in mind, I can also see the following scenario:
 
Agent: I think my client is worth the same amount as Carey Price!
Homer: Here's an offer for three years at $3.5M per.
Agent: $6.5M or bust, buddy! C'mon he's worth it!
Homer: Here's your $1.5M qualifying offer. See you in camp. By the way, we were really impressed with how Emery played this season, we might need a longer look at him next season.
 
Agent: Take the $1.5M, Steve, You'll get much more after next season (your 7th in the league, qualifying you as a UFA)
Mason: What if I get hurt?? Why don't I just take the $10.5M on the table??

 

Fair enough. I guess my point makes more sense for UFAs. He could file for arbitration, especially if he finishes with numbers similar to what he's posting now. That would get him a $4-4.5M award. But arbitration is messy and usually ends up with lots of hurt feelings and bad faith.

 

The bridge deal will be worth a lot more than a one year qualifying offer and a lonely road to arbitration.

 

The Flyers sell out every game and are among the top sellers in merchandise every year - even without "the best player this one time, in band camp, on a shift two years ago."

 

How about the dark years pre-Lindros? WIthout Giroux on this team, that's what we'd look like. Heck, we look like that now only with more future promise. I don't live in Philly so I don't know what it's like when the team truly stinks and doesn't have a 'star'.

 

Richards and Crater were the type of deals you give to the player you drafted, you developed and you want to build the franchise around so that you will put butts in seats long term and sell a lot of 18RICHARDS and 17CRATER jerseys. Coincidentally, you still see a lot of them wandering around the Big Bank Building because they didn't go to the jersey store and get HALL or SIMMONDS nameplates.
 
The Flyers may get the "worth" of $8M from having Giroux on the roster, but I think we'll agree that right now he's not providing $8M of worth on the ice - especially in comparison to other players in that category.
 
With the obvious caveat that his $8M contract starts next season

 

100% agreed that Giroux is not playing like an $8M player. But I think we can definitely agree that he's worth every penny of his $3,75M, 5th highest paid forward that he actually is.

 

Now, if he looks like this next year, we'll be having a very different conversation! The Flyers will have shipped him out by then for a first rounder, Nathan Beaulieu, and Gallagher.

 

And Couturier will be named captain.

[Digityman]

@brelic  3 for 12$ is a good deal all around.

Anything more and, well, it's Homerish?

[brelic]

@brelic  3 for 12$ is a good deal all around.

Anything more and, well, it's Homerish?

 

Agreed! I like Mason and I think we've found our guy. That being said, 3-years is plenty to find out if he can sustain it long-term. And not too long that it's an anchor.

[Polaris922]

@brelic

I see Price as Fleury with less success. And I think Fleury is overpaid at $5 mill. I'll agree with you that people are willing to pay it, but that doesn't mean they're not fools. These are the same people that lock out players to save themselves from their own ridiculous spending.

[brelic]

@brelic

I see Price as Fleury with less success. And I think Fleury is overpaid at $5 mill. I'll agree with you that people are willing to pay it, but that doesn't mean they're not fools. These are the same people that lock out players to save themselves from their own ridiculous spending.

Maybe, but if I had the choice, I would pick Price 10 out of 10 times. On bad/mediocre Montreal teams, Price's numbers have been similar or better than Fleury, who plays on a stacked team that is a yearly contender.

But even comparisons aside, what is a Stanley Cup winning goaltender worth? Quick won the Cup, and then they gave him a 10-year/$58m contract. Call me crazy, but I don't think he's going to be good until he's 38 years old. Just another example of a terrible contract. BUT, he won a Cup for LA, and they judged he was "worth" that kind of money, future performance be damned.

Price signed his contract now, in today's market. Fleury signed his 6 years ago. WHen his contract expires after next season, what do you think he'll expect? Less than his current $5M? Or something like Price money? I'm pretty sure he will get north of $6M. And that's the amount he will be "worth" to whatever owner dishes that out.

So, as you say, these are the same fools that locked out players because salaries were too high and it was unsustainable. You can't make this stuff up!