G not on Olympic Team Canada...wow

[JackStraw]

First of all, Couture was news to me, which particularly sucks since he's on my damn fantasy team!

Second. You had to go back to 2010 to tell me what a beast Nash was? Seriously? I'm sorry, but I get why that gets him on the team in 2010. What does that have to do with 2014? The guy is one of the most overrated players in the league. GIROUX had a good 2010 too. And I'm not even lobbying for Giroux. I understand this is not an all-star team. That's another reason Nash doesn't belong.

I'm not sure what you're referring to with Lucic. Skating? Overblown. He's still a better choice than Nash.

Again, I really don't care and it's not a travesty, but there were several better choices IMO

I'm talking about Nash at the 2010 Olympics. He was arguably Canada's best forward. He has a reputation of playing better in international tourneys than in the NHL. Go figure. Lucic... yes skating and the fact that his game (power forward who takes a lot of penalties) doesn't really work on the big ice. I'd definitely go with Nash over him. All that said, I'd definitely take either Giroux or MSL at wing over Carter. And I always kind of liked Carter.

[jammer2]

I'm talking about Nash at the 2010 Olympics. He was arguably Canada's best forward. He has a reputation of playing better in international tourneys than in the NHL. Go figure. Lucic... yes skating and the fact that his game (power forward who takes a lot of penalties) doesn't really work on the big ice. I'd definitely go with Nash over him. All that said, I'd definitely take either Giroux or MSL at wing over Carter. And I always kind of liked Carter.

Yep, there were games in the Vancouver Olympics where Nash stole the show, and that is not the first time he has starred for Team Canada. He has been dominant in international play. Kind of the same way that Mats Sundin looked like a different player for Sweden. Funny, Mats took a lot of heat for that, but not a mention of Nash being a star for Canada but just slightly above average with his NHL squads. There games in Van where Nash dominated, the smaller teams had no answer for his power bull rushing game.

[doom88]

Speaking of 2010, how did Mike Richards not make the roster? He's an excellent shutdown player with skill.

[JackStraw]

Yep, there were games in the Vancouver Olympics where Nash stole the show, and that is not the first time he has starred for Team Canada. He has been dominant in international play. Kind of the same way that Mats Sundin looked like a different player for Sweden. Funny, Mats took a lot of heat for that, but not a mention of Nash being a star for Canada but just slightly above average with his NHL squads. There games in Van where Nash dominated, the smaller teams had no answer for his power bull rushing game.

I remember those games well. He was pretty much unstoppable. His line with Richards and Toews was Canada's best over the course of the tournament I thought. And Nash is a good skater, I think his game will work well on the big ice.

[JackStraw]

Speaking of 2010, how did Mike Richards not make the roster? He's an excellent shutdown player with skill.

Bergeron.

[Polaris922]

Sorry gents... But Neal belongs there, as does Kunitz, before any name seen here except maybe MSL.

[flyercanuck]

Anyone who thinks Giroux could use the rest....you realize Timonen, and Streit are both playing. Now those guys could use the rest. Actually, Streit gets his rest when the opposition is in our end.

 

And I'll bet whoever wins the cup this year has several non-rested Olympians on their team.

 

The experience would have done Giroux more good than any rest.

[ruxpin]

I'm talking about Nash at the 2010 Olympics. He was arguably Canada's best forward. He has a reputation of playing better in international tourneys than in the NHL. Go figure. Lucic... yes skating and the fact that his game (power forward who takes a lot of penalties) doesn't really work on the big ice. I'd definitely go with Nash over him. All that said, I'd definitely take either Giroux or MSL at wing over Carter. And I always kind of liked Carter.

2010 Olympics - yeah, okay. That does actually make sense. Other international competitions for him too.

Okay. I still think he votes blows in the NHL, though :-)

[radoran]

I am reading reporters talking about how Crater is a "natural wing" as a reason for his selection. Drafted as a centre, playing centre his entire life and playing primarily centre for the Flyers, he started playing wing more often only in the past few years. Hardly a "natural wing."

 

And many say Giroux is, of course, a "natural centre" - drafted as a wing, playing wing his entire life and playing primarily wing until he was put between Jagr and Hartnell two years ago. Hardly a "natural centre."

 

I don't at all mind guys trying to find reasons that Giroux was "snubbed" (a ridiculous line, given the talent present on the Canadian squad), but making **** up out of whole cloth is no way to do it. Hard to believe the revisionist history which is being played out by people who simply have to know better.

 

I do think that his injury over the summer - and failure to attend some Team Canada functions - may have played a role. That's to Giroux's credit, actually. He was more focused on the team that is paying him and of which he is the captain. That's his job.

 

I also think his "breakout" season with Jagr and then PPG regression without the Hall of Fame forward may have played a role. As it stands his 93-point season is an outlier more than an indication of his consistent play. Those numbers also skew the "past three seasons" numbers which many are also citing. His slow starts the past two years obviously didn't help either.

 

Again, Giroux is an "Olympic-worthy" player. It's just that Canada has a surfeit of "Olympic-worthy" players. In that situation there are going to be "Olympic-worthy" players who simply can't make the cut.

 

Has nothing to do with being "snubbed."

[JackStraw]

Sorry gents... But Neal belongs there, as does Kunitz, before any name seen here except maybe MSL.

 

There is only one reason why Kunitz is on the team and it's spelled C-r-o-s-b-y. Everyone who isn't a Penguins fan (and many who are) know this. MSL and Giroux are both better players than either Neal or Kunitz and as someone rooting for the USA I'd rather see my team facing Kunitz or Neal than MSL or Giroux.

[murraycraven]

There is only one reason why Kunitz is on the team and it's spelled C-r-o-s-b-y. Everyone who isn't a Penguins fan (and many who are) know this. MSL and Giroux are both better players than either Neal or Kunitz and as someone rooting for the USA I'd rather see my team facing Kunitz or Neal than MSL or Giroux.

 

As much as I do not think Giroux belongs on Team Canada I have to agree w/ this 100%. 

 

Giroux really started to pick up his game in the last 11-15 games but was a nonfactor before that.  

[radoran]

As much as I do not think Giroux belongs on Team Canada I have to agree w/ this 100%. 

 

Giroux really started to pick up his game in the last 11-15 games but was a nonfactor before that.  

 

Aside from the five-game pointless drought to start the season and just one goal in the first 20 games, he's been a pretty consistent contributor.

 

That said, many of his points have been of the "Mats Sundin" variety before the period you note (his multipoint games were two blowouts against the Islanders and a blowout against Ottawa). In the past 15 games or so he's had important points against Vancouver, Edmonton, Minnesota, Columbus, Montreal and keyed the comeback against Detroit.

 

ASIDE: Looking at the schedule, kinda crazy that the Flyers have had just four home games since December 1.

[JackStraw]

If I'm picking the team, I'm not going to put too much stock into recent (i.e., 1/2 season) performance. Unless the guy is really stinking it up or is clearly an older guy who just doesn't have it anymore. I'm going to put more stock into what does this player bring to the team, is my team better with this guy than with that guy? Giroux brings more to the table than either Kunitz or Carter (as does MSL) so they're the guys I'd want.

[Polaris922]

@JackStraw

That's pretty funny really. Kunitz goes to the dirty spots as well as anybody in the league, led the league in plus/minus whether he was with Crosby or not, and has scored more goals than Giroux in recent years. One could easily argue that Jagr made Giroux a 90 point guy as he's done nothing to prove otherwise since Jagr left. In fact, take that one season out of the picture and Giroux is in a very similar scoring bracket to Kunitz (despite Crosby's long absences). And don't try to compare +/-.... Not close at all.

Neal is very similar to That but with more goals, fewer assists.

Now look at the current season... Kunitz is 5th in NHL scoring points, 9 ahead of Claudia, while scoring 23 goals, 25 assists and a league leading plus 23 in 45 games.

Neal is even better per game with 16 goals and 19 assists, for 35 points in ONLY 25 games, mostly without any star center to skate with, unless you really love Jussi Jokinen.

Now where's Giroux? 20th in the league at 13/26/39 in 43 games. Factor is a twenty game goalless drought and that his points were in small clusters against certain teams...

Nobody in this world thinks Giroux brings more to the table than Neal, just different things to the table. Things already present in Crosby, Toews, Tavares and Getzlaf. Neal has one of the best shots in the league and is outplaying Giroux handily this year. Kunitz is way ahead of Giroux as well this season and is finally earning some recognition for the job he does.

My advice is before you go bashing Kunitz, try watching him play more than a game or two. He brings a level of grit and determination every Canadian should love to see on that team. Not just anybody can play with a guy like Crosby, and you're nuts if you think Crosby would support his presence on his Wing the way he does if he weren't a darn good winger.

And quite frankly, I'm a guy who's thought highly of Giroux, even sticking up for him against Flyers fans here in the past. But right now, Kunitz and Neal have been better players. The stats support that, the team records support that, and just watching all three of them on the ice this season supports that.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Polaris922

[Polaris922]

@JackStraw

And for the record, I'm much more afraid of team Canada with Kunitz on Crosby's wing than with Giroux playing wing for anybody on that roster. Period.

[ruxpin]

I'm okay with Kunitz. I actually liked the guy before he went to Pittsburgh, and he's been terrific and dependable since.

He is a VERY good player. But there are quite a few really very good players not going. The difference make in Kunitz' favor is Crosby. I'm sorry to anyone who wants to quote stats or pretends otherwise.

If hockey Canada was confident, or even willing to risk it, that Crosby could find chemistry with anyone else in such a short tournament, then someone else is going.

I believe SY when he said it was simply a numbers thing and came down to fit. The fit that Kunitz brings is ribbed for her pleasure

[Polaris922]

I'm okay with Kunitz. I actually liked the guy before he went to Pittsburgh, and he's been terrific and dependable since.

He is a VERY good player. But there are quite a few really very good players not going. The difference make in Kunitz' favor is Crosby. I'm sorry to anyone who wants to quote stats or pretends otherwise.

If hockey Canada was confident, or even willing to risk it, that Crosby could find chemistry with anyone else in such a short tournament, then someone else is going.

I believe SY when he said it was simply a numbers thing and came down to fit. The fit that Kunitz brings is ribbed for her pleasure

I won't argue that his chemistry with Crosby has to be a factor in comparison to SOME players in the league right now, but this whole bowel movement of "the only reason he's there" is ridiculous. THAT is why I point out his stars and his play. He earned his way there with or without Crosby. Anyone refusing to see his body of work as his own is just hating. LeClair had Lindros, but it didn't make LeClair less of a player. As can be said for many players in league history. Kunitz is no LeClair, but he has damn sure earned his way onto Team Canada ahead of Giroux and many others this time.

[brelic]

I love the strikethrough in the names of the players who didn't make it. Very visual.

 

Not sure why some names are red and others black... those who were expected from the get go and those who weren't?

 

EDIT: Hey, why is the attach image option gone? I have to link to it now?

[ruxpin]

As can be said for many players in league history. Kunitz is no LeClair, but he has damn sure earned his way onto Team Canada ahead of Giroux and many others this time.

 

Ahead of Giroux, yeah.  I have a hard time arguing for Giroux.  Look, Kunitz does bring something that Giroux simply doesn't:  Pre-packaged chemistry with Crosby.  If your Hockey Canada, I don't even see this as something to hide from.  If you have the best player in the world going in comfortable and knowing exactly what his winger is doing in a two-week tournament, and that winger is no real slouch himself, you HAVE to take that guy over others that might be equal, slightly better, slightly worse, or simply bring other assets.

 

They now have at least two lines that way:   Crosby/Kunitz  and Getzlaf/Perry.   Then you put whomever on the opposite wing.  Maybe Kuntiz plays a little with Getzlaf/Perry like people are talking about, but Kunitz has been in Pitt long enough that I think that connection is a little overblown.  Not complete strangers, though.

 

So, versus Giroux?   First, Giroux would have to go as a RW, since he has no sniff as a centre.   As rad pointed out here or elsewhere, he was drafted and played early as a right winger.  So he'd be fine, but he has been playing center for the better part of three years at least, so he'd be more out of position than Kunitz.  Kunitz at least gets to go and play the position he's been playing (top and behind).

 

You could make a very good case about MSL.   But Kunitz plays the other side, so I'm not even sure it's Kunitz that kept MSL out.   You have to compare MSL with other right wingers.   I'm not sure whether they're thinking Nash for RW or LW.   But if I'm lobbying for MSL, Rick Nash is my target not Kunitz.

 

If we're taking Yzerman at his word and it is a numbers game and it comes down to building a team and selecting based on how pieces fit together and roles that will be assigned, I think Kunitz makes as much sense as anyone among the pool of players left out.   Just saying the deciding factor--and not a minor one--had to be his play with Crosby.

 

I agree with your objection to "the only reason he's there" though.  I really liked John LeClair and would take offense when people said he was all about #88.   His game was certainly elevated, much like Kunitz.  But both are very good players in their own right.

 

Eh, it is what it is.  The selections are not going to make me root for anyone--or even watch it--any more or less.

[brelic]

If we're taking Yzerman at his word and it is a numbers game and it comes down to building a team and selecting based on how pieces fit together and roles that will be assigned, I think Kunitz makes as much sense as anyone among the pool of players left out.   Just saying the deciding factor--and not a minor one--had to be his play with Crosby.

 

Let's say Kunitz played for another team. And let's say he had the 5th most points in the NHL (4th highest Canadian), and 7th most goals (5th most Canadian).

 

Wouldn't it be silly to ignore him? 

 

Crosby connection or not, those are his statistics this year, right now, in the NHL. So who cares how much of that comes with playing on Crosby's wing? That's where he plays. That's where he will play in Sochi. They've found a chemistry that works.

[radoran]

Let's say Kunitz played for another team. And let's say he had the 5th most points in the NHL (4th highest Canadian), and 7th most goals (5th most Canadian).

 

Wouldn't it be silly to ignore him?

 

It would be. But I do think a valid question is whether he's be 5th and 7th if he wasn't playing with Crosby.

 

For example - Pascal Dupuis. Kunitz is a better player than Dupuis, but Dupuis' numbers are certainly inflated by playing with Crosby. There's little secret why he had his best season in a decade when he was playing on Crosby's wing.

 

To be clear, I think Kunitz would still be a 15-20 goal, 40-45 point player. Crosby puts him into the 25/60 range (and the PPG pace he was on in the abbreviated season).

 

In short, I don't think Kunitz makes his own game but he can step his game up to make his overall line better than the sum of its parts.

 

That's what you want in a hockey player - especially in a short tournament.

 

 

Ahead of Giroux, yeah.  I have a hard time arguing for Giroux.  Look, Kunitz does bring something that Giroux simply doesn't:  Pre-packaged chemistry with Crosby.  If your Hockey Canada, I don't even see this as something to hide from.  If you have the best player in the world going in comfortable and knowing exactly what his winger is doing in a two-week tournament, and that winger is no real slouch himself, you HAVE to take that guy over others that might be equal, slightly better, slightly worse, or simply bring other assets.

 

Yeah, this.

 

And the later reference to Getzlaf/Perry. You have a winger who has already shown great ability with two of your potential top line centers.

 

You want to win a short series? You go with that over making up an all-star roster to assuage egos.

[JackStraw]

@JackStraw

That's pretty funny really. Kunitz goes to the dirty spots as well as anybody in the league, led the league in plus/minus whether he was with Crosby or not, and has scored more goals than Giroux in recent years. One could easily argue that Jagr made Giroux a 90 point guy as he's done nothing to prove otherwise since Jagr left. In fact, take that one season out of the picture and Giroux is in a very similar scoring bracket to Kunitz (despite Crosby's long absences). And don't try to compare +/-.... Not close at all.

Neal is very similar to That but with more goals, fewer assists.

Now look at the current season... Kunitz is 5th in NHL scoring points, 9 ahead of Claudia, while scoring 23 goals, 25 assists and a league leading plus 23 in 45 games.

Neal is even better per game with 16 goals and 19 assists, for 35 points in ONLY 25 games, mostly without any star center to skate with, unless you really love Jussi Jokinen.

Now where's Giroux? 20th in the league at 13/26/39 in 43 games. Factor is a twenty game goalless drought and that his points were in small clusters against certain teams...

Nobody in this world thinks Giroux brings more to the table than Neal, just different things to the table. Things already present in Crosby, Toews, Tavares and Getzlaf. Neal has one of the best shots in the league and is outplaying Giroux handily this year. Kunitz is way ahead of Giroux as well this season and is finally earning some recognition for the job he does.

My advice is before you go bashing Kunitz, try watching him play more than a game or two. He brings a level of grit and determination every Canadian should love to see on that team. Not just anybody can play with a guy like Crosby, and you're nuts if you think Crosby would support his presence on his Wing the way he does if he weren't a darn good winger.

And quite frankly, I'm a guy who's thought highly of Giroux, even sticking up for him against Flyers fans here in the past. But right now, Kunitz and Neal have been better players. The stats support that, the team records support that, and just watching all three of them on the ice this season supports that.

 

Very nice. One problem. There is not one GM in the league, not one (even Shero) who would give you Giroux for Kunitz (or Neal) straight up.

 

PS: and that's not bashing either Kunitz or Neal.

Edited January 8, 2014 by JackStraw

[flyercanuck]

@JackStraw

And for the record, I'm much more afraid of team Canada with Kunitz on Crosby's wing than with Giroux playing wing for anybody on that roster. Period.

 

Ya, but then again you think Letang should be on Team Canada.   :blink:

[brelic]

 

 

You want to win a short series? You go with that over making up an all-star roster to assuage egos.

 

Looking at this season right now, one month before the Olympics, Kunitz is playing at an all-star level. He's not Stamkos, he's not Kane. And of course the Crosby chemistry is important. He's the best freaking player in the world. Just like the Getzlaf/Perry chemistry is important.

 

But not important enough to bring in Jumbo Joe, apparently.

 

Or MSL for that matter, but then I'm not sure who you displace.

 

Bottom line, those would be really really tough decisions to make, and any way you slice it, you've got one helluva roster.

[aziz]

led the league in plus/minus whether he was with Crosby or not

 

when was this?  like, this season?  where he has spent a majority of time with crosby?

 

One could easily argue that Jagr made Giroux a 90 point guy as he's done nothing to prove otherwise since Jagr left. In fact, take that one season out of the picture and Giroux is in a very similar scoring bracket to Kunitz (despite Crosby's long absences).

 

and it is obvious crosby made kunitz a ppg guy.  his best season ever before pittsburgh was 60 points in 81 games.  during the seasons crosby missed a ton of time, his point totals were again meh, 48 points in 66 games, 61 points in 82 games.  not bad, but not "should be going to the olympics".  crosby is around full time and suddenly kunitz is over a point per game.  the difference is 95% crosby, 5% kunitz.  similar story to giroux/jagr, except that giroux has been a point per game player outside of his time with jagr.

 

kunitz is an unremarkable player when playing with a "normal" center.  not a dime a dozen, but $1.10 a dozen.

 

with all of that said, the more i think about it, the more it makes sense to send him with crosby.  crosby knows how he plays, knows where he likes to go, what kind of holes he likes to find, what kind of passes he likes to receive, what kind of shots he likes to have.  with a player like crosby, the overall talent level of the winger is less relevant than the center knowing how to give him things he can finish.  there is every likelyhood that putting a future HOF winger on crosby's line doesn't do any better than a functional piece like kunitz.  might do worse, as that HOF might bring his own creativity to the line, and to be honest, that isn't something crosby needs.  like mario, he just needs a guy to finish what crosby creates.  kevin stevens and rob brown were all 66 needed, and giving him more didn't help anything.  

 

in terms of being the better player, giroux wins, i don't really see how there can be a discussion.  in terms of being the better spare part for crosby to work with, i kind of get why they went that direction.

 

as for neal, i agree with you, no arguement.  the guy is a for-real talent.  a complete jackhole, but still.  as you say, he brings a ton to the ice.  different things than giroux, but probably as many.  then again, he IS a complete jackhole, and i wouldn't be surprised if his general unlikeability was a factor in keeping him off the team.